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MaxieSatan posted:Again, I would happily vote for the Socialists if they weren't actively propping up a tyrant under the guise of anti-imperialism. They're forcing him to liberalize at gunpoint and that's just step 1, it's not like they're gonna stop there. Obviously this is far worse for the locals than a devastating war where they get gunned down by a massively superior army and then get ruled by capitalists even more disconnected from them that continue all the slavery and colonial policies with a new name on the paperwork.
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Aug 24, 2018 03:46
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The khedive of the Congo basin and Mozambique votes for the Socialist party. I know many of you here in this assembly assume that I carry the tyrannical blood of my father, that I desire to see central africa become a regime of blood under my rule. I present to you a different man. Until now Al Andalus has extracted wealth FROM the African. We have believed we could civilize him through steel and gunpowder. But there is no glory in a throne of bayonets. But I believe the path to civilization to be very different. A radical redistribution of wealth in the african sphere. Guaranteed education, wages, infrastructure, health care. The african should have autonomy, and the right to self assembly. All inevitably answerable to the Majlis and the sultan, of course. I swear on my father's grave, that by the turn of the century there shall be no one more andalusi than an african andalusi.
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Aug 24, 2018 03:47
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Frionnel posted:We just lost an important ally in the SGU. The one we got to replace them, Japan, is unreliable in an European war and has made enemies of and increasingly more powerful China. Right now if Morocco or France attacks us we're basically alone. The Socialists will just stand there and be sitting ducks waiting for foreign agression. And exactly because they refuse on principle to help any of our current allies, we're at risk of alienating even the most trustworthy, like Benin. The SGU Alliance is the only reason Russia was against us in the last War. We honestly are better off without them now. France folded like a wet paper bag and got hosed up badly in the last War, They don't have the reserves to crack a defensive line in the Pyrenees. Morocco is cut down to size. Plus its Indian & African Holdings are massively vulnerable to our non-Euro allies. They don't have their foothold in Iberia any longer, and their navy is inferior to ours for the first time in centuries. The only European ally I want is Russia... but I think that ship sailed.
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Aug 24, 2018 03:49
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My point is not that the SGU was a great ally. My point is that we replaced them with someone even less capable of helping us. We need better friends, and only the Moderates will go out and look for any. And don't forget, Russia is now allied with the Dual Monarchy. Frionnel fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Aug 24, 2018 |
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Aug 24, 2018 03:52
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We need zero friends because it is incredibly easy to not get in any wars in Victoria as long as you're not holding on to anybody else's cores and don't feel like starting any yourself. Just don't get in wars, unironically bing bong so simple. And on the small chance that we do, our only land border is a fortified mountain range that you'd need like a 15:1 advantage to crack, and everywhere else is ocean while we've got a kickass navy. Allies only serve to drag us into other peoples' bullshit.
Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Aug 24, 2018 |
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Aug 24, 2018 03:53
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I forgot about Khedive Moderates
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Aug 24, 2018 03:54
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tatankatonk posted:Voting for Fascism I'm sorry, I was too early in my insults. Please sir, eat my entire rear end.
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Aug 24, 2018 03:56
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Jack2142 posted:Morocco is cut down to size. Plus its Indian & African Holdings are massively vulnerable to our non-Euro allies. None of the AI is going to declare war on Morocco for anything except MAYBE Japan for the raj lol. Even then it would only be because our alliance (which we're going to dishonour if we don't break it immediately once the socialists come to power) is messing with the calculation, Morocco still has 230+ mil score and it's only going to go back up as it rebuilds its armies and navies. Seriously y'all are debating hard between moderate isolationism and mega isolationism. But neither are the solution, kick em while they're down and then go for socialist-isolationism! Imperialists!!!
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Aug 24, 2018 03:58
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Anything other than isolationism is gonna get us immediately dragged into an unwinnable Great War with Russia over some dumb piece of Siberia or maybe it'll start over Liverpool but either way lol it's just so incredibly stupid to bother with foreign allies these days.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:00
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Crazycryodude posted:They're forcing him to liberalize at gunpoint and that's just step 1, it's not like they're gonna stop there. Obviously this is far worse for the locals than a devastating war where they get gunned down by a massively superior army and then get ruled by capitalists even more disconnected from them that continue all the slavery and colonial policies with a new name on the paperwork. Your mistake is in assuming that the Khedive ruled through legitimate power in the first place, and that - as a result - any agreement with the Socialists will be worth a drat. Sure, force him to liberalize at gunpoint while he continues to amass wealth, albeit at a slower rate. Force him to adopt liberal policies while he continues to shore up his legitimacy as colonial governor, continues to build up his personal army and bodyguard. And then watch when, a decade hence, he uses the opportunity to bring about an even more powerful rebellion. See, the thing about "forcing him to liberalize at gunpoint" is the forcing at gunpoint part. If he won't step down when pro-military parties come knocking, he's sure as hell not going to play ball when an anti-military one practically hands him the region on a silver platter, all for promises which he can easily renege on the instant he has the opportunity to do so. Eventually, there's going to be a reckoning, and the only question is this: quick and dirty, or slow and filthy beyond belief?
