TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

I never would have expected that Something Awful Forums would be undone by a bland heartbreaker of WHRP 1e.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 05:18

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# ? May 24, 2024 02:46

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Nuns with Guns posted:

I never would have expected that Something Awful Forums would be undone by a bland heartbreaker of WHRP 1e.

Let's be real, this isn't even the top 100 dumb things which have been the end of Something Awful dot com.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 05:22

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Kai Tave posted:

If I were a cynical man I might suggest that Zweihander was the tipping point specifically because it's not a d20 product of some sort.

Maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but if this is all about some vote-fixing scheme, I would imagine Zweihander would be the tipping point just because, if the guy's shilling is any indication, he'd be really blatant about it in some way they couldn't ignore.

I like that they apparently give little enough of a poo poo about their comments section that Zak immediately plunged it into his grudge-filled shitter and it's just been that way ever since the article went up. A+ job from an outfit whose business is internet content and community building.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 05:25

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

I really like Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved and I really like Ptolus. I can't stand Numenara or The Strange and I have mixed feelings on Iron Heroes and his take on World of Darkness, but like or hate the content; the production quality is always fantastic.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 05:38

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

That Old Tree posted:

Maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but if this is all about some vote-fixing scheme, I would imagine Zweihander would be the tipping point just because, if the guy's shilling is any indication, he'd be really blatant about it in some way they couldn't ignore.

I like that they apparently give little enough of a poo poo about their comments section that Zak immediately plunged it into his grudge-filled shitter and it's just been that way ever since the article went up. A+ job from an outfit whose business is internet content and community building.

The real question is if the ENnies have evidence of vote tampering going on with the awards will they rescind anybody's? Otherwise it's just saying that the problem isn't that someone cheated so much as that they got caught.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 06:06

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

I really like Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved and I really like Ptolus. I can't stand Numenara or The Strange and I have mixed feelings on Iron Heroes and his take on World of Darkness, but like or hate the content; the production quality is always fantastic.

Iron Heroes was a Mearls gig, so you're safe.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 06:30

neongrey: Feb 28, 2007; Plaguing your posts with incidental music.

"""""""Safe"""""""

# ? Aug 20, 2018 06:45

Saguaro PI: Mar 11, 2013; Totally legit tree

Mearls being the Iron Heroes guy makes his pandering to grogs re: warlords shouting hands back on even more incredible.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 08:30

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Saguaro PI posted:

Mearls being the Iron Heroes guy makes his pandering to grogs re: warlords shouting hands back on even more incredible.

Mearls was also a big booster of 4E when the line was active and he was a part of it. I think the takeaway is basically that Mike Mearls will just say whatever he thinks will make people like him the most at any given moment. Also while Iron Heroes has some laudable concepts, the actual mechanical execution thereof isn't anything to write home about, and it certainly didn't have anything as conceptually interesting as the Warlord.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 08:41

Ettin: Oct 2, 2010

Nuns with Guns posted:

Going back to that blog post on changes to the Ennies: why didn't anyone tell me we were rigging the votes? Because I have a word or six for the kingmaker behind the win of every d20 product for the past 20 years, Blood in the Chocolate, and Zweihander.

So just to be clear, what happened was that for the last couple years LotFP creators campaigned for a particular judge specifically so they would pack the nominations with LotFP games. This is partly why the ENnies have been talking about change recently.

I haven't heard anything about Zweihander being involved besides speculation based on his self-promoting a lot though.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 09:56

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Ettin posted:

So just to be clear, what happened was that for the last couple years LotFP creators campaigned for a particular judge specifically so they would pack the nominations with LotFP games. This is partly why the ENnies have been talking about change recently.

lol so this has obviously been going on for years and the response is "only just now will we put up a blog post saying that we'll look into doing something maybe."

