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From what I gathered on Twitter the lady is part of several far right groups so definitely a PR stunt. The OPC used it to say Trudeau was being fear mongering and calling everyone racist. I am sure a lot of people will see it that way without the further context of her affiliations. https://twitter.com/letroupeauqc/status/1031377717349031936?s=21
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Aug 21, 2018 02:59
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FowlTheOwl posted:From what I gathered on Twitter the lady is part of several far right groups so definitely a PR stunt. The OPC used it to say Trudeau was being fear mongering and calling everyone racist. I am sure a lot of people will see it that way without the further context of her affiliations. She was hollering anti-immigrant bullshit from everything I've heard, I don't think I need to know about her affiliations to call her a racist.
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Aug 21, 2018 03:01
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PT6A posted:She was hollering anti-immigrant bullshit from everything I've heard, I don't think I need to know about her affiliations to call her a racist. If it's a stunt what's even the point? Anyone who thinks Trudeau is a giant secret ISIS muslim cuck or whatever already thinks that and there's not a drat thing in the world that will change their minds. Anyone who thinks he is a very handsome and nice caring boy is stuck the same way. Like gently caress it took 10 years or so of many people constantly dunking on your terrible opinions to slowly shift you from ideologue Con to milquetoast Lib. We can't really expand that thing to the populace at large. Everyone is just getting more and more entrenched in their personal brand of curated news and politics. gently caress. I know I'm probably getting a bit worked up (and I'm sorry for subjecting you folks to it), and normally I'd go for a bike ride or run to get over it, but current vis is about 300m and it literally hurts to breathe with my fuckin dumb lung issues.
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Aug 21, 2018 03:13
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A Typical Goon posted:I think perception of the leader/party is different, even if I agree personally that it’s the same poo poo, different smile They seem to think he's a pretty popular hairdo too 
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Aug 21, 2018 03:24
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The Butcher posted:If it's a stunt what's even the point? Well, yeah. I don't see what Andrew Scheer gets out of trying to criticize Trudeau's completely reasonable response to an angry loon, other than to look like even more of a dunce than usual.
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Aug 21, 2018 03:43
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Postess with the Mostest posted:They seem to think he's a pretty popular hairdo too  Sun Media hire me plz
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Aug 21, 2018 03:52
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It isn't even a good hair cut.
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Aug 21, 2018 05:28
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The Butcher posted:
lmao
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Aug 21, 2018 05:35
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The Butcher posted:If it's a stunt what's even the point? Hmmmm, yes the two genders
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Aug 21, 2018 05:57
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I am at a loss for what the conservative platform is going to be this election. Their last campaign was so badly misguided with its embarassing attack ads that I can't imagine what their tortured logic is going to come up with this time. They're probably going to run on a sincere platform of xenophobia and fearmongering, aren't they? The only Avenue I see available to them is to double down on racism to get their core voter block while focusing on throwing disincentives at liberal and NDP voters to try and get them to stay home.
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Aug 21, 2018 06:33
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PT6A posted:It's like he's trying to out-stupid Maxime Bernier or something. What's the game here? No, you got it. Arcsquad12 posted:They're probably going to run on a sincere platform of xenophobia and fearmongering, aren't they? The only Avenue I see available to them is to double down on racism to get their core voter block while focusing on throwing disincentives at liberal and NDP voters to try and get them to stay home. Yes, because it's the only place they can meaningfully differentiate themselves from the Liberals. They may be lockstep on economic policy but hooo boy can they ever double down on bigotry. Presumably this is great policy because there are no Red Tories that will change teams just because they've decided to take a poo poo on social issues.
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Aug 21, 2018 06:37
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FYI politicians calling people racists in general doesn't solve the problem of people being, becoming, and voting racist.