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Aug 24, 2018 04:02
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Hiveminded posted:None of the AI is going to declare war on Morocco for anything except MAYBE Japan for the raj lol. Even then it would only be because our alliance (which we're going to dishonour if we don't break it immediately once the socialists come to power) is messing with the calculation, Morocco still has 230+ mil score and it's only going to go back up as it rebuilds its armies and navies. I don't think you noticed I voted Imperialist.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:02
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Crazycryodude posted:We need zero friends because it is incredibly easy to not get in any wars in Victoria as long as you're not holding on to anybody else's cores and don't feel like starting any yourself. Honestly i think these arguments of "this is how it goes in the game" are super fragile because Hashim has shown time and time again that he will interfere with the normal flow of the games he is LPing here to make a more interesting narrative. See the fitna at the end of EU4. That kind of thing is plainly impossible in EU4 and only happened because Hashim wrote special events for the occasion. Nobody itt that has played EU4 before could predict that.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:05
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MaxieSatan posted:See, the thing about "forcing him to liberalize at gunpoint" is the forcing at gunpoint part. If he won't step down when pro-military parties come knocking, he's sure as hell not going to play ball when an anti-military one practically hands him the region on a silver platter, all for promises which he can easily renege on the instant he has the opportunity to do so. Lol he's not stepping down because all the other factions are attempting to at best throw him in jail and two of the three would probably hang him. And no, not because he's guilty of massive loving crimes against humanity, because THEY want to be the ones looting Africa instead of him. It's desperate self-preservation because surrendering now to the "pro-military" parties is a worse choice than trying to fight because if he fights he at least has a minuscule chance of getting off. It's extremely obvious that he can't actually win a war against Al-Andalus and both sides know it, if he can find a deal that doesn't end with his head on a spike in 3 years he'll take it. The Socialists aren't loving idiots nor are they pacifists, in fact one of their priorities is defense (actual defense, not the euphemism it is today). If the Khedive wants to be a shithead and not hold up his end of the deal, the Socialists will just sail the Iron Fleet down his way and shell his palace until he does. Or at least they drat well better, but I can't imagine they wouldn't. Doesn't hurt to ask the OP, I guess. Hashim, if the Khedive tries to back out/skimp on the conditions the Socailists lay down, will they go make him? Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Aug 24, 2018 |
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Aug 24, 2018 04:08
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I'm with you, but we've lost this war. The question is do we go full Monarchist in the 20th century or do we deal with these stupid, stupid, thrice stupid wannabe socialists?
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Aug 24, 2018 04:09
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Crazycryodude posted:Hashim, if the Khedive tries to back out/skimp on the conditions the Socailists lay down, will they go make him? A little late in the day to be asking the question.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:11
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Hey calling us the Russia of this timeline is completely offbase! We're just socially and economically behind everyone, not militarily.  Don't you dare compare us to them ever again.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:12
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Voting for Socialism. It's time. 
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Aug 24, 2018 04:12
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Jack2142 posted:I don't think you noticed I voted Imperialist. Well there's like a handful of liberal voters and a bunch of resigned coward liberals going moderate because moderates managed to get a lead in the first hour of voting and ~oOooOo ~ sOoOcialism ~ spOoOoky~. It's hard to keep track, sorry. But gently caress the socialists regardless, is *now* really the time to pull out of Africa and piss in a corner when another ten years can let us gut a friendless Morocco and take enough of Africa (with the loving hand-monger Khedivate deposed) to then make actually decent, well-functioning post-colonial nations not divvied up along retarded Euro-empire boundaries?
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Aug 24, 2018 04:13
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Why the hell are we assuming the socialists are against monarchy, anyway? The career politicians they send to participate in bourgeois politics are not going topple the Sultan any time soon.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:13
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Good tip. Post colonist nations never turn out well because the very nature of colonialism is to heavily exploit the native people and resources and the industry built so accordingly. Besides, we're never going to go socialist if we keep making the excuse of "Oh we gotta conquer these guys first, or we gotta conquer/cut down THOSE guys first."
