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Cythereal posted:Well, it may be getting worse. At first brush this makes me think of this thing about Tuam from last year https://nyti.ms/2iH7ISK that I happened to read this morning, though much worse and in more lurid detail.
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Aug 27, 2018 19:25
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Paladinus posted:You want politics? Fine! Here's an icon of St. Gabriel of Samtavro, a monk from Georgia who was persecuted by KGB for burning a giant portrait of Lenin on Mayday. Badassssssss
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Aug 27, 2018 19:31
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Slimy Hog posted:Badassssssss 
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Aug 27, 2018 19:40
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So, last time I wrote about how a pretty much terrible priest made me decide I believed in God, but I didn't want to be a Christian after my confirmation. Years later I decided to give it another try. I am now in my early 20s.Not by going to a church or speaking with a priest again, but by reading the Bible. I felt like I needed some kind of closure, but also knowing more of what I was rejecting. So I bought a Bible. And started reading. Page 1, In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth....OK, this isn't bad. Can't imagine anyone taking this literally, but it is a nice text. I always loved reading myths, legends, and fairy tales, and this was another of those. Genesis good. Exodus good. Sure, there were bits and pieces that made me go WTF is this???, but no more than when I read other old texts. I have to accept that people had some not up to date ideas 1000s of years ago. See also Greek myths, Edda, etc. But the good outbid the bad. Then came Leviticus. No...don't think I like this book anymore. And Deuteronomy? OK, I was right. Christianity is not for me. gently caress off, religion victim blaming rape victims and calling women unclean. A few months later I decided to give it one more try. Skip the Old Testament, go straight for the Jesus bits. And guess what? Liked the gospels. Jesus was a great person. So I didn't always agree with everything he said, but most of it was absolutely great. Also, Jesus seemed like a real person. Someone you could sit down and talk with, and explain your side of the argument when you disagreed. I could absolutely see Jesus taking it "But what if...?" seriously and give you a proper answer. No, I don't think Jesus would tell children to obey a parent who was literally raping them. I saw Jesus as a person who would probably have been great to hang out with, and you could absolutely see enjoying a pint at the pub, or cracking a joke while doing an unpleasant, but necessary task. I like you, Jesus. And while I admit that I am unable to quite live up to all of your teachings, I see why the world would be better if we all followed your example. All four Gospels spoke to me, in different ways. But Luke was by far my favourite among them. Acts didn't speak to me in the same way. It seemed more like the first draft of a novel, before the author has quite gotten every piece of the story. Can't really put my finger on it, I just didn't like how it was written, compared to the Gospels. Which is weird, since I later learned that Luke and Acts were written by the same person... Paul and his letters. OK, I didn't finish them. Not so much that I disagreed with Paul on several things, which I did, but I didn't like Paul as a person. Like I said, I felt like Jesus was someone you could talk to, argue with, ask for explanations, and be heard and understood, even if Jesus felt you were wrong. That even a small "Well, I tried. Didn't succeed, but I tried" would be met with a "I know you did your best. It is hard. I will try to help you do better in the future. You admit your failure, now you can put that behind you and start fresh" type person. But Paul was "I AM PAUL! I AM RIGHT! It is my way or you can sod off!" type person. I really can't see Paul having any kind of respectful debate with someone questioning his teachings. Where as Jesus tried to explain WHY you should do X, Y, and Z, Paul was too Black or White, no questions allowed, no nuance to anything. A skimmed the rest. The James letter was nice. Gave up on Revelations, way too many weird references I didn't get. In the end, I decided to stick with the Gospels. Reading them, and trying to understand God through Jesus. And Like my Granny feel that prayers didn't have to be rattling off a lot of words, but that "Dear God, you know what is in my heart, Amen" is good enough. Next time: I enter a disaster of a marriage, and find that my mother-in-law is in a fringe cult/church.
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Aug 27, 2018 20:42
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acts kinda is a first draft, it's one of the oldest NT books and one of THE oldest early christian writings the thing with the bits of the bible that are about history is that it's history: we don't have to act like these people, it's just recording them. so the rape blaming part you can toss out in your own life edit: quote:trying to understand God through Jesus. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 20:51
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happyphage posted:also sidenote my agnostic boyfriend asked me the other day about what order he should read the Bible in, and I remember vaguely that folks here recommended an order at one time for those with no prior Christian knowledge - something about starting with Matthew, Mark or Luke (not John) and then going to Acts, I think? Does anyone here have a good order? It's tough for me as I'm not really trained in "teaching" Christianity and I'm a cradle Lutheran so I feel like I may not have the greatest insight into such matters One common recommendation is to go with one of those gospels, then follow up with Acts and John (in any order). Acts because it's the continuation of the story and John because it's an interestingly different take on the same gospel. If you're more interested in theology, Romans is very good place to go after that, if you are more into history and what was before Jesus, then go to Genesis, Exodus and onwards as long as you feel like it. Insert Psalms in there somewhere. In the end, though, anything goes. Some things just may need more context than others.
