|
Truga posted:anyone who has anything good to say about gaddafi isn't "the left", no matter what they call themselves. I think he is actually talking about people who opposed the Libyan War, that is the only way it makes sense. It is a way of trying to punish the left for standing against US foreign policy. Also, it is a random potshot that really shouldn't anything with the topic at hand. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Aug 16, 2018 |
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 13:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 00:05 |
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Maduro could be a literal potted plant and it still wouldn't justify arguing that Pinochet would be an improvement. I like Allende like I like all my legitimate governments, chosen fairly and freely by those they govern.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 13:48
|
|
|
Mr. Sunshine posted:Thread consensus is that Maduro and PSUV leadership has no business running a country, yes. This is based on testimony by actual Venezuelans posting ITT or posted elsewhere on the internet, by reports by a multitude of NGOs and by countless reports from different media outlets all over the world. When someone pops into the thread trying to paint all of these sources as CIA plants or propaganda outlets while ignoring all the very real crimes of the Venezuelan government and blaming some undefined, nefarious cabal of sabotaging Venezuela out of sheer capitalist evil - then yes, you're going to get poo poo on. They can't possibly entertain the scenario where you would not want Maduro or the US ruling the country. It's not like we hadn't spent the 40 years prior to Chavez' coup being one of the few stable democracies in Latin America. Again, the distortion here occurs from how they can't fathom that Maduro is as awful as their worst neoliberal nightmare would be, with the poor literally starving and dying on the streets and the rich routinely partying in their million dollar homes, chasing coke with champagne. The horrible post-Maduro scenario they keep warning us of is the current reality of Venezuela. I wish, honestly, that I could just put these guys in a cab and tour Las Mercedes at midnight so they would see the decadent and lavish way Chavistas spend their cash. This amazing socialist revolution has people being paid in food to build new nightclubs and parking lots for the rich.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 13:48
|
|
|
Maduro's government is quite clearly a failure, but the question is what does it actually say for "all forms of socialism"? In many ways Maduro if anything is quite a standout in how much he has sucked. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Aug 16, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 13:52
|
|
|
Maduro is a thief, who says stealing billions of dollars is socialism. I hope this helps. Edit: Reply was to your original post that read: "so, is Maduro a socialist and not socialist at the same time?".
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 13:58
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Maduro's government is quite clearly a failure, but the question is what does it actually say for "all forms of socialism"? It definitely acts as more evidence against the 'some jackass steals everything that's not nailed down, uses a hammer he stole to pry the nails out, then steals everything that WAS nailed down, and the nails' form of socialism, which I'd hope most people already recognized wasn't a promising branch.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 13:59
|
|
|
The only thing Maduro's government says about socialism is that as long as you call yourself socialist and rail against the US, the self-proclaimed "anti-imperialist" chucklefucks of the world will defend anything you do.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 14:01
|
|
|
Feinne posted:It definitely acts as more evidence against the 'some jackass steals everything that's not nailed down, uses a hammer he stole to pry the nails out, then steals everything that WAS nailed down, and the nails' form of socialism, which I'd hope most people already recognized wasn't a promising branch. You should tell that to the idiots that come shrieking about imperialism to this thread e:^^^^^beaten
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 14:01
|
|
|
Feinne posted:It definitely acts as more evidence against the 'some jackass steals everything that's not nailed down, uses a hammer he stole to pry the nails out, then steals everything that WAS nailed down, and the nails' form of socialism, which I'd hope most people already recognized wasn't a promising branch. Yeah, but also let's not pretend the collapse of Venezuela is also being used internally in the US. Maduro is a disaster as a leader, but at the same time, it is clear much of the discussion around Venezuela is just an ideological proxy battle which each side is sniping each other, and trying to find leverage over each other in other theatres of conflict. The answer is clear Maduro: is honestly really poo poo, and also US foreign policy and its proxies are poo poo (and so is Russia/China etc). Venezuela is just a further on the "disaster" side of the scale (that said the Middle East has some spicy contenders.)