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Aug 24, 2018 04:14
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Yall do realize that we aren't really threatened by foreign aggression, right? It's pretty low odds that another GP bothers to justify a cb on us, even moreso that they bring the clowncar in. Even then worst comes to worst we can just give them whatever chunk of africa or asia they want, or even still win just by smart turtling.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:16
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Moderates I’ve decided since my Japan LP basically went down the same road at the end we should too
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Aug 24, 2018 04:18
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Frionnel posted:Why the hell are we assuming the socialists are against monarchy, anyway? The career politicians they send to participate in bourgeois politics are not going topple the Sultan any time soon. Yea, basically. They're the rich sons of Majilis who read trendy Socialists texts while studying in Hannover. They're not going to institute the revolution but they'll totally screw up the diplomatic situation.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:18
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Good point, when's the last time we actually fought a war that was started directly against us that we didn't actively want? Pretty much every war we've gotten in that we didn't start has been sparked by some drat fool thing in Germany or the British Isles and we get called in by an ally. When's the last time somebody actually took offensive action directly against us, personally, and not some loser ally that immediately folds and leaves us to fight all of Europe alone? When's the last time an ally actively helped us achieve something positive that we would have otherwise not achieved? I can really only think of times we've had to pull somebody's rear end out of the fire at great personal cost for little gain.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:20
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The update before this.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:21
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I figure 10 years of Socialism to shore up our industry and infrastructure then some one else to put the final nail in the coffin of morocco. Reading this I am honestly quite torn between the parties (except royalists gently caress those guys). Which is a testament to Hashims great LP. I eventually settled on socialism over moderates simply to keep the reform train moving.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:22
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Mantis42 posted:The update before this. Yeah the war where both our allies got effortlessly crushed by the Russian tidal wave and did nothing but give the enemy free warscore as we had to fight all of Europe and Morocco by ourselves for years on end to get three provinces back.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:23
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Aug 24, 2018 04:23
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If anything, our allies have generally done nothing but drag down our war score. I am SUPREMELY confident in our ability to beat back literally the entirety of Europe arrayed against us if we maintain our mountain wall fort, that's just how drat strong late game dig ins on a mountain are, even if you aren't going full gamey strats like I'm sure hash wont. All it'll take is one of the hell battles to break and we'll be 50 war score up and able to dictate terms to free some minor.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:23
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Moderates are the way to go to bring trains and stability to our great country again.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:23
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Crazycryodude posted:When's the last time an ally actively helped us achieve something positive that we would have otherwise not achieved? We only won the last war because the Celts completely trashed the french for us and the SGU held back the russians for years. They were beyond helpful and without them we would be the ones cut down to size.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:25
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ChaseSP posted:Good tip. Post colonist nations never turn out well because the very nature of colonialism is to heavily exploit the native people and resources and the industry built so accordingly. Besides, we're never going to go socialist if we keep making the excuse of "Oh we gotta conquer these guys first, or we gotta conquer/cut down THOSE guys first." Look you can't seriously make the argument that NOW is the time to "decolonise" everything and leave it in the hands of our little loving jungle king and that it wouldn't be a million times better to kick out the loving berbers first. I WANT to put the Socialists in power, this is just an incredibly dumb time to do it from a narrative perspective -- and we're playing for the narrative, not just to minmax so we can see a shiny industry score at the end of vicky. When Morocco is gone we'll have the actual option of African nations with sensible ethnic or geographic boundaries that are also self-secure, in addition to scrapping the lovely khedive; how is that not a massive improvement for a subsequent socialist term interested in decolonisation? A socialist term is just going to magnify the problem and push it down the line. Are we going to let the Almoravids and Khedive gently caress around until we then put the imperialists back in because we realised we hosed up and everything's a loving mess in Africa and the Berbers like they always do are making it even fuckier? Why does it have to be socialism now when just getting this done will make everything that much smoother for socialists in the last thirty years? It's nonsense.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:26
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Frionnel posted:We only won the last war because the Celts completely trashed the french for us and the SGU held back the russians for years. They were beyond helpful and without them we would be the ones cut down to size. Why don't u call their leaders up and have them defend themselves oh wait u can't they got guillotined aaaaaaaaa owned bitch
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Aug 24, 2018 04:27
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Can we unban the communists please
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Aug 24, 2018 04:28
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Hiveminded posted:Look you can't seriously make the argument that NOW is the time to "decolonise" everything and leave it in the hands of our little loving jungle king and that it wouldn't be a million times better to kick out the loving berbers first. I WANT to put the Socialists in power, this is just an incredibly dumb time to do it from a narrative perspective -- and we're playing for the narrative, not just to minmax so we can see a shiny industry score at the end of vicky. When Morocco is gone we'll have the actual option of African nations with sensible ethnic or geographic boundaries that are also self-secure, in addition to scrapping the lovely khedive; how is that not a massive improvement for a subsequent socialist term interested in decolonisation? Because it's not instantly tearing down everything, and what the socialists will do is actually force Khedive to cut back on doing horrible poo poo vs everyone else either wanting to let things go as usual, or take over and oppress everyone ourselves.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:28
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Hiveminded posted:Look you can't seriously make the argument that NOW is the time to "decolonise" everything and leave it in the hands of our little loving jungle king and that it wouldn't be a million times better to kick out the loving berbers first. I WANT to put the Socialists in power, this is just an incredibly dumb time to do it from a narrative perspective -- and we're playing for the narrative, not just to minmax so we can see a shiny industry score at the end of vicky. When Morocco is gone we'll have the actual option of African nations with sensible ethnic or geographic boundaries that are also self-secure, in addition to scrapping the lovely khedive; how is that not a massive improvement for a subsequent socialist term interested in decolonisation? I feel like everyone is working with different ideas of decolonization. Hashim, will the socialists immediately or ever release their african holdings as dominions in their first decade in power?
