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Ratoslov posted:The 'Vance' (Vancian) wizards have a sheet of paper that represents the amount of spells they can have in their brain, and cards that represent spells that have to physically fit on the page. This is sort of neat, but the spells are all either one or two times the size of the smallest card and they're all the same shapes. Furthermore, you can get a power that lets you make the big cards the same size as the little cards, which they suggest on the forums representing by physically folding the cards in half. (My GM said to just overlap them because that's stupid.) Why is this not a spell-point system? You're getting none of the cool stuff from the physical card format and all of the drawbacks. Pointing out that there's a possibility for an interesting game mechanic, and then saying "Hey, we're going do this interesting game mechanic!" and then implementing it in the most uninspiring and misguided way possible is Monte Cook as hell. 
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Aug 25, 2018 21:29
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Gundam: Iron Blooded Orphans
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Aug 25, 2018 21:30
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That's actually really disappointing because that is such a cool idea...especially if you create design limitations where spells almost always take up the same area, but high level spells have weird, janky shapes that make it hard to crowbar multiple ones into the same brainspace without losing out on filler spells (and cantrips can always be single square spells that could fit anywhere on the grid). Something like the system for ZHP: Unlosing Ranger vs Dark Death Evilman.  EDIT: so you could have a level...lets say 3 spell be just a block: code:oriongates fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Aug 25, 2018 |
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Aug 25, 2018 22:03
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Ratoslov posted:So a buddy of mine bought Invisible Sun and has decided to run it, and despite my reservations with it I'm giving it a fair shot. Because the 'visae packages' (character sheets) hadn't come in yet, we played a short, disjointed adventure using pre-made characters that was clearly not made for characters as good at wizarding as our wizards. The adventure made it seem like every difficulty we ran up against was going to take a lot of time to fix, but we basically spent the adventure taking turns cleaning up problems with a single power or whatnot. This is 100% the most Monte Cook thing in the history of Monte Cook. DalaranJ posted:Pointing out that there's a possibility for an interesting game mechanic, and then saying "Hey, we're going do this interesting game mechanic!" and then implementing it in the most uninspiring and misguided way possible is Monte Cook as hell. Or this, it's hard to choose.
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Aug 25, 2018 22:23
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The three things that the name Monte Cook makes me think of, thanks to TG: 1: "Beaners" 2: Coming up with exciting new mechanics and then blowing the implementation 3: Smithers from The Simpsons singing "I work for Monte Cook, da dah da dah Monte Cook..."
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Aug 26, 2018 00:03
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Ratoslov posted:The 'Vance' (Vancian) wizards have a sheet of paper that represents the amount of spells they can have in their brain, and cards that represent spells that have to physically fit on the page. This is sort of neat, but the spells are all either one or two times the size of the smallest card and they're all the same shapes. Furthermore, you can get a power that lets you make the big cards the same size as the little cards, which they suggest on the forums representing by physically folding the cards in half. (My GM said to just overlap them because that's stupid.) Why is this not a spell-point system? You're getting none of the cool stuff from the physical card format and all of the drawbacks. I suspect trying to play Tetris with non-rectangular spell cards on a non-rectangular grid would get arduous pretty fast, though. It should probably just be spell points, or be spell cards in the Vance's "hand".
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Aug 26, 2018 00:37
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LatwPIAT posted:I suspect trying to play Tetris with non-rectangular spell cards on a non-rectangular grid would get arduous pretty fast, though. It should probably just be spell points, or be spell cards in the Vance's "hand". And really powerful spells needing to be cast like Exodia.
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Aug 26, 2018 00:53
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I do like the suggestion of taking your game components which you've paid hundreds of dollars for and just folding them in half to make them fit properly on the character sheet, though.
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Aug 26, 2018 01:26
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Back on rebellion chat, Spellbound Kingdom seemed pretty easily skinnable that way with the shadow stuff.
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Aug 26, 2018 01:44
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Payndz posted:The three things that the name Monte Cook makes me think of, thanks to TG: 0: the moon
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Aug 26, 2018 02:01
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The penny just dropped for me on Spire. It defines characters by what they can withstand (stress tracks), not what they can do (ability scores). That's brilliantly contrarian and I wish it hadn't taken me so long to get it.
