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Levitate posted:I'm not a game designer by any stretch but I feel like the move to 3D and the complexity of games these days might have something to do with how maps are done compared to how they were done in OG Doom. Different strengths and different constraints and also decades of people figuring out ways to do cool new things with it rather than trying to get a big budget game out the door on a timeline. Nu-Doom's great because it harkens back to its past, and the moving and shooting's a lot of fun, but the levels are pretty much all bespoke combat arenas seperated by zombie hallways and I hope Eternal's gotten better about that. Neo Rasa posted:This is very broad of course and there have always been great games coming out every year, but I think it's just in the last couple of years that we've seen an attempt at really good FPS levels coming back.
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Aug 22, 2018 19:21
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Mordja posted:I'd say the best of that is in those indie, throwback shooters like DUSK and Ion Maiden, though. 
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Aug 22, 2018 19:24
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Everything became about showing off graphics a while back. Plus things cost much more to make now. So you have to sell the most copies possible which leads to bland gameplay and other issues.
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Aug 22, 2018 19:40
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Neo Rasa posted:There was a general games are too complicated vibe going on that you can see in a lot of interviews with designers and so on throughout the early and mid 00s. They were right to an extent, but the end result of that was kind of an opposite extreme for a lot of series where the idea of good level design and how important level design is to making a game feel awesome kind of went out the window. Deus Ex: Invisible War immediately comes to mind. "What if there was only a single ammo type that all your guns used?" Also with fairly limited and uninspiring level design compared to its predecessor, for a number of reasons.
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Aug 22, 2018 19:41
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Neo Rasa posted:Let me put it this way, John Carmack left id Software in 2013, but "Doom 4" had been in development since like 2007. I knew someone personally who had done some concept art for it as early as 2008. Yea I'm actually a big fan of the whole "wall slides down to reveal a shitload of monsters" gimmicks and I wish Do4m would have done that occasionally rather the just having the teleporting in enemies.
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Aug 22, 2018 19:42
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It could have been great self parody.
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I know it’s kinda fruitless me saying this now when it’s not out but all you goons hating on Doom 3 for various (very valid) reasons, definitely need to look at Doom 3: Phobos when it comes out. It’s a Doom 3 episode made with modern hardware in mind (more level detail, more monsters) and reworked weaponry so that the guns are actually good to use in a run-and-gun game style. Made by classic Doom mappers who have a really good sense of level design and non-linear spaces. Only problem is it’s being made by like 4 guys so progress has been fairly slow. But it owns owns owns.
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Aug 22, 2018 19:42
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MysteriousStranger posted:Everything became about showing off graphics a while back. Plus things cost much more to make now. So you have to sell the most copies possible which leads to bland gameplay and other issues. Everything has been about showing off graphics since Commander Keen, at least.
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Aug 22, 2018 19:42
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Yea I'm actually a big fan of the whole "wall slides down to reveal a shitload of monsters" gimmicks and I wish Do4m would have done that occasionally rather the just having the teleporting in enemies. That gets ragged on as monsters closets though so it doesn't happen as much
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Aug 22, 2018 19:47
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User posted:Everything has been about showing off graphics since Commander Keen, at least. "Graphics are basically like real life now" - me reading Game Informer's preview article on Quake 3 Arena (1999)
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Aug 22, 2018 19:53
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AirRaid posted:I know it’s kinda fruitless me saying this now when it’s not out but all you goons hating on Doom 3 for various (very valid) reasons, definitely need to look at Doom 3: Phobos when it comes out. Ok, but why though? We got Doom 2016 now. Also Doom: Eternal soon
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Aug 22, 2018 20:00
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Levitate posted:I'm not a game designer by any stretch but I feel like the move to 3D and the complexity of games these days might have something to do with how maps are done compared to how they were done in OG Doom. Different strengths and different constraints and also decades of people figuring out ways to do cool new things with it rather than trying to get a big budget game out the door on a timeline. Its largely realism. In doom everything is so rough and abstract that they can do whatever works, whatever is fun, you're totally untethered. This remains true of doom wads today. You can go make a doom level or a half-life level and the doom level is gonna be better because you're going to spend 20 hours in half-life making sure the windows line up right and the posts don't clip through the ground and poo poo like that which doesn't even matter in doom. So in doom you instead don't have those constraints plus you've got 20 extra hours of playtesting and making things fun. Games becoming more detailed has also required them to become more accurate, to the detriment of design. Even if you're not trying to create an ARMA sim, the spaces in games like call of duty still have to feel realistic. There have to be buildings with floors and doors and windows and such, and then they have to find clever ways to mess with that and block off areas and create a fun environment within that. Doom you just throw some cubes together and put BRICKWALL on it and call it a day.
