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To clarify: I'm not rejecting Vigano's statement out of hand. I'm suspicious of it because it comes from a faction that thinks this whole scandal is about homosexuality, not clericalism (as he himself says).
Pershing fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Aug 26, 2018 |
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Aug 26, 2018 16:04
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Pellisworth posted:I cannot even deal with the level of aggressive American Evangelicalism at my cousin's wedding right now. One of the proudest moments of my life is when this happened at my cousin's wedding and my long-suffering recently divorced mom (who met dad at a Baptist college in the 80s) got up and yelled at her. "Don't listen to that Randy Savage lookin' goober, you know what happened to me when I believed that crap" shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Aug 26, 2018 |
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Aug 26, 2018 16:37
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That's beautiful.
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Aug 26, 2018 17:04
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I am hoping that Viganò's document is a vicious slander because I genuinely don't know what I would do if it turned out that Pope Francis and half the Vatican had worked to restore a pedophilic cardinal despite knowing the crimes he had committed.
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Aug 26, 2018 17:05
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Crossing my fingers for an African pope to simultaneously own the libs and the racists.
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Aug 26, 2018 17:17
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QuoProQuid posted:I am hoping that Viganò's document is a vicious slander because I genuinely don't know what I would do if it turned out that Pope Francis and half the Vatican had worked to restore a pedophilic cardinal despite knowing the crimes he had committed. Would it be different if Pope Francis had merely believed him that he'd just shared a bed, to sleep, with some seminarians, and that the rest was slander? Because the problem we have is that every accusation has to be treated as if it were credible, and every credible accusation has to be treated as if it were proven, lest we look like we're "sheltering" somebody from consequences, right? It's hard to accept that a person you know well has done a bad thing, and it's harder when there seem to be so many allegations that surely some of them must be false... and none of that would excuse or exonerate Pope Francis, should any of that document be accurate, but it would make it less horrifying. The problem I'm having in hoping that the document is all about settling scores is that, while it's not at all unlikely that some of the mentioned people are mentioned to smear their names, the only reason it would work is if some of the document was accurate, especially the central statement that Pope Francis knew that McCarrick shouldn't be trusted and didn't heed that knowledge. And if that part's accurate, it doesn't really matter how many others, uh, colluded, does it? And then, if it's not, we're back to the every-accusation-must-be-treated-as-credible problem: nobody's going to be satisfied no matter how this gets resolved. (also, it's not spoken, so you're hoping it'd be a vicious libel  )
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Aug 26, 2018 17:52
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This sounds awful but I’m not really surprised. I would hold John Paul II and Benedict XVI accountable for the same thing though. There’s no way Pope Francis is the first complicit in this. Please make the harrowing of hell buddy cop movie. Dismas! You son of man! *high five*
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Aug 26, 2018 18:38
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it’s a ratfucking but the reason it’s effective is when you hear “the pope knowingly shielded a pedophile from consequences” your natural response is “yeah probably,” and then you think about it and you still say “yeah probably” the piss tape of the holy see, though piss tape wasn’t ratfucking it was opposition research
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Aug 26, 2018 18:44
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Senju Kannon posted:it’s a ratfucking but the reason it’s effective is when you hear “the pope knowingly shielded a pedophile from consequences” your natural response is “yeah probably,” and then you think about it and you still say “yeah probably” My first reaction was "wait, what?!" and then I went "well, Simcha Fisher's linking to this, so it's not just some random crazy," and then I went "well, it's plausible that Pope Francis might be susceptible to "I've been misunderstood!" and it's plausible that Pope Benedict might have delegated too much and everybody knows Pope John Paul II was inclined to think every such allegation was slanderous... oh. oh no," basically.