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Aug 26, 2018 02:51
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mllaneza posted:The penny just dropped for me on Spire. It defines characters by what they can withstand (stress tracks), not what they can do (ability scores). That's brilliantly contrarian and I wish it hadn't taken me so long to get it. Well poo poo now I have to read it again.
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Aug 26, 2018 03:39
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Lemon-Lime posted:Gundam VS is also good. I'm actually going to respond to this again. Just to ask if Zeon ever did some hardcore Nazi poo poo? Like, did they ever do camps or any of that poo poo? Because I was watching MS-IGLOO and there's a moment where I realized I think they forgot Zeon was supposed to be Nazis. Also, they have this character that super Nazi but they don't portray him as a bad guy and actually portray him in a positive light and its really uncomfortable. I don't know if Operation British counts.
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Aug 26, 2018 03:42
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Covok posted:I'm actually going to respond to this again. Just to ask if Zeon ever did some hardcore Nazi poo poo? Like, did they ever do camps or any of that poo poo? Because I was watching MS-IGLOO and there's a moment where I realized I think they forgot Zeon was supposed to be Nazis. Also, they have this character that super Nazi but they don't portray him as a bad guy and actually portray him in a positive light and its really uncomfortable. They used chemical weapons to massacre civilians and Gihren Zabi was like "hmm that ancient warlord actually looks cool" when his dad compared him to Hitler
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Aug 26, 2018 03:44
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Plutonis posted:They used chemical weapons to massacre civilians and Gihren Zabi was like "hmm that ancient warlord actually looks cool" when his dad compared him to Hitler Oh yeah, I forgot they gassed that entire colony during operation British. Also, the scene where Deigwen who literally calls his son Hitler.
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Aug 26, 2018 03:45
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depictions of zeon swing wildly depending on the series but yeah tomino's original deception of them in the original series wasn't exactly subtle with comparing them to the axis
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Aug 26, 2018 03:47
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Brother Entropy posted:depictions of zeon swing wildly depending on the series but yeah tomino's original deception of them in the original series wasn't exactly subtle with comparing them to the axis They even named one of their asteroid bases for 'em!
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Aug 26, 2018 03:55
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MS-IGLOO is straight up Zeon apologia
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Aug 26, 2018 04:04
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Ratoslov posted:So a buddy of mine bought Invisible Sun and has decided to run it, and despite my reservations with it I'm giving it a fair shot. Because the 'visae packages' (character sheets) hadn't come in yet, we played a short, disjointed adventure using pre-made characters that was clearly not made for characters as good at wizarding as our wizards. The adventure made it seem like every difficulty we ran up against was going to take a lot of time to fix, but we basically spent the adventure taking turns cleaning up problems with a single power or whatnot. We largely had fun, despite most of the table being taken up by a giant empty board and a plastic hand. Was the giant empty board the Path of Suns? That really seems like it's more table space than it's worth. I'd be curious about any thoughts on how the various splats played. I'm really curious which of the options are the traps (it's an MCG joint, there are traps); my gut read was that the Goetic and Maker seem potentially trap-y, since their order powers function a lot on GM fiat/questing, and the Apostate's mix-and-match approach seems prone to trap options, but it sounds like the Vance also plays a little lame? If Invisible Sun ends up achieving some kind of MCG apotheosis of "all options are traps," well, maybe that's what it deserves.
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Aug 26, 2018 04:06
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Xarbala posted:MS-IGLOO is straight up Zeon apologia It gets dangerously close to Nazi apologia due to the character uniform designs. It's also pretty universally accepted as being bad. The Origin, manga and movies, lean pretty heavily on Zeon being terrible, corrupt fascists and drive home even more that Char is a sociopath. The Earth Federation is also relatively bad but Zeon is by far the worst.
