Retail Collapse 2019: Bezos realized that marriage is a form of union

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Retail Collapse 2019: Bezos realized that marriage is a form of union

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learnincurve: May 15, 2014; Smoosh

Ok that�s just loving nuts pricing. We pay about �4.50 an hour here ($5.80) works out at �448 ($575) a month and there are massive government subsidies https://www.gov.uk/help-with-childcare-costs/free-childcare-2-year-olds

# ? Aug 25, 2018 19:20

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# ? May 12, 2024 13:26

Tnega: Oct 26, 2010; Pillbug

learnincurve posted:

Ok that�s just loving nuts pricing. We pay about �4.50 an hour here ($5.80) works out at �448 ($575) a month and there are massive government subsidies https://www.gov.uk/help-with-childcare-costs/free-childcare-2-year-olds

Solution: children of parents who cannot afford the deferment are sent to Avocation Guidance, where they get to perform Terrestrial Ender's Games.

# ? Aug 25, 2018 19:42

Hand Row: May 28, 2001

That is a pretty standard rate here. Your monthly cost makes it look like you aren't doing full time. It would be 800 bucks a month at 5 dollar an hour full time at 8 hours a day. Can write it off for taxes here.

# ? Aug 25, 2018 19:45

DR FRASIER KRANG: Feb 4, 2005; "Are you forgetting that just this afternoon I was punched in the face by a turtle now dead?

Report from Walla Walla: there is a Sears appliance store on the main downtown drag. It is tiny.

# ? Aug 25, 2018 20:45

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004

learnincurve posted:

Ok that�s just loving nuts pricing. We pay about �4.50 an hour here ($5.80) works out at �448 ($575) a month and there are massive government subsidies https://www.gov.uk/help-with-childcare-costs/free-childcare-2-year-olds

I have friends with kids who would do literal murder to have daycare available that cheap.

Like, they'd call me to help move bodies and I wouldn't even complain, because that's a hell of a deal.

# ? Aug 25, 2018 22:12

CoolCab: Apr 17, 2005; glem

yeah the cost of living in the uk is really low compared to the us so long as your willing to live in an industrial graveyard. I actually like it a lot.

# ? Aug 25, 2018 23:35

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

learnincurve posted:

That argument is based around somone having one on one childcare, like you would have with a nanny. Poor people use daycare where you pay x per hour and there are many children there.

The big issue is that this system isn�t geared towards shift or night work so the poor have to use a friends and family network or they are screwed.

Also, this guy, if he made similar money to what I know my friend makes, can afford daycare. They're making $80,000-$100,000 a year in a professional, corporate job. Whinging about not being able to pay a nanny $15/hour is some bullshit.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 02:06

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

PT6A posted:

Also, this guy, if he made similar money to what I know my friend makes, can afford daycare. They're making $80,000-$100,000 a year in a professional, corporate job. Whinging about not being able to pay a nanny $15/hour is some bullshit.

I guarantee the argument is "well if she wanted a better job she'd have gone to college or worked harder." It's truly amazing the excuses these people will use to treat their economic lessers as little more than slaves.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 02:52

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

ToxicSlurpee posted:

I guarantee the argument is "well if she wanted a better job she'd have gone to college or worked harder." It's truly amazing the excuses these people will use to treat their economic lessers as little more than slaves.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 07:38

there wolf: Jan 11, 2015; by Fluffdaddy

ToxicSlurpee posted:

I guarantee the argument is "well if she wanted a better job she'd have gone to college or worked harder." It's truly amazing the excuses these people will use to treat their economic lessers as little more than slaves.

At the root of it they don't really think women, minorities, and/or immigrants deserve better jobs. Like they should be grateful that we're willing to pay them at all for such a little work, practically a hobby because taking care of kids is its own reward.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 08:42

Cheesus: Oct 17, 2002; Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.; Yam Slacker

there wolf posted:

At the root of it they don't really think women, minorities, and/or immigrants deserve better jobs.

I suspect it's more that they consider parenting an "easy" job and don't value how much work and effort it takes to do well.

Since they feel that way, they're likely poo poo parents. Probably had them because the rest of their social circle did. Unfortunately, due to their neglect, their kids will likely grow up to be shallow, vapid psychopaths.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 13:49

Owlofcreamcheese: May 22, 2005; Can't post for 9 years!; Buglord

Cheesus posted:

Since they feel that way, they're likely poo poo parents. Probably had them because the rest of their social circle did. Unfortunately, due to their neglect, their kids will likely grow up to be shallow, vapid psychopaths.