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Aug 22, 2018 20:03
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Zzulu posted:Ok, but why though? Because it's good. And it's more good Doom. And it makes Doom 3 worthwhile. And I'm minorly involved in it so I'm pimping it.
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Aug 22, 2018 20:04
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Yea I'm actually a big fan of the whole "wall slides down to reveal a shitload of monsters" gimmicks and I wish Do4m would have done that occasionally rather the just having the teleporting in enemies. I like this when it's an "oh poo poo" event and a couple Barons stomp out and start lighting things up. I remember it being pretty annoying in Heretic when it always seemed like "here's another half dozen imps (the flying Heretic kind, not the spiky Doom kind) to tediously snipe down".
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Aug 22, 2018 20:08
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Oh yeah when you run into the first pair of barons at the end of the episode 1 it fuckin' owns and is a great oh poo poo moment, just Doom 3 went waaaaay overboard. Heretic man, I wanted to love that game but for real it had way too many of those drat gargoyles. Doom 3 is a bit similar, they made some cool new enemies for it but you fight like a trillion imps instead, but keep in mind they're extremely boring compared to Doom 2016 imps so it's extremely tedious. Doom 3 has this one enemy (Wraiths IIRC), they're like a small/hunched over thing with a blade arm that can teleport short distances, you fight a very small number of them across the whole game but they're awesome and actually play to the strengths of how Doom 3 looks and sounds and is built. Shame too because Doom 3 had a couple of cool enemies like that and enemy behavior but it's never really used well in the game. Like the enemies can technically infight with each other and there's even a rank system of lower level demons not attacking higher level ones and stuff but it will almost never occur in actual gameplay due to the way the levels are designed. The plasma rifle can be used to deflect/stop projectiles but outside of one boss fight you might never even notice this is possible, etc. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Aug 22, 2018 |
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Aug 22, 2018 20:20
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Neo Rasa posted:The plasma rifle can be used to deflect/stop projectiles but outside of one boss fight you might never even notice this is possible, etc. what how
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Aug 22, 2018 20:46
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Wingnut Ninja posted:I like this when it's an "oh poo poo" event and a couple Barons stomp out and start lighting things up. I remember it being pretty annoying in Heretic when it always seemed like "here's another half dozen imps (the flying Heretic kind, not the spiky Doom kind) to tediously snipe down". For sure, monster closets can be lovely. But a good example that doom used fairly often, and that do4m could do would be having a closet of Lost Soul's all lined up across a gap and the wall drops down releasing them so they all charge at you at around the same time. Another good one could be an arena fight, but at the end of it a huge door opens revealing another arena but all the monsters have already spawned in, or even better the existing arena that you are in just get's bigger by having all the walls drop away/ceiling raises now it's a bigger arena with more monsters. (OG Doom did this fairly often).
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Aug 22, 2018 20:51
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:For sure, monster closets can be lovely. But a good example that doom used fairly often, and that do4m could do would be having a closet of Lost Soul's all lined up across a gap and the wall drops down releasing them so they all charge at you at around the same time. Another good one could be an arena fight, but at the end of it a huge door opens revealing another arena but all the monsters have already spawned in, or even better the existing arena that you are in just get's bigger by having all the walls drop away/ceiling raises now it's a bigger arena with more monsters. (OG Doom did this fairly often). The first hell level in D64 did this and it was awesome cause it also gave you more weapons and ammo.