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Aug 26, 2018 05:38
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Xarbala posted:MS-IGLOO is straight up Zeon apologia I don't really agree about MS-IGLOO, it's about an individual weapons testing unit just scrambling to find something they can toss at the Federation. It's not treated sympathetically, even if individual pilots are sympathetic, and given most of them die piloting defective pieces of poo poo it doesn't really paint Zeon in a very positive light. Plus season two of MS-IGLOO looked at things from the Federation side of things, and how they were stuck fighting mobile suits with conventional infantry weapons and tanks for more than half the war. MSG Thunderbolt was probably worse for Zeon apologia, given that the Zeon character is just a crippled veteran trying to do his job while his Federation counterpart is an absolutely murderous sociopath. And also the Federation just puts together a bunch of child soldiers apparently conscripted en masse, and they all die horribly by mid-series. Also funnily enough MS-Zeta decided to give the Federation the Nazi Hat, with the straight up SS inspired Titans, who were even less sympathetic than literally Neo-Zeon. With AEUG stuck in the middle. Also also: "The Plot to Assassinate Gihren" manga owns and is literally Operation Valkyrie with giant robots. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Aug 26, 2018 |
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Aug 26, 2018 06:01
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fool_of_sound posted:The book gives pretty extensive advice about what you should and should not do while building your character. I'm really not sure what you're talking about. Lemon-Lime posted:I don't agree with this at all. It does have some things it expects you to do to build a character that works well, but it also spends a lot of time telling you that you should do those things. Aight, so I'm going to focus on mech building, since I think the character side is more tragically boring than anything. The system offers a lot of options, many of which look good on first glance. You have the option to focus on different categories of weapons, lean more towards support and battlefield control, or take a more specialized role. Cool. What's not cool is that most of it boils down to stacking advantages in your chosen field (if weapon-focused), or dropping a ton of points into making support builds work at all. Most of my play has been on the PL4 side of the spectrum, so I've crunched up a variety of builds with quite a bit of budget to work with and had a wildly different amount of success with them. The simple fact of the matter is that support, really, doesn't feel great. You dedicate a ton of build points and energy each turn for the ability to use your 5pt support options more than once. There are some clutch support techniques, to be sure, but most of the time you're better off just dealing damage and pushing enemies towards their next maim... since that also cripples them. And with the weapons available? That's pretty easy. Things like the Resonance Cannon, that auto-destroys the enemy's current layer of threshold after dealing damage, or the Boosted Lance, that deal flat bonus damage, are really good. Or, perhaps, you invest in a technique build. Those are really strong. I'd venture that a flying mech using Ground Zero with the technicians is one of the strongest builds at the top end of things. The Beast is also a really strong build in and of itself... and it's essentially done at 20 build points. Of course, maybe you think that playing a sniper or something is a good idea. Pity about how you need EWAC, Commander Type, and Assisted Targeting to not gently caress yourself on the action economy. All that to say that even in terms of weapons, there are a few that really stand out and more than a few that are somewhere between serviceable and not worth the points. So, in my own experiences playing the game, I've run into some traps that the game did not, in fact, warn me about. Traps that seem like perfectly reasonable mech archetypes. Traps that, really, aren't breaking any of the advice on when it's more effective to buy up stats or upgrades.
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Aug 26, 2018 06:20
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Tricky posted:Aight, so I'm going to focus on mech building, since I think the character side is more tragically boring than anything. The system offers a lot of options, many of which look good on first glance. You have the option to focus on different categories of weapons, lean more towards support and battlefield control, or take a more specialized role. Cool. What's not cool is that most of it boils down to stacking advantages in your chosen field (if weapon-focused), or dropping a ton of points into making support builds work at all. Most of my play has been on the PL4 side of the spectrum, so I've crunched up a variety of builds with quite a bit of budget to work with and had a wildly different amount of success with them. Full Support is the literal only thing you've actually said that could be construed as a trap option, and I suspect that because you weren't using the expansion. With BCZ you open up the ability to spawn warp gates, turn tension into energy, get a free actionless random support power every turn. Pick up Shielding Aura, Dispersion Aura, maybe even Guardian of Steel to protect the whole party! Maybe go tanky and take Extreme Body and Pulling Field so you can drop damage fields that don't key off Might at all while protecting the party! I strongly suspect that you are overvaluing being able to recharge Support upgrades. Battles aren't supposed to last all that long. Not to mention it's trivial just to make a hybrid support/combat mech. Your sniper for example revolves entirely around a single sniper weapon: the Sniper Rifle. There are half a dozen valid sniper weapons with theri own advantages (Rail Bazooka for AoE, Assault Rifle for targeted maiming, several Energy Weapons that can generate their own Advantage on the fly) that work extremely effectively when you don't need to massively stack up Advantage, but the Sniper Rifle still has a purpose even when you do. The game tells you the strengths and disadvantages of the Sniper Rifle up front; it should be obvious that you want another weapon for when it's impractical. As for the rest I'm not even sure where you're coming from calling The Beast a 'build'. It's an aspect of a build. That's why it's only 20 points. You can take Versatile Model and Skirmisher and make a fast, dodgy mech that survives at low HP. You can take Expansion Pack, Absolute Barrier, and a bunch of Energy to tank all sorts of poo poo. Hell just combine it with Limit Engine for the synergy! fool of sound fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Aug 26, 2018 |
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Aug 26, 2018 06:43
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Covok posted:IBO? Gundam: Iron Blooded Orphans.