Jesus christ this is a lot of psychoanalysis based on someone making a comment that they wish there was a way to have someone watch their children while they work for less than 31,200 a year.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 13:58

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

There should absolutely be an affordable way for people to access quality childcare. It does not follow that you should be allowed to pay a private nanny less than $15/hour. That's really quite indefensible.

I mean, the fact that childcare is so expensive is a perfect example of one of the many reasons why anything less than a $15/hour minimum wage is complete poo poo.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 14:03

Owlofcreamcheese: May 22, 2005; Can't post for 9 years!; Buglord

calling someone's children shallow vapid psychopaths is extreme over reaction to someone wishing child care cost less. Like it's obvious why it can't cost less, but that doesn't make people hate the price any less.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 16:23

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

Children ARE shallow vapid psychopaths

# ? Aug 26, 2018 17:16

Owlofcreamcheese: May 22, 2005; Can't post for 9 years!; Buglord

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Children ARE shallow vapid psychopaths

Not because you wished you could pay less than half your income for childcare once while forgetting to think of how that would work for the child care provider

# ? Aug 26, 2018 17:18

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

PT6A posted:

Also, this guy, if he made similar money to what I know my friend makes, can afford daycare. They're making $80,000-$100,000 a year in a professional, corporate job. Whinging about not being able to pay a nanny $15/hour is some bullshit.

There are some metros where (decent) daycare is really loving expensive; they're pretty much the same places where rent is really loving expensive. When we left the bay area in 2016, our son's daycare was like $1325/month and that was definitely on the cheaper end of things. $15k after tax is no joke. That's still doable for a white-collar professional...but it also makes it a major budget item, it's going to be bigger than anything else in your financial world probably other than rent (and probably bigger than rent if you have 2 young kids).

Kids are expensive as poo poo in America, and childcare is one of the things where social democracies are so, so much nicer to people. In Germany it's a sliding scale for childcare that tops out at, like, a few hundred euros a month.

# ? Aug 26, 2018 19:51

there wolf: Jan 11, 2015; by Fluffdaddy

Cheesus posted:

I suspect it's more that they consider parenting an "easy" job and don't value how much work and effort it takes to do well.

Since they feel that way, they're likely poo poo parents. Probably had them because the rest of their social circle did. Unfortunately, due to their neglect, their kids will likely grow up to be shallow, vapid psychopaths.

Yeah, systemic sexism has nothing to do with domestic labor being chronically undervalued across the board. It's only a coincidence that a vital job done mostly by women is considered "easy" and not worth paying actual money for.

# ? Aug 27, 2018 03:52

prisoner of waffles: May 8, 2007; Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.

there wolf posted:

Yeah, systemic sexism has nothing to do with domestic labor being chronically undervalued across the board. It's only a coincidence that a vital job done mostly by women is considered "easy" and not worth paying actual money for.

This is also partly why educators in America are so low status.

# ? Aug 27, 2018 05:27

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004

there wolf posted:

Yeah, systemic sexism has nothing to do with domestic labor being chronically undervalued across the board. It's only a coincidence that a vital job done mostly by women is considered "easy" and not worth paying actual money for.

It's darkly hilarious to watch in my old industry. I was a baker, and when I went to meet and greets and competitions it was fascinating to compare my old experience as a kitchen manager doing the same, because chefs de cuisine are overwhelmingly male, but the opposite is true in the pastry business. Guess which pays better and is more likely to win prestigious awards. :v:

An article on the difference

quote:

Dr. Andrew Chamberlain, who wrote the study for Glassdoor, says "occupation and industry sorting of men and women into jobs that pay differently" is the main cause for the gender pay gap across all professions in the United States. That doesn't necessarily explain the pay gap in kitchens because "chef" can be a vague term. But considering the fact that this year's JBFA Outstanding Pastry Chef semifinalists were nearly all women � 18 to two � perhaps it has some merit.

Glassdoor's research shows "employer policies that embrace salary transparency" can help eliminate hard-to-justify gender pay gaps, along with helping to achieve balance in male-female pay in the workplace.

# ? Aug 27, 2018 07:12

Leon Trotsky 2012: Aug 27, 2009; Can't post for 10 hours!

prisoner of waffles posted:

This is also partly why educators in America are so low status.

It's actually the opposite.

"Teacher" is considered a very good status and desirable job. People respect and value teachers more than they value male-dominated professions like sanitation workers.

The fact that it is seen as a "dream job" for many people and an occupation that is "not just a job" is the reason they can pay so low. Lots of people apply and lots of people will gladly take an offer with low pay.

