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Top City Homo posted:Meidner plan showed that bourgies will never allow themselves to be electorally euthanized as a system even if their stocks are offered to be purchased by the workers strongest argument for 
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Aug 25, 2018 19:51
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I'll be in charge of bludgeoning the people that use glasses to death once the Neo Khmer Rouge rises
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Aug 25, 2018 19:54
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Why are you asking a rhetorical question we've already answered? because some of those answers are wrong and i dunno which of the wrong ones you believe in. wealth, investments and capital do not cease to exist in a socialist economy, nor does the need for someone who knows what the gently caress they’re doing to decide whether the cool weed rocket guy needs another ten million in investment to make his cars not explode, or a trip to the gulag that’s something that I’ve never understood in leninism though, like how exactly do you imagine that investment of capital and decisions regarding it are made in a socialist society exactly? if sovereign wealth funds are always bad and exploitativewho’re you going invest with the power to figure out whether some business is going to work or not? or is the state going to have a role at all in this?
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Aug 25, 2018 19:54
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Kurnugia posted:
Check this out... they could use democracy
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Aug 25, 2018 19:56
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democracy is bad and dumb
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Aug 25, 2018 20:02
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GalacticAcid posted:This is extremely good, on Sergei Eisenstein & revolutionary cinema / theater. Uuuurgh want to read but don't want to sign up with a log in.
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Aug 25, 2018 20:06
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Kurnugia posted:democracy is bad and dumb
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Aug 25, 2018 20:16
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i was joking and also democracy is a lot of things, some of them bad and a lot of bad things have also been done in the name of democracy so
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Aug 25, 2018 20:27
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Kurnugia posted:direct democracy is bad and dumb fixed
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Aug 25, 2018 20:28
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Kurnugia posted:because some of those answers are wrong and i dunno which of the wrong ones you believe in. wealth, investments and capital do not cease to exist in a socialist economy, nor does the need for someone who knows what the gently caress they’re doing to decide whether the cool weed rocket guy needs another ten million in investment to make his cars not explode, or a trip to the gulag I think you're confused about what exactly sovereign wealth funds do. SWFs constantly seek to maximize profits because they're financial instruments that invest across the global market. They're tied directly to the continued regular functioning of global finance capitalism. They can't operate outside of the profit motive. That doesn't mean a socialist state can't have something like an SWF, as is necessitated by conditions of global bourgeois hegemony, it just means that it's impossible for an SWF itself to be a socialist institution.
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Aug 25, 2018 20:28
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CountFosco posted:Uuuurgh want to read but don't want to sign up with a log in. Think you can put in a dummy email
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Aug 25, 2018 20:37
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i agree with all of that, my point however was that SWFs can be run by socialists and along socialist principles, so long as they’re also owned by a socialist entity. which is the crux of the issue. being a socialist entity, a state, syndicate, podcasting commune, doesn’t mean it doesn’t own things in turn. power is capital and guns
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Aug 25, 2018 20:51
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Kurnugia posted:i agree with all of that, my point however was that SWFs can be run by socialists and along socialist principles, so long as they’re also owned by a socialist entity. which is the crux of the issue. being a socialist entity, a state, syndicate, podcasting commune, doesn’t mean it doesn’t own things in turn. power is capital and guns SWFs can't be run along socialist principles. You can use them to advance a socialist agenda by developing the productive forces towards realizing communism, but they're just never gonna be socialist institutions. Socialized finance in one country operates according to social imperialism. In a global state of socialism there wouldn't be any need for something like an SWF, because the world economy has been radically transformed to a completely different mode.
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Aug 25, 2018 20:58
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you can use capital to fund worker’s syndicates in non-socialist states. also im sure it’s gonna be great when the whole world is fully socialist utopia but in the meantime before we get there we gotta figure these intervening steps out
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Aug 25, 2018 21:01
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Kurnugia posted:you can use capital to fund worker’s syndicates in non-socialist states. also im sure it’s gonna be great when the whole world is fully socialist utopia but in the meantime before we get there we gotta figure these intervening steps out *chuckles global warmingly* but f'real tho, the first thing to figure out is that if every single person on earth with more than a million dollar networth were to suddenly die of some god-sent disease, we wouldn't forget how to reproduce the means of our daily needs and lives, there just wouldn't be oligarchs to count the beans and put the beanless in prison anymore.