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 14:08
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Yeah, but also let's not pretend the collapse of Venezuela is also being used internally in the US. Maduro is a disaster as a leader, but at the same time, it is clear much of the discussion around Venezuela is just an ideological proxy battle which each side is sniping each other, and trying to find leverage over each other in other theatres of conflict. It would be way harder to use it internally in the US if soi-disant socialists and anti-imperialists weren't loudly defending him and his sort as fighting anti-imperialist socialism. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 14:21
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:It would be way harder to use it internally in the US if soi-disant socialists and anti-imperialists weren't loudly defending him and his sort as fighting anti-imperialist socialism. Honestly, it probably doesn't really make a difference either way. Americans barely know anti-imperialists exist beyond ghost stories.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 14:28
|
|
|
Chavez had some good ideas, and obviously someone who has some good ideas can't be bad right???
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 14:31
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Yeah, but also let's not pretend the collapse of Venezuela is also being used internally in the US. Maduro is a disaster as a leader, but at the same time, it is clear much of the discussion around Venezuela is just an ideological proxy battle which each side is sniping each other, and trying to find leverage over each other in other theatres of conflict. Oh yeah the right in the US loving loves to trot out Venezuela when making GBS threads on their opponents. It's vexing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 14:35
|
|
|
Feinne posted:Oh yeah the right in the US loving loves to trot out Venezuela when making GBS threads on their opponents. It's vexing. The issue it is without context, specifically Venezuela's rather bizarre way of doing things (it really isn't comparable to the Soviets either). I took there is an ideological sunk-cost fallacy in effect through about Venezuela.To be honest, most of the "pink-wave" has been a pretty mixed bag, but at the same time there doesn't seem to be room for consensus in Latin American politics. Truga posted:Chavez had some good ideas, and obviously someone who has some good ideas can't be bad right??? Honestly, I think the consensus is that Chavez was pretty much a mixed bag, but his ego and cult of personality was especially dangerous since it left a guy like Maduro in charge. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Aug 16, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 15:33
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:The issue it is without context, specifically Venezuela's rather bizarre way of doing things (it really isn't comparable to the Soviets either). I took there is an ideological sunk-cost fallacy in effect through about Venezuela.To be honest, most of the "pink-wave" has been a pretty mixed bag, but at the same time there doesn't seem to be room for consensus in Latin American politics. I mean at this point Venezuela is the shambling corpse of a once-prosperous state ruled by the shambling corpse of the espoused ideals of the government in power. It's kept moving because there are truly no limits to the level of despair and indignity a government can inflict on its people so long as they have a monopoly on force. And apparently the only moral thing to do is support them while hemming and hawwing about the potential right-wing death squads while studiously ignoring the armed gangs the current government uses to put down dissent. There is apparently no scheme in which we can agree that while a socialist government with legitimacy would be better than a right-wing government with legitimacy, a 'socialist' government with no legitimacy is functionally equivalent to a right-wing government with no legitimacy. Feinne fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Aug 16, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 16:46
|
|
|
Communisn is allowed to run rampant, to the point where your only way to move up in a communist world is to be a friend to someone higher up or be the son of a higher up. Look at russia now. The mafia state of the world. Venezuela is at the point whereits really a crony capitalist system of empowering non state actors with a free hand to do as they will. When general joe hires his sons maintenance outfit to fix things they just steal poo poo like rampant.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 17:32
|
|
|
Truga posted:Chavez had some ideas, about communism and obviously someone who has some ideas about communism can't be bad right??? Fixed
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 17:34
|
|
|
Mr. Sunshine posted:The only thing Maduro's government says about socialism is that as long as you call yourself socialist and rail against the US, the self-proclaimed "anti-imperialist" chucklefucks of the world will defend anything you do. It would be one thing if it was the ignorant chucklefucks who came to this thread to espouse "well heh, whoever succeeds Maduro will literally be Satan so better buckle up and get ready for more Maduro  "but it's another thing when you have politically-relevant chucklefucks like Jeremy Corbyn who spent ages talking about how great Chavez is and how great Chavismo is and how everyone should turn to Chavismo and the world would be so great. gently caress Jeremy Corbyn and all those similar jackasses like Oliver Stone who praised Venezuela for years and have gone complete *crickets* or just outright denied it since. I guess they're still a half-step better than the people who come to this thread to defend Maduro (although that's increasingly rare) or say "heh yeah but whoever replaces Maduro will literally be a right wing Pol Pot who will execute 99% of Venezuelans."