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Aug 22, 2018 20:55
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Psycho Landlord posted:what I don't think there was a technobabble reason provided in the game ironically considering the extensive amount of audio logs in it, but basically you just shoot it at projectiles and it dissipates them, or in the case of the Doom 3 Mancubus and other rocket type projectiles you can shoot it at them to make them detonate early. But the main time this comes in handy is when you fight the spider woman boss, as hitting her own projectiles back at her does waaay more damage than just your own weapons. An interesting side effect of this is that if you shoot a dead body with the plasma rifle before it disappears, it will get knocked back/around super easily. Agoat posted:The first hell level in D64 did this and it was awesome cause it also gave you more weapons and ammo. It can't be said enough, but Doom 64 absolutely rules.
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Aug 22, 2018 20:57
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Neo Rasa posted:I don't think there was a technobabble reason provided in the game ironically considering the extensive amount of audio logs in it, but basically you just shoot it at projectiles and it dissipates them, or in the case of the Doom 3 Mancubus and other rocket type projectiles you can shoot it at them to make them detonate early. But the main time this comes in handy is when you fight the spider woman boss, as hitting her own projectiles back at her does waaay more damage than just your own weapons. They should include a free Doom 64 in Doom Eternal.
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Aug 22, 2018 21:12
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:even better the existing arena that you are in just get's bigger by having all the walls drop away/ceiling raises now it's a bigger arena with more monsters. (OG Doom did this fairly often). Yeah, that one's pretty fun, and also very thematically appropriate, because it means you're the one in the monster closet being unleashed on a new group of unsuspecting demons.
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Aug 22, 2018 21:12
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MysteriousStranger posted:They should include a free Doom 64 in Doom Eternal. I think it's in some weird rights hell.  It would be amazing if it actually got an official release again.Doom has been released and ported so many times, but I'm always surprised there was never quite a definitive anthology of it in all the times it's been ported like where you could switch between the music types on the fly, or the slightly faster speed on the XBox 1 port and stuff like that. Instead there were console exclusive (temporarily) episodes, different monster arrangements and types, and so on across the board. But on the other hand I guess with zDoom/etc. being a thing I guess there's been no point to something like that for a while. That reminds me, there's a pretty really good homebrew ports of Quake and Quake II for the Wii for how it has so many control options, it actually works great with the zapper and you can have it work like Metroid Prime 3 where you can aim the gun independently of where you're your viewpoint is centered which really lets you zip around blasting stuff. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Aug 22, 2018 |
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Aug 22, 2018 21:47
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I've never gotten to play doom 64, now I feel like I missed out
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Aug 22, 2018 21:59
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Donovan Trip posted:I've never gotten to play doom 64, now I feel like I missed out Fortunately you can get really good remakes of the WAD on PC to try it out. I prefer this one: https://www.moddb.com/mods/doom-64-retribution Depending on what you run it through you may have to edit a cfg file to make sure it's using the Doom II soundfont or it will sound really weird but other than that it's great and you can experience the game's moody colored lighting and creepy soundtrack and how its engine CAN do room over room but this is only used for cosmetic things like archways so it still feels like Doom. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Aug 22, 2018 |
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Aug 22, 2018 22:07
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People would probably like Doom3 alot more if it was called Resident Evil 3D: Get Your rear end to Mars. Doom3 is a solid first person survival horror game. DO4M is a horror game where you are the monster.
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Aug 22, 2018 22:32
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You can get a 99% perfect remaster of Doom64 using Doom64 EX since it straight up uses the original ROM to create a wad file. Just remember to delete it after 24 hours!
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Aug 22, 2018 22:39
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I'd finally played through Doom 3 and it's expansion a couple of months ago and loved it. It's not "Doom" in the sense that most would identify Doom: fast movement based satanic shooting funtimes, but I thought it did what it did well. It also had my favorite iteration of Hell, even over Doom/Doom 2/D44M. But as for the complaints about monsters closets and weak weapons, all that is true. But I still had fun with it.