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Aug 26, 2018 06:56
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Bedlamdan posted:I don't really agree about MS-IGLOO, it's about an individual weapons testing unit just scrambling to find something they can toss at the Federation. It's not treated sympathetically, even if individual pilots are sympathetic, and given most of them die piloting defective pieces of poo poo it doesn't really paint Zeon in a very positive light. Thunderbolt's sometimes iffy morality can be forgiven for how well made it is in every other regard, including the anime version's amazing OST; https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8DS_G5PRB2Vd8LtP-hzT-B2WNgLe6-JZ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3BqbLrwbX3qDSmnDsC4KmGiHG1IPRf9n basically Mobile Suit Gundam Thunderbolt: December Sky is in my opinion one of the best introductions to the franchise currently available
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Aug 26, 2018 07:30
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ConanThe3rd posted:Gundam: Iron Blooded Orphans. This show is fantastic, by the way. What starts off as pretty standard Gundam fare in the first couple episodes quickly becomes something more thoughtful and nuanced, and has interesting things to say about non-traditional relationships and family structures. If you have even the slightest tolerance for mecha, check it out.
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Aug 26, 2018 08:02
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IIRC Zeon is often shown as a mix of fascist/reactionary things culture-wise but actually often resembles the Nazis most in their hardware and military tactics; different arms companies competing to make the next generation wunderwaften at the expense of making reliable mass-produced equipment, overengineered and expensive one-off prototypes that only ace pilots can really manage, and sometimes having their soldiers completely hosed up on drugs.
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Aug 26, 2018 08:06
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Covok posted:To be fair, I do view the Aesir family as a group that believes themselves to be gods in a cult-like government. Covok posted:I'm actually going to respond to this again. Just to ask if Zeon ever did some hardcore Nazi poo poo? Like, did they ever do camps or any of that poo poo? Because I was watching MS-IGLOO and there's a moment where I realized I think they forgot Zeon was supposed to be Nazis. Also, they have this character that super Nazi but they don't portray him as a bad guy and actually portray him in a positive light and its really uncomfortable. Zeon is an autocratic cult of personality led by a genocidal mass-murderer who wants to conquer the Solar system and is obsessed with Nazi aesthetics. The thing is, you're not playing UC Gundam, you're playing your own setting in which you've chosen to make the oppressed Martians into the same thing. Just because your totally-original-do-not-steal mecha setting borrows from UC Gundam doesn't mean you need to reproduce it 1:1 by having the oppressed colonists turn into Nazis and their colonial masters be the good guys. You can have the Martians rising up in an anarcho-syndicalist revolution against Earth's corporate control (as in IBO), or the Earth being the fascist government (as in Zeta), or the Aesir family ruling entirely through coercion, murder and fear and Earth and the Martian resistance working hand in hand to depose them, or whatever else you choose.