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Aug 26, 2018 19:11
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About viganoWikipedia posted:On 24 September 2015 during his visit to the United States, Pope Francis met Kim Davis, the Kentuckyclerk who refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. On 2 October, Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, said that the office of Viganò had extended the invitation to Davis. Chief Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi depicted the meeting as one among many brief introductions rather than an audience.[17][18]
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Aug 27, 2018 00:31
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zonohedron posted:And then, if it's not, we're back to the every-accusation-must-be-treated-as-credible problem: nobody's going to be satisfied no matter how this gets resolved. people are going to read into this however they want depending on how they currently feel about pope francis the reactionaries finally got him. oh well. going to enjoy pope pius xiii The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 01:03
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I’m not saying Francis is innocent, but I think the man he fired for inviting Kim Davis to meet with the pope should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Aug 27, 2018 01:54
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zonohedron posted:the problem we have is that every accusation has to be treated as if it were credible, and every credible accusation has to be treated as if it were proven, lest we look like we're "sheltering" somebody from consequences, right? i don't know if you're being serious or if you're saying this to try and construct some rhetorical device that I'm not picking up on, but please do not talk like this. either way it is incredibly disrespectful to people who have suffered abuse, as well as to the many people who work tirelessly and without recognition to protect people from abuse and those who spend tons of their life's energy conducting fair and unbiased investigation into the worst situations you can imagine i have worked for years in situations where certain clients of mine were known to have a history of making claims that they had been abused, but then these claims had never been able to be verified by police, human services investigators, etc. still we investigated each and every claim this person made, because it's the right thing to do (also where i live it's the law). we don't do it out of some sarcastic or cynical reasoning which I sort of take to be why you said what you said here the way that you said it, we do it because we believy people deserve to live a life where they aren't hurt by others
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Aug 27, 2018 02:05
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is this really anything other than an attack from some guy who hates francis? https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/former-ambassador-vigano-accuses-vatican-covering-mccarrick-scandal-years quote:Although the Vatican press office said it would have "no immediate comment" on the letter, released by National Catholic Register and LifeSiteNews early Aug. 26, at least several of its claims appear contradicted by the historical record.
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Aug 27, 2018 02:14
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Lutha Mahtin posted:is this really anything other than an attack from some guy who hates francis? The thought crossed my mind; I hope Pope Francis is innocent of the accusations.
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Aug 27, 2018 02:40
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The Phlegmatist posted:people are going to read into this however they want depending on how they currently feel about pope francis I think so too. The Church is too polarized to address this properly, which I fear means the abuse and cover up will continue. Personally, though I often disagree with the Holy Father, I don’t think he should resign. I think he needs to clean house.
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Aug 27, 2018 02:41
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Someone help me out here. I'm discussing theology with a friend. Somewhere not long ago, someone in the previous thread argued that homosexuality wasn't really that big of a deal in the eyes of the Church, and quoted a story in which a character essentially claimed that if God did this, it wasn't their place to object. Can anyone direct me back to that?
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Aug 27, 2018 02:49
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post ur huge early 20th century family ca. 1925, between the World Wars and before the worst of the Dust Bowl. From left to right: Coral (mom), Cora (bareass baby), Bill, Paul, Dorothy, JoAnn (my grandma), Pickles (dog), Lewis, Ralph (dapper gentleman in tie) this is the Koschitzke family, which HEY GUNS tells me is an extremely East German name. they changed their name to "Kositzky" at Ellis Island because their name literally sounded like poo poo. they emphatically maintained that they were NOT POLISH.
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Aug 27, 2018 02:53
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on one side of my family, both of those grandparents were one of 9 kids. i had a lot of great aunts and uncles when i was little
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Aug 27, 2018 02:55
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Lutha Mahtin posted:on one side of my family, both of those grandparents were one of 9 kids. i had a lot of great aunts and uncles when i was little Yeah I dunno how much it was a nation-wide thing at the time, but definitely in agricultural/farming families everyone had a bajillion kids. Basically everyone in my grandparents' generation (born between the wars, roughly 1910-1930) had ~10+ kids in their family. Then that dropped off dramatically post-WW2 where 3-4 or less was much more typical. basically this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk yes im trolling you thread Catholics, fite me!! Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 03:06
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Speaking of family, I could use some prayers. My dad is 87 and was diagnosed with pneumonia at the end of July. He got a chest x-ray for it, and they discovered he also had a massive tumor in his lung, which had metastasized to his liver, lymph nodes, and most internal organs already. The pneumonia won't clear because the tumor is providing all sorts of protected areas to shield the pneumococcus bacteria and keep it safe. After 3 rounds of oral antibiotics, he spent a week at home where he could neither eat nor drink, and slowly degenerated and finally got to the hospital yesterday. He's now on fluids to fight dehydration, three or four rounds of IV antibiotics, and now can barely get out of the bed to go 10 feet to the bathroom with a walker and help from the PT. This man was vigorously working in his garden, pulling weeds and raising fences to fend off deer three weeks ago - and he hasn't even started on cancer treatments yet. We get to start on that once the pneumonia finally clears (if ever). He's got an awfully long, steep road to climb if he's going to make it and I don't see how he will. I hope as ever for the miraculous healing hand of God, that he may survive this, but then he's 87 years old with cardiac problems - how much longer would he be expected to survive even without all this? We all must go eventually, but life is so precious, we want every instant of it here that we can get. Anyway, this is a powerful group and I respect your faiths immensely. Please put John Moyer in Midland Michigan on your lists for a while. He's going to need all the help he can get. I'll post with news on his condition periodically. I love all of you and thank you for the gift of yourselves and these threads.