It's why non-pro athletes, video game programmers, dancers, professors, pilots, and other passion project jobs all pay very poorly and can treat their employees terribly. Because there are a million other people who would gladly work there for free because of the industry/social status.

Additionally, teacher compensation is really whacked. In some states, you can be making 30k more per year than another state with the same amount of experience. New and young teachers are incredibly shafted, but if you stay for a long time and continually get new certifications and degrees (certifications are incredibly easy to get and almost every state in the country has automatic pay bumps for certifications) then you can easily make good money. The average salary for a teacher with 10 years experience and a Master's Degree is $68,120 over 9 months.

# ? Aug 27, 2018 14:40

Owlofcreamcheese: May 22, 2005; Can't post for 9 years!; Buglord

Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:

Additionally, teacher compensation is really whacked. In some states, you can be making 30k more per year than another state with the same amount of experience. New and young teachers are incredibly shafted, but if you stay for a long time and continually get new certifications and degrees (certifications are incredibly easy to get and almost every state in the country has automatic pay bumps for certifications) then you can easily make good money. The average salary for a teacher with 10 years experience and a Master's Degree is $68,120 over 9 months.

As someone that works with schools teacher pay is kinda all over the place. The week to week paycheck is nothing super amazing but if it was just that it'd be fine. It gets all weird because teaching is typically a 9 month a year job, with how real that is depending what sort of teacher you are, so making like 35,000 a year in 9 months is mathematically not terrible (not great, but not abysmal), it doesn't really help the teacher any who isn't going to get another job every year for 3 months and may or may not even be able to depending on what the real expectations for that time off is. Benefits are also really weird, where teacher health insurance is generally really good, and teachers tend to have absurd numbers of sick days and generous vacation, but literally could not ever take during the year vacation or sick days unless they have cancer or something. Plus teachers in a bunch of states don't get social security (seriously, did you know that?) and it seems like any sort of retirement plan is just rolling a dice school by school and varies even in a district.

# ? Aug 27, 2018 15:54

skooma512: Feb 8, 2012; You couldn't grok my race car, but you dug the roadside blur.

CoolCab posted:

yeah the cost of living in the uk is really low compared to the us so long as your willing to live in an industrial graveyard. I actually like it a lot.

The industrial graveyard is still 1700 a month for 1BR in US major cities.

And you get to pay for healthcare that they'll renege on when they have the most flimsy excuse :v:

# ? Aug 27, 2018 16:39

FCKGW: May 21, 2006

OSH is closing up shop

quote:

Orchard Supply Hardware - whose mission was, according to its site, "to be America's neighborhood hardware and garden store focused on paint, repair, and the backyard" - is an iconic name in California going back to the Great Depression when it started as a non-profit co-op to supply farmers. But now it's scheduled to die.

Its 98 stores in California, Oregon, and Florida will be closed, along with its distribution center in Tracy, California. Its 4,000 employees will be let go. Liquidation sales start Thursday.

So said its owner, Lowe's (LOW), which is under pressure from Home Depot. This "exit" is "a necessary business decision," said Lowe's CEO Marvin Ellison in a statement. Let-go employees "will be given priority status if they choose to apply for other Lowe's positions."

Lowe's now gets the brick-and-mortar meltdown - with sales shifting to the internet. It's refocusing on "retail fundamentals," Ellison said. It will tighten its store inventory and it's reducing its footprint to get ready for a demanding brick-and-mortar retail environment.

This puts an end to Orchard's long history of being sold and resold, with bouts of independence and a bankruptcy in between. In recent history: Sears acquired OSH in 1996. In 2005, Sears Holdings - by then run by hedge-fund guy Eddie Lampert - announced that it would extract a special dividend of $450 million out of OSH, and that OSH would borrow the money to pay this dividend.

In January 2012, in typical private-equity manner, the now heavily indebted OSH was spun off to the public; 18 months later, in June 2013, OSH, buckling under this debt that Sears Holdings had put on it, filed for bankruptcy.

This is when Lowe's swooped in and bought most of its assets out of bankruptcy. At the time, OSH had 91 stores. Lowe's paid $205 million in cash. It was an effort to step on Home Depot's toes in California.

This is how the media gushed about the deal in September 2013, when the acquisition was completed:

The bid looks like a smart move by Lowe's to counter competition in the lucrative California real estate market from Home Depot, the nation's biggest home improvement retailer. Home Depot has more than twice the number of stores as Lowe's in California and they are located strategically, giving the company better access to consumers.