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Aug 27, 2018 20:58
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Not liking Paul as a person is pretty normal. I'm pretty sure there's a good reason he was given the job of preaching the gospel SOMEWHERE ELSE FAR AWAY THANKS
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Aug 27, 2018 22:00
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Paul is a fascinating figure because I'm not sure Christianity as a religion would've survived without his tremendous success as a missionary, but I'm never sure how I feel about his actual teaching and character.
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Aug 27, 2018 22:07
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I actually really appreciate that two of the most prominent people in the early church (Peter and Paul) are both presented as really flawed people.
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Aug 27, 2018 22:09
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pidan fucked around with this message at 11:51 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2018 22:11
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Well, also, Paul was writing to communities that were coming up with theological and practical problems because the entire practice of the religion was new. He was trying to answer questions they had about what to do in dilemmas they had with their new faith. E: Actually the whole bit in Jesus Christ superstar about 'why did you come at this time and in this nation, before mass communication' is missing that the historical moment when Christ arrived actually DID present almost unprecedented mobility and freedom to travel and preach throughout the regions of the Roman Empire at that time. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Aug 27, 2018 |
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Aug 27, 2018 22:13
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Battykiara - did you read Ecclesiastes?
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Aug 27, 2018 22:29
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docbeard posted:Not liking Paul as a person is pretty normal. I'm pretty sure there's a good reason he was given the job of preaching the gospel SOMEWHERE ELSE FAR AWAY THANKS As someone with skin in the game, so to speak, I'm pretty happy he won the argument at the first council.
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Aug 27, 2018 22:31
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CountFosco posted:Battykiara - did you read Ecclesiastes? the last time i read Ecclesiastes, I realized that the author should probably be considered one of the first goons in recorded human history it's also an interesting book to read if you have ever known a stoner who likes to talk about philosophy when they're high
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Aug 27, 2018 22:48
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CountFosco posted:Battykiara - did you read Ecclesiastes? If not,TL;DR https://youtu.be/Ms_S3sd5JzU
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Aug 27, 2018 22:52
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Night10194 posted:Paul is a fascinating figure because I'm not sure Christianity as a religion would've survived without his tremendous success as a missionary, but I'm never sure how I feel about his actual teaching and character. also during the german renaissance they represented paul as a mercenary colonel, which Speaks To Me
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Aug 27, 2018 23:15
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The other thing is the main thing I can be sure of about him, from what I know of the man, is that his conversion was extremely sincere (unless all the biblical sources are totally inaccurate somehow) and that he really thought the return of Christ was imminent and that one of the most important things in the world was spreading the word of salvation as fast and far as he could. Like, he makes sense. He's got problems but I feel like I kind of understand him as a person as much as we can understand a person from their writings and a few other writings about them thousands of years later.
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Aug 27, 2018 23:29
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Christianity 101 reading lists: Barest minimum: one of Matthew or Mark, then Acts. Matthew is probably the most "well-rounded" Gospel and combined with Acts gets you the basics of Christianity and the early church. Slightly more: Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, Romans. This gets you a more comprehensive reading of the Gospels as well as a dose of early church / Pauline theology in Romans. Better yet: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Job.
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Aug 27, 2018 23:30
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I kind of like Paul's teachings better than I like Jesus's. You read the Pauline letters, and you think, "Ok, I know what you want me to do....don't be promiscuous, don't gossip, work hard, take care of each other, don't argue, help people in need, settle disputes amongst yourself without bringing the law into it, love one another, and stuff like that. And, ok, some of it is embarrassingly first century Hellenistic Greek, like "women shouldn't speak in public" and "The man is the head of the family and his wife needs to obey him", and "While you probably should set your slave free if he's also a believer, eh, he's your slave, so it's your business, but don't beat him too severely", and that sort of thing. But all in all, I get it. You could probably live reasonably happily in a community that does that stuff, and I could see myself living that way. With Jesus, though, it's all "If somebody hits you, let him hit you again" and "Sell everything you have and come follow me" and "the world is coming to an end" and cursing fig trees and stories about shepherds and a guy with a crappy son who he treats great and a loyal son who he treats like crap, and saying that if you believe in God you can move mountains around and stop storms and heal sick people,, and you're like, "Look, Jesus, this is great, but do you have any actual practical advice about how I can live that doesn't leave me an itinerant faith healer who gets beaten up a lot and gets unreasonably mad at orchards?" And I know it sounds like I'm being flippant or disrespectful here, but I'm not trying to be. I get that if you're a Christian who thinks that Jesus is God then you pretty much have to figure everything he says is wise and of great meaning, but for a non-Christian, the Jesus of the Gospels is pretty opaque and it's not really a guide to practical living.