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Aug 25, 2018 21:07
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Kurnugia posted:you can use capital to fund worker’s syndicates in non-socialist states. also im sure it’s gonna be great when the whole world is fully socialist utopia but in the meantime before we get there we gotta figure these intervening steps out Nobody is disagreeing with you that something like an SWF could be exploited to further a socialist agenda. The issue is the very nature of an SWF itself as an instrument of capitalism.
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Aug 25, 2018 21:10
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fair enough
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Aug 25, 2018 21:11
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Top City Homo posted:Meidner plan showed that bourgies will never allow themselves to be electorally euthanized as a system even if their stocks are offered to be purchased by the workers the same can be said of the USSR so I guess that route is a failure too! imo, some countries will be able to achieve socialism through something like the Meidner plan, and other will achieve them through revolution, and others will achieve it through a mix. it depends on the material conditions of the country where it happens. Pener Kropoopkin posted:Nobody is disagreeing with you that something like an SWF could be exploited to further a socialist agenda. The issue is the very nature of an SWF itself as an instrument of capitalism. i'd say it's an instrument of the state, and is literally capital. i'm not sure if this is a distinction without a difference. depends on the state i guess.
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Aug 25, 2018 21:33
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How could the material conditions be any better than in a first world country?
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Aug 25, 2018 21:35
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happy Saturday fellow cummies, how hard is your struggle today
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Aug 25, 2018 22:00
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BULBASAUR posted:happy Saturday fellow cummies, how hard is your struggle today https://twitter.com/getfiscal/status/1032942006480318464
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Aug 25, 2018 22:02
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:How could the material conditions be any better than in a first world country? I guess this is a bit too curt. It's not just about the material conditions regarding whether or not you can achieve socialism. There's been plenty of socialist states in dire material conditions - the problem is the socio-political conditions. If the Meidner Plan failed to realize socialism it's not because Sweden lacked the material conditions to do so, it was the same kind of reactionary politics which defeated communists and socialists all across the world.
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Aug 25, 2018 22:25
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:After the revolution, I'm going to be a twitch streamer anti natalism police job is already taken
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Aug 25, 2018 23:28
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ShriekingMarxist posted:They might have the infrastructure and distribution, but they don't have the material and production to become "socialist". Socialism isn't about keeping the current model of production/trade and just slicing all the profits off the top and ensuring they're distributed to everyone in that country equally, it requires a fundamental change in the system of production and people's relationship to it, and a massive push for domestic industries to replace exploitative imports and imperialist trade policies. There's no such thing as socialism in one country, or socialism wherein a strong welfare state uses the current instruments of capitalism to benefit all of its citizens, they're just more progressive liberal democracies. socialization of profit is fine in the short-term. actually existing socialist countries do and did that, and it was a positive development.