# ? Aug 20, 2018 09:59

Ettin: Oct 2, 2010

They also changed the rules for 2019 judge voting so creators who push for specific judges can't be nominated that year, so they're definitely taking action. I imagine if someone wants to fix the nominations again they'll look for other ways, but at least you can't just say "it would really help my career if you vote for this guy" out loud now. It's a good start!

# ? Aug 20, 2018 10:20

Flavivirus: Dec 14, 2011; The next stage of evolution.

Ettin posted:

They also changed the rules for 2019 judge voting so creators who push for specific judges can't be nominated that year, so they're definitely taking action. I imagine if someone wants to fix the nominations again they'll look for other ways, but at least you can't just say "it would really help my career if you vote for this guy" out loud now. It's a good start!

It's a start... but this year I saw a few indies responding to the all-male judge slate with recommendations of 'I know this guy at least has his head on straight re: social justice'. I guess what I'm saying is it's one element of a fix, but stopping games creators from promoting particular judges only creates an unbiased slate when the judge pool was unbiased to begin with.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 10:32

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Ettin posted:

So just to be clear, what happened was that for the last couple years LotFP creators campaigned for a particular judge specifically so they would pack the nominations with LotFP games. This is partly why the ENnies have been talking about change recently.

I haven't heard anything about Zweihander being involved besides speculation based on his self-promoting a lot though.

I kind of figured that was one of the real major causes. I posted it here before, too:

Nuns with Guns posted:

In addition to this, last year there was a dedicated OSR judge on panel that helped lobby for OSR stuff, which was a big factor in how Blood in the Chocolate became an Ennie-winner. They probably still do. It's a system that has a pretty easy exploit that nobody really cared about before because the Ennies were just "best d20 thing" for most of their lifetime.

e- Yeah, the same judge is on the 2018 list. Here's Raggi bragging about him last year:

# ? Aug 20, 2018 12:39

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Kai Tave posted:

Mearls was also a big booster of 4E when the line was active and he was a part of it. I think the takeaway is basically that Mike Mearls will just say whatever he thinks will make people like him the most at any given moment. Also while Iron Heroes has some laudable concepts, the actual mechanical execution thereof isn't anything to write home about, and it certainly didn't have anything as conceptually interesting as the Warlord.

I think Mearls is perfectly capable of understanding that non-wizards can be powerful... so long as Wizards are more powerful or don't exist in the world at all.

My favorite Mearls-ism in recent memory was when he put out a sub-class for 5e Wizards that got access to Cleric domains, and got the capstone domain features earlier than Clerics did ~~because of the level differences between when wizards and clerics gain access to their sub-class features~~. And when confronted on this point he said something to the effect of how the Wizards "Purely intellectual approach to worship gains them more power quicker than blind faith." Which is the most Dawkins & Dragons thing I've heard in a while.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 14:43

RocknRollaAyatollah: Nov 26, 2008; Lipstick Apathy

Zweihander winning is questionable, which I've voiced my opinion that they did some amount of vote rigging, but it's at least in the top 25 still on Drivethru. LotFP is pretty far towards the bottom now, I don't think it was ever too far up other than some of the more acceptable books that weren't just tits and people being dismembered. LotFP stuff was honestly much more questionable because they're usually poorly made books that have a gross aesthetic.

Has the bottom fallen out on OSR stuff? It just seems done as a trend or fad after none of the OSR people could release anything new or exciting. It's also an incredibly toxic community.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 14:49

Dawgstar: Jul 15, 2017

Kurieg posted:

My favorite Mearls-ism in recent memory was when he put out a sub-class for 5e Wizards that got access to Cleric domains, and got the capstone domain features earlier than Clerics did ~~because of the level differences between when wizards and clerics gain access to their sub-class features~~. And when confronted on this point he said something to the effect of how the Wizards "Purely intellectual approach to worship gains them more power quicker than blind faith." Which is the most Dawkins & Dragons thing I've heard in a while.

Yeah. Clerics never think about the god they've devoted their lives to. Good lord, Mearls.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 15:52

LaSquida: Nov 1, 2012; Just keep on walkin'.