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Aug 27, 2018 03:18
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Deteriorata posted:Speaking of family, I could use some prayers. Of course I will keep your dad in my prayers! My close colleague just went through a similar situation with her mother. I don't mean to be negative or pessimistic, but you should consider how you can best comfort your dad. It sounds like a pretty terminal situation. I will pray for you and yours, but as a pragmatist I might suggest you prepare for hospice and palliiative care, and to invite as many visitors to see your dad while he is still lucid. Unfortunately, people of his age tend to go downhill very rapidly health-wise. While I pray for his recovery, I would also suggest getting as many friends and family to visit him as possible. It's likely your time with him is limited, and you want to make his remaining days as comfortable, joyous, and filled with friends and family as possible. Again, I hope I don't come across as morose or dismissing of your father's outlook. But, I think it's important that you seek to give your dad as much loving attention and visits from family as possible. I will be praying for John and your family, and I would strongly suggest that you make every minute count and bring in every friend and family member to comfort him. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 03:33
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If you're not in contact with your local hospice organization or some other kind of palliative care provider make sure you are tomorrow, they're going to be just as important in helping you cope as they are for him.
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Aug 27, 2018 03:56
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Lutha Mahtin posted:is this really anything other than an attack from some guy who hates francis? Perhaps in regards to this, Francis said something. https://www.ncronline.org/news/accountability/pope-francis-dismisses-viganos-accusations-mccarrick-cover
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Aug 27, 2018 04:23
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Pellisworth posted:they emphatically maintained that they were NOT POLISH. that's how they trick you into a false sense of security, then they're feeding you pierogis and bigos and bisongrass vodka and next thing you know you're a marian catholic and have really strong opinions about russia
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Aug 27, 2018 07:57
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So I got shoved into the council of elders of my blot guild! I thought this was a great honour, but it's mostly spergs arguing over silly things. I feel initiated one level deeper into the congregational experience  Seriously though, would any of your churches accept if a member, even a senior one, of the church council proposed that the church priest submit a blueprint of all their planned services for council approval? That kind of veto power seems both bureaucratic and dumb. This essentially happened at the meeting, because our ealdorman (ritual and logistic position) got mad that a gydje didn't have the "right" gods in her service and instead of having faith in his organization wanted to be able to greenlight all services from then on 
Tias fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 07:58
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We call those people liturgists in Catholic practice. The joke goes that they're like terrorists except terrorists can be negotiated with.
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Aug 27, 2018 10:30
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Tias posted:Seriously though, would any of your churches accept if a member, even a senior one, of the church council proposed that the church priest submit a blueprint of all their planned services for council approval? That kind of veto power seems both bureaucratic and dumb. that's how it works in a lot of elder-led churches where the pastor serves at the pleasure of the board of elders
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Aug 27, 2018 11:04
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Ok. It would be kind of a shitshow here, because a) 4-5 different people share the responsibility of leading services and b) said people are mostly bad rear end but absent-minded old ladies who don't want to submit their ritual a month early in the likely event something needs tweaking.
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Aug 27, 2018 11:07
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litany of gulps posted:Someone help me out here. I'm discussing theology with a friend. Somewhere not long ago, someone in the previous thread argued that homosexuality wasn't really that big of a deal in the eyes of the Church, and quoted a story in which a character essentially claimed that if God did this, it wasn't their place to object. Can anyone direct me back to that? The text I quoted was from Sayings of the Desert Fathers, which were written down in the 4th century: 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:35 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 11:31
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man who got fired for trying to ratfuck the pope releases 11 pages of unsubstantiated claims that just so happen to make francis look like poo poo; as much as i hear those accusations and go "yeah maybe" the fact is, if it looks like a ratfucking, sounds like ratfucking, and fucks like a ratfucking, it's probably a ratfucking by the by ratfucking is the greatest politics term and i am so happy to use it as many times as possible. i love it more than reminding people mccain crashed three planes, and if he wasn't captured by the vietcong probably would have continued to crash planes until the us military ran out of planes for him to crash
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Aug 27, 2018 11:31
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Tias posted:So I got shoved into the council of elders of my blot guild! I thought this was a great honour, but it's mostly spergs arguing over silly things. I feel initiated one level deeper into the congregational experience the next step in spergdom is being part of the committee that argues about the finances
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Aug 27, 2018 11:33
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Senju Kannon posted:by the by ratfucking is the greatest politics term and i am so happy to use it as many times as possible. i love it more than reminding people mccain crashed three planes, and if he wasn't captured by the vietcong probably would have continued to crash planes until the us military ran out of planes for him to crash HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 11:33
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Deteriorata posted:He's got an awfully long, steep road to climb if he's going to make it and I don't see how he will. I hope as ever for the miraculous healing hand of God, that he may survive this, but then he's 87 years old with cardiac problems - how much longer would he be expected to survive even without all this? We all must go eventually, but life is so precious, we want every instant of it here that we can get.