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Aug 26, 2018 10:48
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fool_of_sound posted:Full Support is the literal only thing you've actually said that could be construed as a trap option, and I suspect that because you weren't using the expansion. With BCZ you open up the ability to spawn warp gates, turn tension into energy, get a free actionless random support power every turn. Pick up Shielding Aura, Dispersion Aura, maybe even Guardian of Steel to protect the whole party! Maybe go tanky and take Extreme Body and Pulling Field so you can drop damage fields that don't key off Might at all while protecting the party! I strongly suspect that you are overvaluing being able to recharge Support upgrades. Battles aren't supposed to last all that long. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and argue experiences with you if you're just going to nope out of them and focus on wording minutia. I am relating that, in play, some of these options are wildly more effective than others. Our typical combat tends to go up to Tension 5 or 6, so being able to use those support options multiple times is pretty important, unless you want to spend all those points going wide instead and risking that you won't have a helpful support action. As for the variety of weapons: again, this is my point. If you think "oh, hey, I want to use a sniper rifle" you end up getting hosed over by unspoken prerequisites. There are a lot of good weapons and, likewise, a lot of really underpowered options. They all cost 5 points. Do you see how that can lead to variance in build efficacy at the same point levels?
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Aug 26, 2018 16:41
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Antivehicular posted:Was the giant empty board the Path of Suns? That really seems like it's more table space than it's worth. Yeah, it eats up a huge amount of space in the name of flavor, but it could totally be replaced with spots for two cards and a d8. Another 'why didn't we make it an app?' moment. quote:I'd be curious about any thoughts on how the various splats played. I'm really curious which of the options are the traps (it's an MCG joint, there are traps); my gut read was that the Goetic and Maker seem potentially trap-y, since their order powers function a lot on GM fiat/questing, and the Apostate's mix-and-match approach seems prone to trap options, but it sounds like the Vance also plays a little lame? If Invisible Sun ends up achieving some kind of MCG apotheosis of "all options are traps," well, maybe that's what it deserves. My very shallow impressions of the splats from this: 1. I have no idea what's going on with Apostates, because the Apostate player was kinda feeling withdrawn that day and wasn't interested in playing much. 2. Our Goetic didn't summon anything because the mission had serious time pressure, but she got a fair bit of use out of dismissing a demon. 3. Our Maker didn't do anything at all using his Maker stuff and spent a lot of time studying the complex 'how to Make poo poo' flow chart included. It reminds me unpleasantly of Exalted 3e's crafting junk system in some ways. 4. The Vance caster used a few spells, because while it is kind of lame, you can't turn up your nose at free magic that just works. 5. Weaving is balanced by being expensive, but you can always cast exactly the right spell at the right time. As a Nobilis fan, this was the most comfortable spellcasting method for me. My big complaint about it is that the premade character sheet didn't have a quick-reference to the levels of various spell effects unlike everyone else's, but that could have been quite a long sheet. But once again, I don't have a solid grasp on this stuff.
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Aug 26, 2018 17:25
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IIRC Zeon was pretty much always the Axis in space. Though I remember some readings about the original 0079 incarnation being intended to be more of an Imperial Japan thing than strictly a Germany thing. 08th MST and 0080 were where the Nazis in Space thing became more or less 1 for 1 and maaaaybe got a little fetishistic. Unicorn also had a lot of Zeon apologia but that was more about the Earth Federation being in the wrong since its founding.
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Aug 26, 2018 17:49
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Der Waffle Mous posted:IIRC Zeon was pretty much always the Axis in space. Though I remember some readings about the original 0079 incarnation being intended to be more of an Imperial Japan thing than strictly a Germany thing. Zeon being Imperial Japan would have some serious loving implications on Z Gundam though (Bask Ohm = MacArthur).
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Aug 26, 2018 18:02
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Kai Tave posted:This is 100% the most Monte Cook thing in the history of Monte Cook. The most Monte Cook thing for me is that everything that can have a unique nonsense name does. Because Monte Cook has apparently only been able to read the 30 year catalog of White Wolf/Onyx Path books in the past five years, and the ability to apply new proper nouns to everything until every sentence is an incomprehensible mess to someone not well-versed in the game's lexicon is mindblowingly fresh to him.
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Aug 26, 2018 18:09
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Honestly, it might have been better if Zeon wasn't meant to be either Nazis or Imperial Japan. Once you tie something to a real historical group, you attach all the baggage that comes with that group. You can't ever really have Xeon be good because they're based on Nazis, for example, even though you could easily switch the narrative in any other circumstance because Zeon was an oppressed colony. You could do an interesting story there. But because they're meant to be Nazis or imperial Japan, you can't because then you're endorsing those horrible real life groups.