The California market is booming in particular, especially because of its enormous population. Here, Lowe's has only 110 stores out of its total 1,750 North American stores while rival retailer Home Depot has 233. Home Depot enjoys a further advantage as it is located in areas with high population density. OSH is also present in high-density, prime locations in California and has 89 of its 91 stores located in this state alone. In one fell swoop, Lowe's can get access to OSH's prime real estate properties without having to spend the time and a huge amount to build a presence on its own.

The hype about corporate acquisitions and the ingenuity behind them can be quite amusing.

Of the stores that went into the bankruptcy, 71 survived the process. The remaining stores were closed. Lowe's then proceeded to open new stores, including its first in San Francisco, in the North Beach area, in a location vacated by Petco. The grand opening was in 2015. It's a big store spread over two buildings, connected via a skyway. I rarely saw more than a couple of customers in it, unlike our other neighborhood hardware store that is small, crammed, and often packed. So it was hard to see how this huge store would ever make money.

I took this photo this morning and chatted with a nice but still stunned employee. They all had been told yesterday. The sign over the entry - "Now Hiring Happy People" - has now been obviated by events:

In 2016, OSH expanded to Florida, opening with great hoopla its first non-West-Coast stores. By that time, I'd been writing about the brick-and-mortar meltdown for a while, but Lowe's still didn't get it. Now they get it.

In its quarterly earnings report today, Lowe's added up the expected costs of this "strategic reassessment," a tab between $620 million and $705 million, for a store it had bought for $205 million.

$230 million in charges resulting from this "exit" which "led to long-lived asset impairments and discontinued projects during the second quarter."
$390 million to $475 million in costs "related to lease obligations, accelerated depreciation and amortization, and severance obligations."

This brings to a conclusion of sorts another side-chapter of Sears Holdings and another chapter of the brick-and-mortar meltdown.

Even brick-and-mortar sales at our hero-of-the-day Nordstrom actually fell!

Sears bought OSH, looted it's coffers, bankrupted it and spun it off to Lowes for $205m. Lowes is closing all stores and firing 4k employees.
The cost to close OSH will be around $700m :lol:

FCKGW fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Aug 27, 2018

# ? Aug 27, 2018 16:51

prisoner of waffles: May 8, 2007; Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.

I think LT2012 has some good points but still the historical fact-- that public school educators (primary school especially) in the US were predominantly women in various places and times-- remains.

"The Teacher Wars" covers some of this history, including the aspirations of women who saw teaching as a way for large numbers of women to find a place in society outside of their parents' or husband's household, gendered backlash (that women teachers were being too soft and coddling towards their pupils), and a "white feminist" labor moment where some feminists argued against letting black people teach during reconstruction (because they'd be 'taking' white women's jobs).

# ? Aug 27, 2018 16:53

big trivia FAIL: May 9, 2003; "Jorge wants to be hardcore,
but his mom won't let him"

there wolf posted:

No it's not. Daycare is still pretty expensive, running from $500-$1000 dollars for a month on the cheaper end. And even if you find something less, you're still responsible for providing diapers which adds hundreds more dollars on top. It's not uncommon for one parent to just give up their job because daycare expenses would eat up their entire salary anyway, especially if they have more than one kid. And that's middle class people. Poor people rely on family, friends, religious institutions, or that one old lady that watches kids at her house.

The thing is we already subsidize daycare for kids over a certain age through the public education system. We could do the same for babies and toddlers, or at least relieve a lot of the burden with paid parental leave and free diapers.

A page or so ago but this is what my wife & I did. Her earning power is such that she, most likely, would earn less than the cost of full-time childcare monthly, so she's a stay at home mother. Luckily I'm a high earner and we are in a very low cost of living area so we're fine by middle class standards, but yes, many people are forced to give up their careers/jobs for 4-6 years (if not more) because childcare is ridiculously expensive.

# ? Aug 27, 2018 18:44

LongSack: Jan 17, 2003

Owlofcreamcheese posted:

Plus teachers in a bunch of states don't get social security (seriously, did you know that?) and it seems like any sort of retirement plan is just rolling a dice school by school and varies even in a district.

When I worked for the state of Ohio in the mid-80s none of us paid into SS. There were 2 state retirement plans, SERS (state employee retirement system) and STRS (t for teachers). I have no idea if those things still exist, but the one advantage was that if you left state employment, you could get your money out, which I did after my 18 months installing Vaxes, Microvaxes, and 10base5 Ethernets.

Edit: I just looked them up, and apparently they both still exist, and also SERS stands for School Employee Retirement System, which I suppose I was in because the department I worked for (the euphemistically named �Department of Youth Services� which imprisoned juvenile felons and ran part of the foster care system) did, in fact, run schools. So perhaps the rest of the state�s employees did pay into SS.