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Aug 27, 2018 23:32
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senju kannon, considering that mccain's former jailer liked him while he was alive and was extremely respectful about his death, you're not even scoring commie points by yelling about him
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 28, 2018 00:02
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Slightly doofy and flawed TV show 'AD: Kingdom and Empire' had a depiction of Paul in it that I adore. He was an rear end in a top hat when he was persecuting the Christians and he was an rear end in a top hat after he converted, and he's a delight to watch. ...I really like that show and I'm not sure it deserves it.
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Aug 28, 2018 00:08
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There's a whole book about people hating Paul. Paul as a Problem in History and Culture: The Apostle and His Critics Through the Centuries. It's good.
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Aug 28, 2018 01:04
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Epicurius posted:With Jesus, though, it's all "If somebody hits you, let him hit you again" and "Sell everything you have and come follow me" and "the world is coming to an end" and cursing fig trees and stories about shepherds and a guy with a crappy son who he treats great and a loyal son who he treats like crap, and saying that if you believe in God you can move mountains around and stop storms and heal sick people,, and you're like, "Look, Jesus, this is great, but do you have any actual practical advice about how I can live that doesn't leave me an itinerant faith healer who gets beaten up a lot and gets unreasonably mad at orchards?" And I know it sounds like I'm being flippant or disrespectful here, but I'm not trying to be. I get that if you're a Christian who thinks that Jesus is God then you pretty much have to figure everything he says is wise and of great meaning, but for a non-Christian, the Jesus of the Gospels is pretty opaque and it's not really a guide to practical living. the gospels kick rear end, actually
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Aug 28, 2018 01:57
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Epicurius posted:I kind of like Paul's teachings better than I like Jesus's. You read the Pauline letters, and you think, "Ok, I know what you want me to do....don't be promiscuous, don't gossip, work hard, take care of each other, don't argue, help people in need, settle disputes amongst yourself without bringing the law into it, love one another, and stuff like that. And, ok, some of it is embarrassingly first century Hellenistic Greek, like "women shouldn't speak in public" and "The man is the head of the family and his wife needs to obey him", and "While you probably should set your slave free if he's also a believer, eh, he's your slave, so it's your business, but don't beat him too severely", and that sort of thing. But all in all, I get it. You could probably live reasonably happily in a community that does that stuff, and I could see myself living that way. For me, "Love one another" pretty much sums it up. And I know that's equally flippant, but also there's a story (who knows how true, and who cares) about an elderly Apostle John, who was known for just repeating that over and over, and when asked he'd always say "If you manage to get that right, there's nothing else really necessary". Also, fuckin' fig trees, man. They know what they did.
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Aug 28, 2018 02:09
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Epicurius posted:I kind of like Paul's teachings better than I like Jesus's. You read the Pauline letters, and you think, "Ok, I know what you want me to do....don't be promiscuous, don't gossip, work hard, take care of each other, don't argue, help people in need, settle disputes amongst yourself without bringing the law into it, love one another, and stuff like that. And, ok, some of it is embarrassingly first century Hellenistic Greek, like "women shouldn't speak in public" and "The man is the head of the family and his wife needs to obey him", and "While you probably should set your slave free if he's also a believer, eh, he's your slave, so it's your business, but don't beat him too severely", and that sort of thing. But all in all, I get it. You could probably live reasonably happily in a community that does that stuff, and I could see myself living that way. Well, the flip flopping is often attributed to there probably being more than one author for the Pauline chapters. Edit: said gospels before. Eep! twerking on the railroad fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Aug 28, 2018 |
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Aug 28, 2018 02:09
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docbeard posted:For me, "Love one another" pretty much sums it up. And I know that's equally flippant, but also there's a story (who knows how true, and who cares) about an elderly Apostle John, who was known for just repeating that over and over, and when asked he'd always say "If you manage to get that right, there's nothing else really necessary". Except, I don't know how you build a society or a community around "love one another". I don't know. I don't want to make a big thing about this. Everybody has the right to belive what they want, after all, and if you can organize society around loving each other, more power to you.
