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e: wrong thread lol uhh let 100 flowers bloom!!!
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Aug 23, 2018 22:56
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Slanderer posted:literally every part of this is still insanely contentious and will get a one or more groups of leftists extremely upset yeah there are a lot of very serious issues with anti-imperialism on the left and it’s all pretty vicious. obviously i think im right though. the real ghouls all seem to be on the pro-moderate rebels side of things which just happens to be on the side of the absolute worst nations on earth including us
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Aug 23, 2018 22:59
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It's only contentious because some people just read anything the CIA drops on their desk.
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Aug 23, 2018 22:59
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Slanderer posted:literally every part of this is still insanely contentious and will get a one or more groups of leftists extremely upset Who the gently caress cares about making people upset?
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Aug 23, 2018 22:59
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Impermanent posted:It's only contentious because some people just read anything the CIA drops on their desk. its contentious because on some level they know they are in too deep on taking the pro-imperialist position and nothing makes someone more upset than getting called out on something they’re insecure about. its 2018 and i can see being swept up in some bad ideas early on in the syrian conflict but with everything that’s come out the weird iso / jacobin line looks Very Bad
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Aug 23, 2018 23:05
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assad is bad but arming and supporting the rebels, especially post-Russian intervention, has just prolonged the carnage
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Aug 23, 2018 23:07
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Impermanent posted:It's only contentious because some people just read anything the CIA drops on their desk. actually i havent read my copy of jacobin yet Yandat posted:yeah there are a lot of very serious issues with anti-imperialism on the left and it’s all pretty vicious. obviously i think im right though. the real ghouls all seem to be on the pro-moderate rebels side of things which just happens to be on the side of the absolute worst nations on earth including us everyone thinks they're right, which is why you have people tripping over each other to present conclusive proof of chemical weapons attacks and also conclusive proof that this is more NATO propaganda. supporting the rebranded al qaeda rebels is support american imperialism, and supporting assad is supporting russian imperialism. supporting no one is the right choice. sometimes the bravest thing you can do is be a coward....
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Aug 23, 2018 23:10
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Support the people of Syria against all the people would kill and exploit them  "But doesn't that mean-" *puts finger to your lips* Hush....
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Aug 23, 2018 23:13
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slowly driving myself further into the depths of madness trying to figure out which people of Syria i should support and love and protect from the other peoples of Syria
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Aug 23, 2018 23:15
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i support whatever nasrallah supports
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Aug 23, 2018 23:16
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Yandat posted:i support whatever nasrallah supports in Russian Nassrallsh means “She spray shitted on”
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Aug 23, 2018 23:31
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where’s that video of bashar al assad driving around
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Aug 23, 2018 23:41
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Just once I'd like to see a sci fi movie where the aliens really do act in our best interests, and the real antagonists are reactionary elements who can't accept positive change. Arrival was close, but it presupposes an ignorant reaction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxI7B758XBQ
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Aug 24, 2018 00:17
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Just once I'd like to see a sci fi movie where the aliens really do act in our best interests, and the real antagonists are reactionary elements who can't accept positive change. Arrival was close, but it presupposes an ignorant reaction. I don't want Hollywood to ruin Childhood's End
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Aug 24, 2018 00:31
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Plutonis posted:I don't want Hollywood to ruin Childhood's End Too late
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Aug 24, 2018 00:39
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GalacticAcid posted:where’s that video of bashar al assad driving around https://twitter.com/HenryKrinkIe/status/975557505051971584
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Aug 24, 2018 00:56
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hell yea, lmfao
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Aug 24, 2018 01:09
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https://twitter.com/jonahwhatever/status/1032657174332403712
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Aug 24, 2018 02:34
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Bringing The Assad Must Go Curse upon yourself has never been popular.
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Aug 24, 2018 03:36
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https://twitter.com/BlackSocialists/status/1032812216721043458 https://twitter.com/MattBruenig/status/1032813267255746560 https://twitter.com/MattBruenig/status/1032817247511826432
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Aug 24, 2018 03:39
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public wealth is not the same thing as public ownership of the means of production, especially if the mechanism for that ownership is capitalist parties!!!!! i need to just block him already. he's one of the few people who actually makes me mad.