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Aug 24, 2018 04:31
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Here's how I see it: There's a war a-coming. It might not be here in the next 10 years, hell, we may even dodge it for the next 20, but there's no way that Al Andalus is making through V2 without being right at the center of a great war. If there's a diplomatic incident or there's just plain them lusting for our colonies, Russia/France can tear Iberia apart. If Morocco/SGU try to attack, it'll be a longshot, but either the Berbers will gank Africa or the Germans will gank Iberia. There's no pleasant way around that. Even if you don't lose, it'll hurt. And that's assuming they don't nab up any other allies, or the power blocs don't join up while you have your heads in the sand. There's a thousand and one reasons for people to attack Al Andalus, and like gently caress is Al Andalus going to have smooth sailing when the world goes to poo poo. Al Andalus is more isolated than it's ever been, and a good alliance can stave off a war by seeming too tough to attack or make it more survivable, and you need to get started on that now, or you'll be picking last at a dodgeball game. You don't want to get stuck trying to beg for help from Serbia or Armenia because all the other power blocs hate your guts. -Imperialists won't make European Alliances a priority and might accidentally spark off the war from overextension while other nations lust for Andalusian Africa/Asia and just try to take a bite. -Socialists will leave you totally isolated and leave Africa under a tyrant who may pull an Ibriz and secede or something. I think this happened in the Lubeck LP. Even if the war doesn't go off under their tenure, it'll just hurt more when it does. Too little diplomacy, too late. -Royalists...well, they'll leave Africa in tyranny, and they may even spark off the war, but they'll try their best to win, and it'd be the drat coolest thing to watch.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:36
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Let's accept this theory that the Khedive might secede (which, considering we're granting him autonomy anyway, seems unlikely) why do we care
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Aug 24, 2018 04:39
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ChaseSP posted:Because it's not instantly tearing down everything, and what the socialists will do is actually force Khedive to cut back on doing horrible poo poo vs everyone else either wanting to let things go as usual, or take over and oppress everyone ourselves. Dude it's going to be one white shithead dictating everything locally instead of a collection of white shitheads dictating everything from Qadis. Yeah I'm sure we can definitely trust the humanitarianism and reformist ideals of a guy whose dad conquered half of loving africa and set up a prosperous hand economy to finance lavish hand palaces and fine hand-based dining a billion miles away from the dumbasses of the Majlis, and yeah I'm sure the isolationist party basically saying gently caress everything outside of Iberia will care enough to bring him to heel or set up self-governing democracies when Andalus itself is still an autocratic shithole that's about to get hosed in the tug-of-war between squabbling liberals and socialists bickering over the "gently caress you got mine" phase we're gonna slide into. You're acting like another term of imperialists and colonialism is going to gently caress everything forever for a decent decolonisation when it's literally the opposite. Oppress everyone ourselves? They're already gonna get oppressed by the loving evil empire we just forced to stop slavery (but wait! reactionary revolt nice lol sounds loving great!) and our loving puppet hitler, why the hell does that matter when bringing it under direct control of our government would make it that much easier for socialists to actually implement decent reforms in the African territories and have direct control over the decolonisation? Seriously PLEASE vote imperialist this is literally the turning point on what's gonna happen in and to Africa, if we can just gently caress Morocco and kick them out the following three terms of socialist decolonisation will go perfectly. The only other chance we might get to take an active hand in unfucking all of the places that got colonised is with communism and holy poo poo that's not looking likely right now. Hiveminded fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Aug 24, 2018 |
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Aug 24, 2018 04:40
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I don't care if it happens in a controlled manner, through official agreements. I care if he tries to pull that poo poo in the middle of a crisis, using soldiers that are under our payroll.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:40
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