LongSack fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Aug 28, 2018

# ? Aug 28, 2018 01:12

FilthyImp: Sep 30, 2002; Anime Deviant

California has STRS and PERS and guess why the state GOP is always painting UNIONS as evil money grubbers-- both funds are well endowed and have good returns and they're popping oozing boners at the thought of being able to raid that to "improve efficiency/reduce waste/give more back to The Children"

LA is also fairly unique in that a teacher who retired and served the last 10 years in the district got their health care covered for life. That's gone for the new hires, obvs.

# ? Aug 28, 2018 08:59

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

As Sears Withers, Its Former Stores Fuel a New Fortune https://nyti.ms/2BRTdos

More Sears news. All the good locations getting flipped, by another Lampert company.

# ? Aug 28, 2018 20:21

Raldikuk: Apr 7, 2006; I'm bad with money and I want that meatball!

BrandorKP posted:

As Sears Withers, Its Former Stores Fuel a New Fortune https://nyti.ms/2BRTdos

More Sears news. All the good locations getting flipped, by another Lampert company.

That's been the MO from the start. Good to see it getting some more press again though.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 03:12

OneEightHundred: Feb 28, 2008; Soon, we will be unstoppable!

Accelerating failure to rebuild with a better business model is probably a good thing overall, but I'm still kinda baffled that there hasn't been a shareholder lawsuit over what's blatantly self-dealing and sticking shareholders with the bill.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 04:07

Beachcomber: May 21, 2007; Another day in paradise.; Slippery Tilde

30 years ago when I was a kid my mom used to do under the table childcare for $1 per hour, per kid. Maxed out at something like 6 kids (playing with MY toys).

She really worried she'd be overcharging when she went up to $2 in 1996.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 19:14

eyebeem: Jul 18, 2013; by R. Guyovich

We switched from a corporate daycare place for two of our kids to a licensed, in-home daycare a few houses down. We were paying $3,200/month and now pay about $2,200. That�s for a 2 and 3 year old.

Daycare is brutal.

# ? Aug 30, 2018 02:51

prisoner of waffles: May 8, 2007; Ah! well a-day! what evil looks
Had I from old and young!
Instead of the cross, the fishmech
About my neck was hung.

I'm gonna do the lovely thing and remind y'all: even if one parent's after-tax income is less than the cost of childcare, a few years out of the labor force may present a challenge and definitely lowers expected income when kids go to school and free (probably) mom to go back to work.

# ? Aug 30, 2018 03:55

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004

prisoner of waffles posted:

I'm gonna do the lovely thing and remind y'all: even if one parent's after-tax income is less than the cost of childcare, a few years out of the labor force may present a challenge and definitely lowers expected income when kids go to school and free (probably) mom to go back to work.

There's a good chance, given the salary and opportunity gap, that a woman who takes even a couple years out of her career to be a stay at home mother may never recover, career-track wise.

# ? Aug 30, 2018 08:13

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Which is why we desperately need the parental leave/job guarantees that you often see in Western Europe, especially Nordic countries.

# ? Aug 30, 2018 08:16

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004

Cicero posted:

Which is why we desperately need the parental leave/job guarantees that you often see in Western Europe, especially Nordic countries.

Zero argument here.

# ? Aug 30, 2018 08:17

Blut: Sep 11, 2009; if someone is in the bottom 10%~ of a guillotine

The lack of paternal/maternal leave in the US is particularly shocking. Its one thing hating lazy poor people and building your society around that, but no parental leave completely screws over the middle class too.

It should be 1 year of paternal, 1 year of maternal across the board. Let a couple take 6 months together, then alternate 6 months each to get the baby up to 18 months.

# ? Aug 30, 2018 13:37

Doctor Butts: May 21, 2002

Lower the retirement age by a bunch, up the gently caress out of social security and Medicare so your parents/grandparents can help with childcare.

# ? Aug 30, 2018 13:41

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# ? May 12, 2024 13:26

there wolf: Jan 11, 2015; by Fluffdaddy

Doctor Butts posted:

Lower the retirement age by a bunch, up the gently caress out of social security and Medicare so your parents/grandparents can help with childcare.

Some people have lovely parents, though. Create paid parental leave, mandated it for both parents, and subsidize daycare. And while we're making wishes kill the fight over reproductive rights. Make birth control free and available to every person over 14, and abortions legal and easy to access. Give women the power to control their fertility and watch their productivity explode.

# ? Aug 30, 2018 16:26

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Retail Collapse 2019: Bezos realized that marriage is a form of union

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