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 17:53
|
|
|
Feinne posted:Oh yeah the right in the US loving loves to trot out Venezuela when making GBS threads on their opponents. It's vexing. I’m so, so deeply sorry the humanitarian crisis that’s causing untold suffering to our people is affecting you so personally
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 19:20
|
|
|
Venezuela is getting close to somalia levels of not being a country except on a map ,yet people are here saying that hey, things would be much worse if maduro went away. Because it can get worse than millions going away from their country, starvation, diseases due to lack of drugs and vaccines, non functioning hospitals, most of the time having no water or power and hey, now there are pirates using Venezuela as its base as the venezuelan coast guard is basically starving. BUT HEY IT COULD BE WORSE, HOW? WHO KNOWS
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 19:24
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Communisn is allowed to run rampant, to the point where your only way to move up in a communist world is to be a friend to someone higher up or be the son of a higher up. Look at russia now. The mafia state of the world. Venezuela is at the point whereits really a crony capitalist system of empowering non state actors with a free hand to do as they will. When general joe hires his sons maintenance outfit to fix things they just steal poo poo like rampant. The gently caress are you smoking?
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 20:21
|
|
|
gently caress, let's define some terms here. Communism: A classless, stateless society, where people directly control their workplaces and the products of their labour. Common resources are distributed fairly to every member of society. There is no oppression or exploitation. This society has never been achieved anywhere in world history. Communist parties aim to achieve this society. Socialism: An intermediary step on the road to communism. A society where the capitalist class has been eradicated, and the peasant and working classes rule through the dictatorship of the proletariat - in theory a highly democratic system where all power rests with the two aforementioned classes. All important economic enterprises are owned and controlled by the state, and the state distributes resources as it sees fit. This is the society that the Soviet Union and the various People's Republics claimed to have achieved, and the word they used to describe themselves and their ideology. Not socialism: High taxes, welfare programs, universal healthcare, labour protections, income equality, anti-discrimination laws, anti-poverty measures etc. So, is the PSUV socialist, and is Venezuela under the PSUV a socialist nation? I'd say no, not in any useful sense. Feel free to contradict me.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 21:38
|
|
|
Celexi posted:
I can't imagine anything good. The Truth and Reconciliation hearings will be strong stuff, sobering.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 21:44
|
|
|
Celexi posted:Venezuela is getting close to somalia levels of not being a country except on a map ,yet people are here saying that hey, things would be much worse if maduro went away. Amazing, is not it? Maduro performed the right wing CIA backed junta routine on his country all by himself, no helpful guide. I guess he wanted to save USA some money so they could go hire more prostitute in Colombia.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 21:54
|
|
|
Mr. Sunshine posted:So, is the PSUV socialist, and is Venezuela under the PSUV a socialist nation? I'd say no, not in any useful sense. Feel free to contradict me. Venezuela, either under Chavez or Maduro, probably fails being called a socialist state in a useful sense (or at least the predominant marxist definition, remember socialism was a much more vague and diverse term before the Russian Revolution kind of pushed marxism, as interpreted by Lenin, to the forefront). Then again alot of people operate, on both the left and right (and I think particularly in America), seem to be operating with a much less strict definition of what can be called a socialist country, I've often heard American (and also British) leftists will call Norway or other Scandinavian countries "socialist" (which I disagree with based on very similar criteria to those you have put forward). Then again I will say that perception and self-identification matters, Chavez and his followers always seem to have considered themselves socialists, or at least "revolutionary" and for a long time many of those in the West with an interest in Latin America were inclined to accept this and offer them their enthusiastic moral support, identifying them as at least some kind of radical leftists, maybe even revolutionary. I don't doubt that Maduro and many at the top still manage to convince themselves they are acting in support of the people and revolution. The key ingredience is probably arrogance, people have repeatedly managed to justify corruption that goes against the tenets of their ideology or the duties of their position, often on the basis that they are so important to the movement or whatever that it is necessary, even good, that they reward themselves at others' expense. I think people who manage to reach the top levels of leadership, particularly in the more vicious political settings, such as in Chavez's quasi-revolutionary Venezuela, likely have a tremendous sense of self-importance.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 22:05