Kurieg posted:

I think Mearls is perfectly capable of understanding that non-wizards can be powerful... so long as Wizards are more powerful or don't exist in the world at all.

My favorite Mearls-ism in recent memory was when he put out a sub-class for 5e Wizards that got access to Cleric domains, and got the capstone domain features earlier than Clerics did ~~because of the level differences between when wizards and clerics gain access to their sub-class features~~. And when confronted on this point he said something to the effect of how the Wizards "Purely intellectual approach to worship gains them more power quicker than blind faith." Which is the most Dawkins & Dragons thing I've heard in a while.

What subclass is this?

# ? Aug 20, 2018 16:07

Worldshatter: May 7, 2015; PEPSI for TV-GAME

LeSquide posted:

What subclass is this?

Unearthed arcana divine tradition iirc, unless I'm mistaken I don't think it's officially published

# ? Aug 20, 2018 16:09

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

I feel like the nature of faith would be fundamentally different in a setting where witnessing your god's divine will channeled through your pastor is commonplace.

There's nothing blind about the faith involved. Your god isn't an intangible allegory, it runs your healthcare provider.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 16:18

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Worldshatter posted:

Unearthed arcana divine tradition iirc, unless I'm mistaken I don't think it's officially published

Yeah, it was one of the web supplement classes and it never got officially published.
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/MJ320UAWizardVF2017.pdf

quote:

Arcane High Priest
At 14th level, you gain your chosen domain�s 17th-level benefits.
Your academic nature and understanding of magic and doctrine allow you to master this ability sooner than a cleric of your domain.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 16:25

Worldshatter: May 7, 2015; PEPSI for TV-GAME

moths posted:

I feel like the nature of faith would be fundamentally different in a setting where witnessing your god's divine will channeled through your pastor is commonplace.

There's nothing blind about the faith involved. Your god isn't an intangible allegory, it runs your healthcare provider.

At that point it's less faith and more just fact, if anything appealing to an entity you know exists and can ponder the nature of is a hell of a lot more "intellectual" than "I make the fancy hand signs and sparks come out"

# ? Aug 20, 2018 16:36

Worldshatter: May 7, 2015; PEPSI for TV-GAME

Clerics are cool dudes is what I'm saying

# ? Aug 20, 2018 16:38

TheDiceMustRoll: Jul 23, 2018

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

I really like Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved and I really like Ptolus. I can't stand Numenara or The Strange and I have mixed feelings on Iron Heroes and his take on World of Darkness, but like or hate the content; the production quality is always fantastic.

Monte Cook: More Shiny Than Good!

RocknRollaAyatollah posted:

Zweihander winning is questionable, which I've voiced my opinion that they did some amount of vote rigging, but it's at least in the top 25 still on Drivethru. LotFP is pretty far towards the bottom now, I don't think it was ever too far up other than some of the more acceptable books that weren't just tits and people being dismembered. LotFP stuff was honestly much more questionable because they're usually poorly made books that have a gross aesthetic.

Has the bottom fallen out on OSR stuff? It just seems done as a trend or fad after none of the OSR people could release anything new or exciting. It's also an incredibly toxic community.

What
Veins of the Earth came out last year and it's a fantastic product. Maze of the Blue Medusa got a reprint and has already sold 600+ copies(according to Ken Bauman) Hubris is great, DCC is posting strong numbers in general(Goodman Games announced the Corebook sold 500k copies, which is...pretty god drat good for an RPG that isn't Pathfinder or DnD) and there are lineups to play in DCC games at every tradgame con. I will grant you that MCC came out last year and wasn't...very good.

What exactly gives you the idea that the "bottom has fallen out" of the OSR niche?

# ? Aug 20, 2018 16:49

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

I've heard a lot of accusations levied at lotfp products but "poorly made" isn't one of them.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Aug 20, 2018

# ? Aug 20, 2018 16:51

Elephant Parade: Jan 20, 2018

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

I've heard a lot of accusations levied at lotfp products but "poorly made" isn't one of them.