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Aug 25, 2018 23:48
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Karl Barks posted:the same can be said of the USSR so I guess that route is a failure too! imo, some countries will be able to achieve socialism through something like the Meidner plan, and other will achieve them through revolution, and others will achieve it through a mix. it depends on the material conditions of the country where it happens. The USSR achieved socialism its failures were sown with the abandonment of the dictatorship of the proletariat during the Khrushchev years and are a different set of issues the Meidner plan on the other hand couldn't even democratically establish socialism despite being by far the best program on offer in a country where 95% of the population was unionized in fact capital used their soc dem lapdogs to destroy the plan and then immediately pushed for liberalization and globalization to free themselves of the national proles
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Aug 26, 2018 00:40
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I guess this is a bit too curt. It's not just about the material conditions regarding whether or not you can achieve socialism. There's been plenty of socialist states in dire material conditions - the problem is the socio-political conditions. If the Meidner Plan failed to realize socialism it's not because Sweden lacked the material conditions to do so, it was the same kind of reactionary politics which defeated communists and socialists all across the world. I wasn't saying the material conditions can prevent a country from transitioning to socialism, only influence (but not determine) the path it takes to achieve it. you are correct that it is the socio-political conditions which determine whether the transition is successful or not, I think we are in agreement there. Top City Homo posted:The USSR achieved socialism I would agree they achieved socialism, tho I think the material conditions (using this term more generally here) for USSR proletariat and sweden's were similar. the same reactionary forces were still successful in the end, it just lasted longer. the Swedish soc dems didn't destroy the plan, they were defeated in the 1976 election which sealed it's fate with a world rapidly turning hard right. Karl Barks fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Aug 26, 2018 |
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Aug 26, 2018 02:24
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Karl Barks posted:I would agree they achieved socialism, tho I think the material conditions (using this term more generally here) for USSR proletariat and sweden's were similar. The Soviet Union came out of the civil war in terrible shape. Industrial production had come to a standstill under the weight of war communism and the mass deaths of the proletariat who fought in the war. There was a much smaller educated proletariat in the Russian Empire to start with, and the Bolsheviks immediately had to fill out their ranks with illiterate country bumpkins just so they'd have the staff to do anything. Sweden completely avoided any involvement in both world wars, was much more highly educated as a population than Russians and was more industrially developed. Unless you're talking about the 1950s when they tried the Meidner plan, but still Sweden never had to go through the deprivations and setbacks of two world wars and a civil war and accumulated wealth constantly throughout that period.
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Aug 26, 2018 03:23
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https://twitter.com/PHXRisingFC/status/1033569021088620544
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Aug 26, 2018 07:12
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The Soviet Union came out of the civil war in terrible shape. Industrial production had come to a standstill under the weight of war communism and the mass deaths of the proletariat who fought in the war. There was a much smaller educated proletariat in the Russian Empire to start with, and the Bolsheviks immediately had to fill out their ranks with illiterate country bumpkins just so they'd have the staff to do anything. Sweden completely avoided any involvement in both world wars, was much more highly educated as a population than Russians and was more industrially developed. I don't disagree, and I'm not trying to say the USSR's achievements aren't impressive. Only that in a place like Sweden, where the proletariat have access to housing, healthcare, and jobs through social democratic programs, the revolutionary fervor isn't going to be as strong as 1917 Russia. it's in places like this that something like the Meidner plan is a viable strategy to rally around. for me, the fact it failed isn't in an indictment of electoral means for change that it is for other people itt. the arc of history is long, and who's to say on the next try it won't be a success?
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Aug 26, 2018 18:43
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the arc of history might be long but i 'aint gonna live to be 300
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Aug 26, 2018 19:52
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i will
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Aug 26, 2018 21:15
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the meidner plan would fail for the exact same reasons that nordic social democracy has failed tho
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Aug 26, 2018 21:16
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Top City Homo posted:its failures were sown with the abandonment of the dictatorship of the proletariat during the Khrushchev years and are a different set of issues Actually it was abandoned by Stalin    The former pledge for soldiers of the USSR: 
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Aug 26, 2018 21:35
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the failure of the soviet union was sown by stalin and no one else. he built the soviet political system and it remained in practice completely untouched and institutionally fixed from the great Patriotic War until dissolution
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Aug 26, 2018 22:32
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https://twitter.com/Integrity_Guy/status/1033409029513601024
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Aug 27, 2018 03:54
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH9f6nqA0Gk
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Aug 27, 2018 23:18
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https://twitter.com/RichardSebola91/status/1032598268046462981 https://twitter.com/RichardSebola91/status/1032603126069645313 
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Aug 28, 2018 01:18
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My only complaint about the EFF is that when I just google their initials all the results are for the Electronic Frontier Foundation. After that white nationalist Trump tweet, I was expecting liberals to say "I respect Cyril Ramaphosa more than Trump because he's a real billionaire who didn't inherit his money from his dad!"
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Aug 28, 2018 01:49
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That would mean they'd have to know anything.+
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Aug 28, 2018 02:05
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malema has made some unfortunate comments about jews but the eff owns bones otherwise
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Aug 28, 2018 02:48
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