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Aug 26, 2018 18:29
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Tricky posted:I mean, I'm not going to sit here and argue experiences with you if you're just going to nope out of them and focus on wording minutia. I am relating that, in play, some of these options are wildly more effective than others. Our typical combat tends to go up to Tension 5 or 6, so being able to use those support options multiple times is pretty important, unless you want to spend all those points going wide instead and risking that you won't have a helpful support action. As for the variety of weapons: again, this is my point. If you think "oh, hey, I want to use a sniper rifle" you end up getting hosed over by unspoken prerequisites. There are a lot of good weapons and, likewise, a lot of really underpowered options. They all cost 5 points. Do you see how that can lead to variance in build efficacy at the same point levels? Hi, playtester of BCG and balance helper here, name the options and I'll point out how they are really strong please odds are good you missed something that makes them powerful because support is so good it actually got nerfs in the optional errata because it was OP.
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Aug 26, 2018 18:30
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Remember that cyberpunk discussion where people were saying hacking a car was unrealistic? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3862643&userid=20544 Features no actual car hacking but jesus, put any of these posts in the present tense and you have the start of a Johnson's infopacket
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Aug 26, 2018 18:30
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Covok posted:Honestly, it might have been better if Zeon wasn't meant to be either Nazis or Imperial Japan. Once you tie something to a real historical group, you attach all the baggage that comes with that group. You can't ever really have Xeon be good because they're based on Nazis, for example, even though you could easily switch the narrative in any other circumstance because Zeon was an oppressed colony. You could do an interesting story there. But because they're meant to be Nazis or imperial Japan, you can't because then you're endorsing those horrible real life groups. zeon was created by a japanese man who lived through ww2, the baggage is the point
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Aug 26, 2018 18:33
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Transient People posted:Hi, playtester of BCG and balance helper here, name the options and I'll point out how they are really strong please In what world is the Sniper Rifle ever worth the points?
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Aug 26, 2018 18:42
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Tricky posted:In what world is the Sniper Rifle ever worth the points? Anytime you want a weapon that will consistently do excellent damage and keep you safe while being all-purpose and versatile. Compare with the Powered Rifle and Assault Rifle (its closest competitors), the Sniper Rifle can access the same level of firepower at any level of play as the Powered Rifle except the absolute highest where you have both Sniper Model and Experimental Reactor, while also retaining the general usability and energy efficiency of the Assault Rifle. What makes it good is it only ever asks for 5 energy to become self-sufficient - that leaves you with enough energy to spend on a defensive barrier to keep you safe if your range advantage doesn't cut it and you also don't become helpless if somebody rushes you down. It has very natural, good synergy the Assisted Targeting support upgrade (which literally all ranged builds need to look at in the first place due to how Aiming gives you +4 damage), so it's a very common choice for people who want to do great damage per round without sacrificing durability.
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Aug 26, 2018 18:51
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Sure, and that sounds great. In a vacuum. On the lower end, it requires a solid 25 (30, if you include the weapon itself) points to function in addition to a solid chunk of investment into energy. So you say that Powered Rifle and Experimental Reactor and Sniper Model is a high-end build? If you're looking at this one trick in isolation, it's 35 pts (40, with weapon). You can also definitely have good results with just one or the other, given the range on boost, which puts it as more both as being more scalable and with higher upside. Even without that, Powered Rifle is inherently more energy efficient than the Sniper setup since, at most, it'll only ever require 3 in and of itself. Like you said, you can even invest in the aim setup to make it better as you have more room in your build. Experimental Reactor also opens up the flexibility to bring in the other beam weapons which, largely, are really good. So, again, why would I pick the Sniper Rifle if I can get a similar level of efficacy per point, that scales better, and not need to devote 5 energy/turn to enable the weapon's basic function? The Assault Rifle at least offers built-in Expert Support and has guaranteed maim choices, so that's certainly an interesting option in certain builds. The Sniper Rifle offers +2 damage if you jump through a bunch of prerequisites and are okay bottoming out on energy every round.
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Aug 26, 2018 19:17
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