|
|
|
Furia posted:I’m so, so deeply sorry the humanitarian crisis that’s causing untold suffering to our people is affecting you so personally I apologize if the tone of my post was a bit callous.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 22:24
|
|
|
Mr. Sunshine posted:Real socialism has never been tried. Going with that old chestnut, huh? One big problem with this argument is that so-called 21st Century Socialism was the darling of self-described socialists across the western world for over a decade. If they had been saying that it wasn't true socialism from early on then this assertion would have more credibility, but the deafening silence from the far left about the contemporary state of Venezuela shows a lot of them are too intellectually cowardly to face up to what they said in the past. The assumption that there is a platonic ideal of Socialism that actually works in practice is a faith position, and a dodgy one given the persistent failures of socialist projects. The assumption that socialism is an intermediary step on the road to communism is just a Marxist dogma that cannot be proven through scientific means. You may as well try to persuade me that abortion is wrong because of the Bible, I'm not a true believer so I won't take your faith position for granted.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 22:32
|
|
|
That is not what I said, and you know that. Socialism has very much been tried - in the USSR, in the DDR, in Poland, in Jugoslavia etc etc. I never claimed that there was "a platonic ideal of Socialism that actually works in practice", and you know that. I defined what the term socialism meant for nations who used it to describe themselves. Communism has never been tried in practice. No nation on earth has ever claimed to have achieved communism.
|
|
#
?
Aug 16, 2018 23:38
|
|
|
There are protests happening near the Miraflores Palace this evening. The protests appear to have been sparked by a blackout that has been affecting the area, with some sectors going without power for the last 36 hours. Here's a couple of videos of the protests. They seem to have started at around 7:30 PM Caracas time, and they were still happening at 9:30 PM: https://twitter.com/ReporteYa/status/1030270018418827265 https://twitter.com/Juliococo/status/1030265342508105733 https://twitter.com/ElyangelicaNews/status/1030253969883447296 A protest also broke out in Los Teques, which is a city just south of Caracas. Here's some images/videos from there: https://twitter.com/ReporteYa/status/1030270406094151680 https://twitter.com/soldadoDfranela/status/1030272914556428288 Because the Miraflores Palace is the seat of power in Venezuela, protests in the area are rare. Whenever one does flare up, the whole country tenses up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 03:04
|
|
|
If any of you Venegoons or your families are in the vicinity of these protests, stay safe. The PSUV has proven they are entirely willing to use lethal force against protestors.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 04:59
|
|
|
Mr. Sunshine posted:gently caress, let's define some terms here. What class fills in the capital class being drained in a socialist/communist society The mafia class. Dont you realize that? Communism created a society where having money was bad. So you have to run a favor based bartering system for state resources. In Venezuelas case the slant of deficit inflation went way faster than other examples. Maduros running the country on a deficit to keep power. Him and his cronies give factions of the country beneficias. But the lasting impact of this is a crippled country. Same happened to the ussr, eventually the buddy buddy circle of running the Bloc came to a head and now russia is a paper tiger with no real threat to the rest of the world. WAR CRIME GIGOLO fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Aug 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 05:44
|
|
|
The citizenry are merely utilizing what resources the glorious socialist revolutionary government has made available. They are responding in a constructive way against the blackout caused by capitalist economic warfare, by lighting up the night, and then having a light jog to celebrate and ensure they are in peak physical fitness to defend the revolution in the future. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 06:23
|
|
|
re: venesocialism chat given the pivotal role of the Caracazo in legitimising 21st Century Socialism to begin with, I am curious if events since have suggested any politically tenable alternatives at the time to the thorny problem of petrol subsidies. Not high-concept Bolivarian remaking of society but the sundry question of the price of petrol at the pump; this is such a massive proportion of the Venezuelan budget that any corruption would be a rounding error it has taken "only" three decades but Maduro explicitly raised the prospect of Venezuelans paying international prices for petrol recently, as I understand
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 06:52
|
|
|