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Aug 27, 2018 11:39
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The Phlegmatist posted:that's how it works in a lot of elder-led churches where the pastor serves at the pleasure of the board of elders there are not enough of us at my church to have that kind of committee, but when my priest's daughter tells him what the thing is supposed to look like, he listens more often than not
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Aug 27, 2018 11:41
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HEY GUNS posted:don't do this. Luke 6:28. In this thread we will pray for the soul of God's servant John, who has fallen asleep. i tend to not give a poo poo about people who invade foreign countries for like, no reason, and who spend most of 2009 and 2010 sabotaging the hell out of healthcare reform because they were butthurt about losing an election. and you know, voted for the patriot act i reject wholeheartedly the culture of sanctifying the dead because they're dead. john mccain was a bitch, ronald reagan was trash, and margaret thatcher is rotting in hell with the two of them. you can't spend your entire adult life making the lives of everyone in your country and abroad hell and then expect to have your rear end patted because your brain cancer (whose entirely publicly funded treatment you enjoyed while spending most of your career keeping the same funding from the american people) killed you. gently caress that, if your politics caused people to die, like both from having america invade their country for no real reason (why were we in afghanistan and iraq? bin laden was in pakistan, like even if you accept the idea that retaliation for terrorists destroying the twin towers was a reason to invade a sovereign nation, the surviving mastermind wasn't in afghanistan and iraq had literally nothing to do with it) or by fighting healthcare reform to the point it becomes nothing more than corporate welfare that utterly failed to significantly increase the number of people insured in the country, then i'm going to make jokes about how the vietcong's biggest mistake was not letting mccain keep crashing those planes
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Aug 27, 2018 11:59
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Senju Kannon posted:basically angry white noise It's not about him, he's irrelevant. It's about your soul and your moral choices.
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Aug 27, 2018 12:03
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Senju Kannon posted:man who got fired for trying to ratfuck the pope releases 11 pages of unsubstantiated claims that just so happen to make francis look like poo poo; as much as i hear those accusations and go "yeah maybe" the fact is, if it looks like a ratfucking, sounds like ratfucking, and fucks like a ratfucking, it's probably a ratfucking vigano, who himself ordered documents destroyed in order to cover up a clerical sex abuse scandal in MN, mysteriously grows a conscience at the exact same time pope francis attends the world meeting of families in ireland where fr. martin spoke about how the church needs to faithfully welcome LGBT catholics. hmm. and nobody can figure out exactly what sanctions were placed on mccarrick since he was traveling and celebrating mass at the vatican during the supposed time period, but oh well
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Aug 27, 2018 12:30
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my religion is basically "sinners in the hands of an angry god" except instead of an angry god it's a compassionate buddha so allow me to say; it literally does not matter in my religion whether i piss on ronald regan's grave or not, and to be perfectly frank i think holding old white people whose politics murder people accountable for their actions after they die is fine john mccain was a bad person. calling him a bad person who crashed three planes in vietnam and only got that far because he had a war hero daddy and if he hadn't been a pow he wouldn't have a career in politics does not become morally wrong just because he died. it was fine when he was alive and it's fine now that the old bastard is dead. this idea that someone dying means all of a sudden we have to pretend they weren't an incompetent soldier and an incompetent politician whose "maverick" persona was entirely fabricated is ridiculous. and yeah, when hillary and trump die i'm gonna make the same jokes about their sorry lilly white asses too (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 27, 2018 12:31
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I've told you to stop more than once. If you don't understand the difference between making noise and holding people accountable for their actions I don't know how to make you.
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Aug 27, 2018 12:33
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