I've made a lot of complaints about LotFP products, but "poorly-made" isn't one of them.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 17:02

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

how is being inundated with cheap gore porn and shock jock inanity not a reflection on its quality? LOTFP isn't even playable a lot of the time

# ? Aug 20, 2018 17:21

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

Yeah, the content of LOTFP is often a hot mess even when it isn't being offensive; I'd be shocked if an editor even waved at it from across the room in some cases. The production values are on the higher side (in terms of RPG products) but that's not the only measure of quality.

EDIT: I think there's also a distinction to be made between nostalgic/retro/reboot products, and OSR as the weird identity its become. The former seem to be doing reasonably well, the latter seem to be boiling down to an increasingly insular swamp.

Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Aug 20, 2018

# ? Aug 20, 2018 17:25

moths: Aug 25, 2004; I would also still appreciate some danger.

Their free RPG day adventure a few years back featured an illustration of (among other things) kids sucking poo poo out of a corpse's intestine.

I mean, ok if that's your thing whatever. But this was laid out on the table with all the other promotionals because the store manager was unfamiliar with the line.

It might be the greatest RPG system in the world, but eh.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 17:39

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

Comrade Gorbash posted:

EDIT: I think there's also a distinction to be made between nostalgic/retro/reboot products, and OSR as the weird identity its become. The former seem to be doing reasonably well, the latter seem to be boiling down to an increasingly insular swamp.

This sounds like you're proposing an infinitely moving goalpost, such that you can speak in generalities and walk them back when presented with counterexamples. I don't think anyone here will disagree that it's ridiculous to make what RPG you play part of your identity - maybe stick to complaints about specific products or lines? Like, if you want to delineate what you mean, go ahead, but are talking about more than lotfp here anyway?

I think there have been some really interesting basic DND modules published as of late and there are enough BX-based systems that you don't have to use the one with the titties if you don't want to, independent of who published the module. Veins if the Earth and Hot Springs Island are particularly great. I'm enjoying my read-through of Operation Unfathomable as well if you want to see something more readily gameable.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 17:52

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

This sounds like you're proposing an infinitely moving goalpost, such that you can speak in generalities and walk them back when presented with counterexamples. I don't think anyone here will disagree that it's ridiculous to make what RPG you play part of your identity - maybe stick to complaints about specific products or lines? Like, if you want to delineate what you mean, go ahead, but are talking about more than lotfp here anyway?

I think there have been some really interesting basic DND modules published as of late and there are enough BX-based systems that you don't have to use the one with the titties if you don't want to, independent of who published the module. Veins if the Earth and Hot Springs Island are particularly great. I'm enjoying my read-through of Operation Unfathomable as well if you want to see something more readily gameable.

I think the distinction here is between, like, Savage Rifts and 7th Sea 2e (which could fairly be called nostalgia projects or reboots) and the OSR (which can fairly be said to not contain either of the aforementioned products).

# ? Aug 20, 2018 17:59

TheDiceMustRoll: Jul 23, 2018

Mors Rattus posted:

I think the distinction here is between, like, Savage Rifts and 7th Sea 2e (which could fairly be called nostalgia projects or reboots) and the OSR (which can fairly be said to not contain either of the aforementioned products).

Pure nostalgia products like that B2 reprint GG did are doing well, yes.

Veins is doing well, Hot Springs Island is doing well, DCC is doing well, etc.

Who is flopping, becoming insular, etc? Raggi was handing out stacks of cash as royalties to creators.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 18:12

Mr. Maltose: Feb 16, 2011; The Guffless Girlverine

Thank god the OSR Defender Has Logged On.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 18:17

DalaranJ: Apr 15, 2008; Yosuke will now die for you.