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Aug 21, 2018 07:18
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PT6A posted:Well, yeah. I don't see what Andrew Scheer gets out of trying to criticize Trudeau's completely reasonable response to an angry loon, other than to look like even more of a dunce than usual. Maybe he's trying to bait him in to apologizing and then he can run attack ads about how Trudeau apologized to a racist? I don't know, I don't think there's a strategy at work here. It's just "I am required to oppose literally everything the Liberals do regardless of context"
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Aug 21, 2018 07:57
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Arcsquad12 posted:I am at a loss for what the conservative platform is going to be this election. Their last campaign was so badly misguided with its embarassing attack ads that I can't imagine what their tortured logic is going to come up with this time. They're probably going to run on a sincere platform of xenophobia and fearmongering, aren't they? The only Avenue I see available to them is to double down on racism to get their core voter block while focusing on throwing disincentives at liberal and NDP voters to try and get them to stay home. There wasn't quite the same atmosphere of "immigrant crisis" in 2015 as is there is today. Put forward the idea that not only are there too many immigrants in Canada but it's also changing the character of Canada and you have a potentially winning election strategy.
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Aug 21, 2018 12:25
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The day the cons do something about climate change is the day they begin executing nonwhites because there are too many mouths to feed.
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Aug 21, 2018 12:39
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Remember that lovely poll that said two thirds of Canadians were deeply concerned about illegal border crossings and felt that Canada was full and couldn't afford any more people coming in? The Cons sure do.
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Aug 21, 2018 12:48
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infernal machines posted:They may be lockstep on economic policy but hooo boy can they ever double down on bigotry. It is only the case that they are lockstep on economic policy if you look at both parties' economic policy and reduce it to "it too right-wing for me, therefore both are bad and the same." vyelkin posted:Remember that lovely poll that said two thirds of Canadians were deeply concerned about illegal border crossings and felt that Canada was full and couldn't afford any more people coming in? Where the gently caress do these people live that Canada appears even remotely full to them? I mean, I know it's just racist anxiety at work when you get right down to it, I'm just curious if they even attempt to justify to themselves the idea that one of the least densely populated and richest nations on earth is remotely "full."
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Aug 21, 2018 13:09
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Canada might have a lot of space but it's easy to convince people that more immigration, especially from areas where the populace in general is used to a lower quality of life, will result in more competition for an ever shrinking pool of decent jobs and a further stagnation or depression of working wages. The reality may be the opposite; immigration on it's own IIRC correlates to more job opportunities overall, but it's quite easy to convince people of the latter when there really has been a steady decline of employment opportunities, job security, and salary due to things like automation, corporate consolidation, etc. These are some of the conditions that can make one susceptible to being duped into embracing xenophobia but gently caress addressing stuff like that to stave it off in the first place when we can just scream at them for being bigots when it happens.
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Aug 21, 2018 13:31
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EvilJoven posted:These are some of the conditions that can make one susceptible to being duped into embracing xenophobia but gently caress addressing stuff like that to stave it off in the first place when we can just scream at them for being bigots when it happens. ¿Por que no los dos?
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Aug 21, 2018 13:33
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https://twitter.com/natnewswatch/status/1031867106860646405 Scheer is such a fuckin nerd
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Aug 21, 2018 13:34
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PT6A posted:¿Por que no los dos? Because being a complete poo poo to someone and putting them on the defensive is a good way to get them to retreat to their echo chambers only to come out with even shittier opinions. That's why, you colossally selfish moron. Kick any old ladies out of the way yet today because they got between you and your imported cigars and cheese? Drown anyone in bitumen because it'd earn you a buck yet?
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Aug 21, 2018 13:37
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EvilJoven posted:Because being a complete poo poo to someone and putting them on the defensive is a good way to get them to retreat to their echo chambers only to come out with even shittier opinions. That's why, you colossally selfish moron. Calling people out for being lovely racists is not "being a complete poo poo to [them]." The idea that it's reasonable to say "you hurt my feelings so now I have no choice but to be worse" is one of the most toxic ideas our political landscape has produced.
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Aug 21, 2018 13:41
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EvilJoven posted:Because being a complete poo poo to someone and putting them on the defensive is a good way to get them to retreat to their echo chambers only to come out with even shittier opinions. That's why, you colossally selfish moron. actually, it's good, and not bad, to not engage with someone who's absolutely not asking questions in good faith hth
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Aug 21, 2018 13:46
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Calling them out is one thing, never let it go unchallenged, but sometimes a bit of tact works wonders. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes This dude's probably done a lot more to combat racism than anyone in this entire thread and from the sound of things he did it without whipping himself into an endorphin fueled froth chasing that angry leftist outrage high.