ronya posted:re: venesocialism chat Subsidized petrol is a large money sink, that's true. But that doesn't make the corruption a rounding error. Chavez's daughter ending up with $600 million in leaked bank accounts is a shitload of money lost for Venezuela, and probably only a fraction of what she has squirreled away. Now imagine how many other relatives, friends, etc. of Chavez did similar plundering. Some less, some more. Now consider all those who ended up in positions of power and control have their own acquaintances. That's just the tip of the iceberg, too, because those friends and family also have friends and family who will all have a shot to take smaller pieces of the pie.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 12:28
|
|
|
ronya posted:re: venesocialism chat Also, it wasn't just petroleum subsidies but price controls across multiple sectors that were draining Venezuela revenue and forcing the government to subsidize imports.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 12:35
|
|
|
Maduro did announce last week that gas prices are going to go up. He also said that he's going to offset the increase with a subsidy to drivers. The catch is that only drivers who have the carnet de la patria [Fatherland I.D.] will get the subsidy. The carnet is a PSUV identification card that, for obvious reasons, lots of people don't want to get. When the carnet was launched in early 2017, regime critics pointed out that it was going to be used as a tool to extort people into signing up for this card in exchange for access to basic goods and services that used to be universal, like housing and food. This is indeed how the carnet has played out, and this gas subsidy is the latest example of that. The regime hasn't announced what the gas increase will look like, but El Nacional (the leading newspaper in the country) cited an inside source yesterday as saying that the hike would be 1,499,000%. The current price of for a litre of gas is less than a penny, and the new price is allegedly going to be Bs. 90,000 per litre.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 13:10
|
|
|
Yeah, thats about 60-70 US cents a liter, very high for Venezuelans but still under international prices.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 13:20
|
|
|
ronya posted:re: venesocialism chat Corruption does not bring down an economy only in the money stolen. In fact, that's probably a small minority of the money that is lost by corruption. Corruption also reduces investor confidence, both for large businesses and small. If you have to pay protection rackets etc then you are less likely to run a business, and certainly less likely to run a business that is profitable enough for you to expand. It's possible for there to be corruption that does not bring down businesses (e.g. I am sure there is no shortage of corruption in Switzerland, but investor confidence is also like 100% so it's not a #1 concern) but Venezuela never had "benign" corruption. Kind of like how there's a difference in Yakuza violence that stays within the Yazkua and — this is my understanding and it may be wrong — people who willingly start working with the Yakuza for loans etc, versus Italian mafia type violence which spills over and affects everyone in the region. The specific dollar values stolen by Chavez's family and friends is hard to quantify, it's almost certainly a poo poo ton of money, but like you I bet it is the minority of the damage caused by corruption.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 13:51
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Yeah, thats about 60-70 US cents a liter, very high for Venezuelans but still under international prices. Considering 80% of the population makes way less than a dollar a day, that effectively means that you're not going to see anyone but the super rich or friends of the party using cars. Seeing how most public transport is falling to pieces due to a lack of spare parts and materials, this will pretty much just freeze the economy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 13:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 00:05 |
|
|
Chuck Boone posted:The regime hasn't announced what the gas increase will look like, but El Nacional (the leading newspaper in the country) cited an inside source yesterday as saying that the hike would be 1,499,000%. The current price of for a litre of gas is less than a penny, and the new price is allegedly going to be Bs. 90,000 per litre. Ardennes posted:Yeah, thats about 60-70 US cents a liter, very high for Venezuelans but still under international prices. No idea where you're doing your math, but 90,000 BsF is not even two pennies per liter, and 90k "New New" Bolivars would make it $1600 US per liter, which doesn't sound right, although I guess with inflation that means 90'000 sovereign bolivars will be back to a few pennies by the end of the year. (Edit: I'm guessing you're doing the math by reading the article but mixing up sovereign bolivars for USD? It will be about 0.60 sovereign bolivars per liter) 2 cents per liter sounds about right; even that would be a major expense for the majority of Venezuelans, given that the average monthly income for a state employee is -- not exaggerating at all -- like $5/month? Saladman fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Aug 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Aug 17, 2018 14:03
|
|