Ettin posted:

So just to be clear, what happened was that for the last couple years LotFP creators campaigned for a particular judge specifically so they would pack the nominations with LotFP games. This is partly why the ENnies have been talking about change recently.

I was wondering what prompted Zak to immediately jump in, but this explains it. He was deflecting blame.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 18:20

Comrade Gorbash: Jul 12, 2011; My paper soldiers form a wall, five paces thick and twice as tall.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:

This sounds like you're proposing an infinitely moving goalpost, such that you can speak in generalities and walk them back when presented with counterexamples. I don't think anyone here will disagree that it's ridiculous to make what RPG you play part of your identity - maybe stick to complaints about specific products or lines? Like, if you want to delineate what you mean, go ahead, but are talking about more than lotfp here anyway?

This sounds like you're proposing a bad faith argument because you're a disingenuous rear end in a top hat who doesn't like it when people say maybe the things they like aren't perfect.

Oh wait, that's not a proposal, that's a fact.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 18:27

Elephant Parade: Jan 20, 2018

by "poorly-made" I assumed they were referring to the layout, visual design, and so on. Most of the modules suck for one reason or another, I agree

# ? Aug 20, 2018 18:40

Jeffrey of YOSPOS: Dec 22, 2005; GET LOSE, YOU CAN'T COMPARE WITH MY POWERS

Elephant Parade posted:

by "poorly-made" I assumed they were referring to the layout, visual design, and so on. Most of the modules suck for one reason or another, I agree

Yeah and the post specifically delineated the "poorly-made" criticism from the "gross aesthetic" one, leading me to conclude this as well. They do indeed have a gross aesthetic, not much to discuss there. :shrug:

lol if you think I'm defensively loyal to any specific rpg publishing house...I promise I don't give a poo poo. Not sure what more to say there? I'd rather you type words that mean concrete things that can be discussed by people reading your posts, instead of alluding to a vaguely-defined outgroup that we're supposed to already know about and thus can applaud when you criticize them.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Aug 20, 2018

# ? Aug 20, 2018 19:08

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da8kUBlT_FA

# ? Aug 20, 2018 19:10

Nuns with Guns: Jul 23, 2010; It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

I haven't seen any sign that LotFP or other OSR products are dying out. The fans are still there and the products are chugging along.

The books are full of over the top graphic shock images that do cross over into creepy porn territory on the regular, and tend to lean on unpredictable save-or-die rules like a badly-designed CoC adventure but those are separate complaints.

The community doesn't seem toxic, either, but yes many prominent members do endorse and support awful people and should be held accountable for that.

# ? Aug 20, 2018 19:27

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# ? May 24, 2024 02:46

RocknRollaAyatollah: Nov 26, 2008; Lipstick Apathy

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

What
Veins of the Earth came out last year and it's a fantastic product. Maze of the Blue Medusa got a reprint and has already sold 600+ copies(according to Ken Bauman) Hubris is great, DCC is posting strong numbers in general(Goodman Games announced the Corebook sold 500k copies, which is...pretty god drat good for an RPG that isn't Pathfinder or DnD) and there are lineups to play in DCC games at every tradgame con. I will grant you that MCC came out last year and wasn't...very good.

What exactly gives you the idea that the "bottom has fallen out" of the OSR niche?

DCC isn't an OSR product, it's based on 3rd edition D&D. It apes the style but it's very much a modern game. They don't even put the logo on their products and are up front that it's based on 3rd edition. If 3rd edition is OSR, then I guess Pathfinder is the most successful OSR product in existence.

Most OSR labeled products are unplayable and poorly made with the caveat of that's how a real RPG is supposed to be. :smug:

There's usually some great concepts there but it all just breaks down or runs poorly. I started out in AD&D and the OSR movement just embraces the worst design elements of the era and generally talks down any criticism about it.

RocknRollaAyatollah fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Aug 20, 2018

# ? Aug 20, 2018 19:30

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG as an Industry: A pendulum swing against the excesses of Rule 0 culture

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