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Aug 28, 2018 02:56
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Jesus was bringing the people to Full Communism Now and Paul settled for building the dictatorship of the proletariat
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Aug 28, 2018 03:00
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Epicurius posted:Except, I don't know how you build a society or a community around "love one another". I don't know. I don't want to make a big thing about this. my dude, do you know how many revolutions have been made over those words? people have made big deals about it way before any of us itt ever came along also i think the teachings of jesus are really helpful when it comes to society because another way to say "love your neighbor" is "quit being a dick to your neighbor". much progress has been made in my fine country, the U S of A, by rubbing assholes' noses in the consequences of their assholishness while quoting them parables that a child can understand. this was a major reason why slavery was abolished, why women are now (at least according to the law (most of the time)) considered to be people, and why we have made (uneven) progress in getting many minority groups to be treated like everybody else
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Aug 28, 2018 03:15
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Definitely wouldn’t get a beer with Paul. You might find out what he really thinks about you, or maybe he’d weep about his own unworth. At least early on. Later letters read much softer imo. I heard a take on Paul that helped me wrap my head around him. I think it was from Ben Witherington III’s Paul Quest, which is a terrible title. The claim was that Paul was a terrorist/religious extremist and the only thing that changed about him was his allegiance. If anything, his encounter with Christ made Paul more himself (more zealous). It takes someone extreme and maybe off putting to bring huge change. See also Luther.
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Aug 28, 2018 03:32
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He went from persecuting a religious minority to being a nonviolent evangelist. To say that the only thing which changed was his allegiance is selling him a bit short imho.
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Aug 28, 2018 03:49
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the difference between paul and pseudo paul is easy to spot; everything you like is by paul, everything you hate is pseudo paul
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Aug 28, 2018 03:49
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CountFosco posted:He went from persecuting a religious minority to being a nonviolent evangelist. i have big ole spidey sense flags going up when i read this sentence and im not 100% sure why
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Aug 28, 2018 04:48
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CountFosco posted:He went from persecuting a religious minority to being a nonviolent evangelist. To say that the only thing which changed was his allegiance is selling him a bit short imho. I think it communicates his zeal well and maintains Paul’s personality. Non-violent evangelist rings a little mushy in my ears, maybe a little hippie. The star student of Gamaliel who thought murdering for God was a holy is going to remain a driven person who others see as too extreme. Works for me.
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Aug 28, 2018 05:06
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https://twitter.com/malchera/status/1033837772451340289?s=21
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Aug 28, 2018 06:15
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Night10194 posted:The other thing is the main thing I can be sure of about him, from what I know of the man, is that his conversion was extremely sincere (unless all the biblical sources are totally inaccurate somehow) and that he really thought the return of Christ was imminent and that one of the most important things in the world was spreading the word of salvation as fast and far as he could. This is my bag as well. The fact that his conversion was brought on by a mystical experience (outside of Damascus IIRC?) makes him a much more relatable figure to the devout rather than just being christian because his mates were.
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Aug 28, 2018 07:18
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Sleng Teng posted:At first brush this makes me think of this thing about Tuam from last year https://nyti.ms/2iH7ISK that I happened to read this morning, though much worse and in more lurid detail. "How the gently caress did this go for so long" and "how you go from Matthew 18:6 to chucking kids out of the window" are questions that can launch several PhDs. What the gently caress.
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Aug 28, 2018 08:10
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Epicurius posted:With Jesus, though, it's all "If somebody hits you, let him hit you again" and "Sell everything you have and come follow me" and "the world is coming to an end" and cursing fig trees and stories about shepherds and a guy with a crappy son who he treats great and a loyal son who he treats like crap, and saying that if you believe in God you can move mountains around and stop storms and heal sick people,, and you're like, "Look, Jesus, this is great, but do you have any actual practical advice about how I can live that doesn't leave me an itinerant faith healer who gets beaten up a lot and gets unreasonably mad at orchards?" And I know it sounds like I'm being flippant or disrespectful here, but I'm not trying to be. I get that if you're a Christian who thinks that Jesus is God then you pretty much have to figure everything he says is wise and of great meaning, but for a non-Christian, the Jesus of the Gospels is pretty opaque and it's not really a guide to practical living. That's what I like about it. Loving your enemies and turning the other cheek goes against expectations.
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Aug 28, 2018 09:26
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pidan fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Dec 19, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2018 09:41
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Semi related, but to offset the shittyness, here's the near-best cat on the Bodega Cats of Instagram account:  Look at this lil fucker, basking in the well-deserved praise.
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Aug 28, 2018 09:50
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CountFosco posted:Battykiara - did you read Ecclesiastes? No, but I promise I will go read it. Thanks everyone for fun takes on Paul. I love the idea of "Hey, Paul, you are great at this conversion thing, why don't you take a year or to going to....erm….I heard Scandinavia is nice this time of year?" as a way to get rid of a well meaning, but overly enthusiastic person. I have noticed something disturbing in this thread. The silly hats are only worn by men! Where are the silly hats for women? I want equal opportunity silly hats!
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Aug 28, 2018 11:48
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