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Aug 24, 2018 03:43
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The fundamental issue is that state ownership of public resources doesn't overcome the commodity form in itself. Norway isn't socialist because it's a bourgeois state primarily concerned with producing commodities for the global capitalist economy. At best you could say it's state capitalist. I get why Matt wants to push for a nationalizing of finance capital which gives dividends to the public, but that's skirting the issue of the systemic exploitation which facilitates that kind of capital accumulation in the first place. It's literal social imperialism. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Aug 24, 2018 |
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Aug 24, 2018 03:55
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what dividends, though? there's nothing unique about the norwegian state that distinguishes it from other social democracies, other than the sovereign wealth fund. that's it. the socialization of profit doesn't happen at a firm level, and it doesn't happen at a state level to any significant degree more than, say, france, italy or denmark.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:02
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like the soviet union, china, dprk, cuba — all these places had and have mechanisms in place to socialize profit and keep directors accountable to their workers, both top-down in the form of state and party dictats and bottom-up in the form of trade unions and worker congresses/committees. there's nothing similar in norway. the closest you get is co-determination in germany.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:04
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I really don't get why Bruenig wants to keep using """Scandinavia""" as a model of "socialism". It feels almost liberal in the way that they're running scared of bringing up actual socialist states out of fear that they'll be called Stalinists or whatever. But that's going to happen regardless. The BBC put the Kremlin in the background of a photo of Corbyn and photoshopped his hat to look more like an ushanka.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:11
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his research is motivated by a need to stake out a position slightly left of the mainstream to maximize popularity. he's assuming a lot less of his audience than actual radicals. it's not very complicated.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:22
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BULBASAUR posted:Can someone explain to a pleb why Trot is bad? Trotsky was somewhat okay. Trotskyists are bad because they're all rapists.
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Aug 24, 2018 04:52
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gradenko_2000 posted:I really don't get why Bruenig wants to keep using """Scandinavia""" as a model of "socialism". It feels almost liberal in the way that they're running scared of bringing up actual socialist states out of fear that they'll be called Stalinists or whatever. He's a Fox news personality
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Aug 24, 2018 04:54
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gradenko_2000 posted:I really don't get why Bruenig wants to keep using """Scandinavia""" as a model of "socialism". It feels almost liberal in the way that they're running scared of bringing up actual socialist states out of fear that they'll be called Stalinists or whatever. he's a lib
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Aug 24, 2018 04:57
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He's gonna debate been shapiro for likes and retweets
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Aug 24, 2018 04:59
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gently caress i keep posting in the wrong thread today
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Aug 24, 2018 05:11
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R. Guyovich posted:what dividends, though? there's nothing unique about the norwegian state that distinguishes it from other social democracies, other than the sovereign wealth fund. that's it. the socialization of profit doesn't happen at a firm level, and it doesn't happen at a state level to any significant degree more than, say, france, italy or denmark. If a sovereign wealth fund is a socialist institution then one wonders why he doesn't bring up Saudi Arabia or the UAE.
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Aug 24, 2018 05:29
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If a sovereign wealth fund is a socialist institution then one wonders why he doesn't bring up Saudi Arabia or the UAE. that's a good point, which means he'll ignore it when it's brought up.
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Aug 24, 2018 06:01
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also nordic style "socialism" still involves lots of international fuckery, whether it be throwing in military support for w/e brown country America is bombing at the moment, or leveraging their production/wealth disparity in developing nations to exploit their labor force via regulatory capture and other forms of imperialism
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Aug 24, 2018 06:30
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If a sovereign wealth fund is a socialist institution then one wonders why he doesn't bring up Saudi Arabia or the UAE. drat it's almost like the proceeds in those nations arent distributed via socialized programs but instead are chiefly funneled towards a small class of god-kings Slanderer fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Aug 24, 2018 |
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Aug 24, 2018 07:06
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gradenko_2000 posted:
really hosed up that he doesn't use China as a model of successful socialism in our age, i agree
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Aug 24, 2018 07:08
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hell yeah getfiscal in harper's glow up, sweet donald
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Aug 24, 2018 08:33
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TenementFunster posted:hell yeah getfiscal in harper's
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Aug 24, 2018 08:46
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hey, uh I haven't looked around CSPAM in like over a year to see this thread but wasn't this the PSL thread once or something? whatever happened to that? also hello I am with the ISO... kind of. don't really live in the states anymore. recently moved to Germany and more just doing academic union organizing stuff while getting more of a feel for the local landscape. I also organize with Science for the People which just had a re-foundation meeting just last February or so and is in the process of coming together into a coherent organization after being dormant for decades
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Aug 24, 2018 08:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Just once I'd like to see a sci fi movie where the aliens really do act in our best interests, and the real antagonists are reactionary elements who can't accept positive change. Arrival was close, but it presupposes an ignorant reaction. The day the earth stood still? 🤔
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Aug 24, 2018 09:48
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