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Aug 21, 2018 13:49
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I watched a CBC youtube clip on it last night and idk if their Ottawa correspondent is conservative or what but he was talking about how the woman was just trying to ask Trudeau questions and he completely undeservedly called her a racist and the Anchor interjected "She was saying {{something in french}}, which translates approximately to 'Old Stock Quebec' , which effectively means white people". I laughed pretty heartily at that, and even more at the correspondent's followup, which was to ignore the comment and keep talking about what was obviously an overreaction to an innocent question.
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Aug 21, 2018 13:51
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EvilJoven posted:Calling them out is one thing, never let it go unchallenged, but sometimes a bit of tact works wonders. Right, an endorphin fuelled froth, just like the PM was clearly displaying 
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Aug 21, 2018 13:55
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I never once said PM Selfie didn't do a good thing when he called her out. He did it the right way. EDIT: he shut it down at his event. That was a good move. I still think that in the end just going 'hey lady that's racist cut that out' isn't going to do anything effective in the long term of fixing the ever increasing xenophobia we're seeing without addressing the things causing this rise in xenophobia in the first place. He stamped out the fire without kicking embers all over the place but if he leaves it at that it's just going to catch again and again. EvilJoven fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Aug 21, 2018 |
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Aug 21, 2018 13:56
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brucio posted:https://twitter.com/natnewswatch/status/1031867106860646405 He sure likes the smell of his own farts. I can't imagine government officials wasting that much time on somebody who currently has almost no power and only maybe has the chance to have power again. Like, I love how it's about what a conservative government could do for the relationship with India, when India isn't going to be voting for this guy.
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Aug 21, 2018 14:07
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Oh my bad, misread that context. Regardless, tact can only go so far, and I'll reiterate that engaging with someone who is absolutely not going to talk to you in good faith is bad.
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Aug 21, 2018 14:07
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EvilJoven posted:Canada might have a lot of space but it's easy to convince people that more immigration, especially from areas where the populace in general is used to a lower quality of life, will result in more competition for an ever shrinking pool of decent jobs and a further stagnation or depression of working wages. The reality may be the opposite; immigration on it's own IIRC correlates to more job opportunities overall, but it's quite easy to convince people of the latter when there really has been a steady decline of employment opportunities, job security, and salary due to things like automation, corporate consolidation, etc. Yeah I think this is the root of the problem. There have been really big structural changes in our society over the last four decades or so, that have led to a big decline in good jobs and workers' wages. Personally I lay the lion's share of the blame on automation, globalization, and the erosion of the welfare state by consecutive generations of neoliberal politicians. The end result is that a lot of jobs have been lost, whether due to automation or unbalanced offshoring to countries with lower labour costs, the safety net for those who have lost their jobs has been cut back, and the new jobs that are open to them aren't as good. This is a serious problem. At the same time, the rich have gotten significantly richer because all these processes have been good for them: automation makes them more money with lower upkeep, globalization allows them to reduce their costs and move their income to lower-taxed countries, and the erosion of the welfare state means what taxes they do pay here are reduced and labour's bargaining power is eroded, making it easier for them to exert power over their remaining workers in Canada. This leads to worsening inequality and makes people more status-conscious. At the same time, over the same period, there has been an increase in immigration from non-white countries. Immigration itself hasn't actually increased substantially, Canada has always been a country of immigrants:   What has changed is where those immigrants are coming from:  (Thanks Statscan) This phenomenon is unrelated to, but has temporally coincided with, the globalization of the world economy, automation reducing older jobs, and the neoliberal erosion of the welfare state. As EvilJoven mentioned, it seems that immigration is actually a net benefit for developed economies, especially since white Canadians frankly don't have many children anymore, which means without immigration you get a top-heavy population pyramid that puts an even greater strain on our welfare state. You already see this happening in places like the Maritimes, where a lack of immigrants and an exodus of youth has put their economies in a death spiral (if you haven't read this classic piece on the subject by John Ibbitson, you should). These two phenomena make for an extremely volatile political situation, because white people with entrenched social, economic, cultural, and political power suddenly feel those things shrinking while an increasing number of visible minorities coexist with them. There's a strong temptation to treat it like a zero-sum game where if you (a white person) are losing power and influence, someone else must be gaining power and influence. But why turn on immigrants and