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Aug 22, 2018 22:42
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chaosapiant posted:I'd finally played through Doom 3 and it's expansion a couple of months ago and loved it. It's not "Doom" in the sense that most would identify Doom: fast movement based satanic shooting funtimes, but I thought it did what it did well. It also had my favorite iteration of Hell, even over Doom/Doom 2/D44M. But as for the complaints about monsters closets and weak weapons, all that is true. But I still had fun with it. The hell part is definitely the best section of the game, coincidentaly also the part that is structured the most like Doom (down to the scripted terrain deformation and transformations are like the way arenas and rooms would switcj up to reveal more eneimes and so on.
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Aug 22, 2018 22:51
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I've posted this a million times but Doom 3 definitely gets better combat wise once you enter Hell and past that. It starts diversifying enemy types more beyond spawning an Imp or two and the levels open up to allow for more interesting encounters. Not to mention that within 2 hours and half you go from Hell to military base then caves and dig sites which is some nice variety. Too bad you have to go through 4 hours of labs to get there.
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Aug 22, 2018 23:03
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Doom3 hell levels were the best part of the game. ROE tried that with the final hell gauntlet, but it just didn't feel the same.
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Aug 23, 2018 02:06
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People would remember Doom 3 a lot more fondly if it didn't have Doom in the title. It's a fine game in its own right, but a terrible Doom game.
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Aug 23, 2018 04:05
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Uncle Kitchener posted:Doom3 hell levels were the best part of the game. ROE tried that with the final hell gauntlet, but it just didn't feel the same. The first time you enter hell in Doom 2016 the cage you arrive in in Doom 3 is hanging behind the start point so they knew. 
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Aug 23, 2018 04:51
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The only bad thing about D64 is it can occasionally turn into a really tedious switch hunt.
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Aug 23, 2018 05:12
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(for some context I'm an EU guy that barely knows Alex Jones aside from memes so if he's offensive I'll remove the video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Snw6qjlPSE
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Aug 23, 2018 05:17
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Guillermus posted:(for some context I'm an EU guy that barely knows Alex Jones aside from memes so if he's offensive I'll remove the video) 
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Aug 23, 2018 05:28
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Guillermus posted:(for some context I'm an EU guy that barely knows Alex Jones aside from memes so if he's offensive I'll remove the video) That's literally from the same account that posted the "SJW Snowflakes TRIGGERED by Doom Eternal" vid, and features such additional insightful megahits like "Social Justice Apologists in Gaming" and "Crazy Old Socialist vs the Fake News Media".
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Aug 23, 2018 05:35
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That sucks because the video was pretty funny.
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Aug 23, 2018 05:43
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Neo Rasa posted:I don't think there was a technobabble reason provided in the game ironically considering the extensive amount of audio logs in it, but basically you just shoot it at projectiles and it dissipates them, or in the case of the Doom 3 Mancubus and other rocket type projectiles you can shoot it at them to make them detonate early. But the main time this comes in handy is when you fight the spider woman boss, as hitting her own projectiles back at her does waaay more damage than just your own weapons. This isn’t limited to the plasma rifle. It’s most obvious with the plasma because that gun has huge projectiles with a large hit box but since all projectiles are physically simulated they can all be shot, with any weapon. Though picking an imp fireball out of the air with a pistol is gonna take some doing. There’s actually a video file in game about how the BFG is vulnerable to small arms fire, and showing that if you can shoot the core of the projectile it will detonate early. Shortly before you fight Sarge who has a BFG.
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Aug 23, 2018 07:09
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Yeah, you can easily cheese the Doom 3 Revenant's homing rockets with the plasma gun due to the projectiles' size. It pretty much removes all difficulty from any encounter with them. And THE DOOMHUNTER in Eternal is obviously taking its design inspiration from Sarge/Sabaoth. GUI fucked around with this message at 07:24 on Aug 23, 2018 |
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Aug 23, 2018 07:22
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Origami Dali posted:That's literally from the same account that posted the "SJW Snowflakes TRIGGERED by Doom Eternal" vid, and features such additional insightful megahits like "Social Justice Apologists in Gaming" and "Crazy Old Socialist vs the Fake News Media". "Internet user FORCED to watch videos on youtube!" like, comment and subscribe!
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Aug 23, 2018 07:50
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On a note unrelated to horrible CHUDs, this video is still the best.
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Aug 23, 2018 08:11
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