people of colour? Why not turn on the rich who have actually been the driving force and the main beneficiaries of these economic transformations? I can't put all the blame on the Canadian media, because the Canadian media is frankly not that powerful. I think a huge part of the problem is that, as you're all aware, we absorb a ton of American culture by osmosis. Our countries are so deeply tied together historically, linguistically, economically, culturally, that any change that happens in the US affects us as well. And the US has been increasingly captured by a well-funded and well-organized right-wing movement that, since the 1980s, has successfully shifted the blame for economic problems from the wealthy to people of colour, especially onto two stereotypes: the black welfare queen who tricks the state into misallocating social spending, and the Mexican illegal immigrant who steals American jobs. Since 9/11 these have been joined by a third, non-economic stereotype, the Muslim terrorist who wants to destroy American culture and society. In America, this means that a lot of the status anxiety inherent in worsening inequality (and I've said this before, but inequality is not only economic. Economic inequality is much easier to quantify, so it's what gets studied, but the status-anxiety effects of inequality apply to all different lines of inequality) gets redirected onto the racialized other. This is not a new phenomenon in the United States, it has always had these racist and nativist currents, but it has been amplified and given new life in the era of mass media and modern telecommunications. Recently it has worsened, not only because of the amplifying effects of social media etc., but also because there was a generational shift in the Republican Party where several decades of politicians and the wealthy cynically exploiting these racial divides to pass neoliberal changes created a generation of true believers, who have now fully replaced the cynical generation as the leaders of the conservative movement. What this means for Canada is that we have absorbed a huge amount of American political culture, and morphed it to fit our own circumstances. Canadians are not so different from Americans, and what works in America politically often works here as well. We absorb so much American discourse that we often project their problems onto our own, and racial stereotyping and redirection of anxiety onto immigrants has been no different. When American political discourse spends several decades telling people that their economic problems are because of immigration, Canadians start to think that as well. And every now and then we also get a sudden spike in these feelings, particularly when a crisis especially reminds us of America--for example, the problem of undocumented border crossers. Does it matter that in our case they're asylum seekers coming from the US rather than economic migrants coming from Mexico? Not really, because we've been conditioned to think that irregular border crossings means problems for the economy, because that's what decades of exposure to American political culture has told us. The end result is that we end up in a very similar political situation to the US. We're facing structural changes in our economy and the role of the state that have made the majority of our population more precarious and more anxious about their status in society, while simultaneously we've had a wave of immigration by people of colour. Stereotyping (especially effective for white people living in communities without large numbers of people of colour) and political discourse at least partly shaped by American political culture has meant our anxieties end up getting expressed in racial rather than economic terms, and get expressed in sentiments like "Illegal border crossing is a crisis and Canada cannot afford to bring in any more immigrants". We aren't basing these views on economic facts and figures and statistics, we're basing them on our gut reaction to hearing the news, which is shaped by decades of anti-immigrant propaganda. What can we do about this? gently caress if I know. It might help if our entire political class wasn't full of spineless cowards who, on the right, are happy to embrace nativist xenophobia if it means winning; in the centre, are more concerned about keeping their donors happy and hanging onto power than about effecting any positive change; and on the left, are too scared of offending anyone to confront the wealthy people who are destroying our civilization. And this is all without even mentioning how we're all going to die from climate change. The world is such a happy place these days.
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Aug 21, 2018 14:32
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Speaking of us all dying of climate change the ice north of Greenland is breaking up and being pushed out to sea and this is the first time it's ever happened and a lot of scientists are going 'welp... poo poo' because they thought that the ice in that region was going to be the last to go. But it's fine lets try to combat our species going at each other's throats in ineffective ways because it gives us a rush without asking for any significant personal sacrifice.
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Aug 21, 2018 14:54
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PT6A posted:Where the gently caress do these people live that Canada appears even remotely full to them? I mean, I know it's just racist anxiety at work when you get right down to it, I'm just curious if they even attempt to justify to themselves the idea that one of the least densely populated and richest nations on earth is remotely "full." Or any similar process in the several square kilometres of Canada that include 1000 or more humans at any given point, and a person getting stupid(er) and angry(ier) in a line half a dozen spots behind somebody wearing a turban. At that point, Mr. and Mrs. White Ontario Suburbia convince themselves that "We're Full gently caress Off" is a meaningful and defensible political position.
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Aug 21, 2018 14:55
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huh I had it my head we had a million immigrants arriving in 1912 but it was from 1910-1912. Basically the same effect where Canada absorbed a ton of people while having a much smaller population.quote:Why not turn on the rich who have actually been the driving force and the main beneficiaries of these economic transformations? My best attempt to explain it is a combination of entrenched wealth and patronage that, while it has largely disappeared at a federal level, still exists locally and in some cases, provincially, in much of Canada. And let's face it, provinces are quite powerful in our federated system, so it's hard to really tackle that kind of political system if you're not an insider already. Couple that with the fact that post-war social democracy actually working to alleviate the stress of a mobilized working class, while also massaging class consciousness in this country (hence every politician talking about the "middle class") over the course of a few decades. Meanwhile we happily de-radicalized unions and threw anyone still politically radical in jail (although a lot of that was in the 30s) with our quiet Cold War domestic surveillance programs and you have a population that doesn't think much about people who are richer than them, and, for a time, did care to some extent about the material conditions of those poorer than them. Except of course First Nations people. Anyway much of that is coming undone as you said, and it's far easier to hate on people who are less powerful and have less status than you.
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Aug 21, 2018 15:29
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People turn on immigrants because they're an easy target with no political influence. It's got nothing to do with Canada specifically, it's a timeless world wide phenomenon. It's really easy to see your communities becoming more crowded than before and conclude that it must be because there's more people, specifically more foreign people. It's less obvious to conclude it's because of the money laundering super rich who own the media and powerful lobbies whose entire purpose it is to convince politicians and the general public that these problems are not in large part because of wholesale tax dodging.
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Aug 21, 2018 16:15
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vyelkin posted:good effort posting Don't forget that Conservatives have also weaponized racism against indigenous people but convincing their base that current agreements sends millions of hard earned tax payer money to a group that just needs to get over it already.
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Aug 21, 2018 16:46
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I feel like this is going to backfire on the Cons. The main way the Liberals win elections is by moving centre left voters to them and away from the NDP. If the Cons go full Trump, then those voters will "strategically vote" for Liberals. There's a lot more votes for the liberals to be mined out of the NDP (via fear of right wing government) then there are more votes for the Cons to mine out of the Libs (via fear of immigrants) is what I'm thinking. Maybe the boomers are old and scared enough now that that has changed, but the Harper/Trudeau dynamic seemed a lot like the Chretien/Manning dynamic.
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Aug 21, 2018 17:22
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Seldom Posts posted:I feel like this is going to backfire on the Cons. The main way the Liberals win elections is by moving centre left voters to them and away from the NDP. If the Cons go full Trump, then those voters will "strategically vote" for Liberals. This relies heavily on the generations below boomers increasing their abysmal voting participation. Something PR probably would have slowly helped fix but welp.
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Aug 21, 2018 17:34
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Seldom Posts posted:I feel like this is going to backfire on the Cons. The main way the Liberals win elections is by moving centre left voters to them and away from the NDP. If the Cons go full Trump, then those voters will "strategically vote" for Liberals. When's the election? Next fall? That's another year and a bit full of higher crime (it is actually on the rise, sadly) and a full year of Van/TO housing downturn in which the Cons can exploit the worsening socioeconomic conditions in our country to their favor. Unless PM Selfie actually does something beyond words to make things better the PCs are going to win and it's going to suck.
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Aug 21, 2018 17:41
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Furnaceface posted:This relies heavily on the generations below boomers increasing their abysmal voting participation. Something PR probably would have slowly helped fix but welp. Last federal election had the highest turnout of young voters in forever, right? I hope that we younguns can build some momentum.
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Aug 21, 2018 19:26
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Seldom Posts posted:I feel like this is going to backfire on the Cons. The main way the Liberals win elections is by moving centre left voters to them and away from the NDP. If the Cons go full Trump, then those voters will "strategically vote" for Liberals.  no they won't. Somebody post one of the those polls that says 90% or whatever of Conservative voters would never consider voting for any other party, I can't find one atm.
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Aug 21, 2018 21:14
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.