Working in Development: Leaving sounds like a great decision.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Working in Development: Leaving sounds like a great decision.

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Virigoth: Apr 28, 2009; Corona rules everything around me
C.R.E.A.M. get the virus
In the ICU y'all......

My title is Senior Software Engineer because of my dept but I�d never interview under that title for many reasons least of them being I�m not that good of a Dev. I should be an Infrastructure engineer but noooooo you can�t have that title because reasons. Interviewing under a dev title is a terrifying prospect for me since I�m mostly a python/go scripter with an occasional small app, api or webpage and spend most of my day automating and debugging AWS stuff.

# ? Aug 28, 2018 11:34

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# ? May 10, 2024 05:40

Xguard86: Nov 22, 2004; "You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

Titles are so meaningless outside of a company that idk how anyone derives value from them.

However recruiters or recruiting software sometimes need a 1:1 match so everyone should do what they have to do getting past poor gate keepers.

# ? Aug 28, 2018 14:01

champagne posting: Apr 5, 2006; YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

Xguard86 posted:

Titles are so meaningless outside of a company that idk how anyone derives value from them.

I spoke with a company where the title for all scientists, and subsequently the title for all their jobs postings, were "chemist". I mean sure you could call automation of software a "chemist", but at best it'd be wrong.

# ? Aug 28, 2018 14:11

SardonicTyrant: Feb 26, 2016; BTICH IM A NEWT
熱くなれ夢みた明日を
必ずいつかつかまえる
走り出せ振り向くことなく
&

I would not trust a computer scientist with dangerous chemicals.

And by dangerous chemicals I mean source code.

Also, actual dangerous chemicals.

# ? Aug 28, 2018 16:48

BurntCornMuffin: Jan 9, 2009

SardonicTyrant posted:

I would not trust a computer scientist with dangerous chemicals.

And by dangerous chemicals I mean source code.

Also, actual dangerous chemicals.

"I designed this car to be initialized with gasoline, but then I found that chlorine triflouride burns so much hotter; I'm going to try using that next"

# ? Aug 28, 2018 18:13

Rubellavator: Aug 16, 2007

Re: documentation

I'm currently trying to figure out how some old code works so. The code is well-commented but most of the comments are longform descriptions of the function names. I'm currently trying to figure out why the default implementation of this condition class only cares about comparing the first values of two lists. It isn't a bug cause that is literally the purpose of the class as given in the comment, but the why is missing and I am totally loving confused.

The why is so important and usually not something apparent from self-documenting code and is usually left out in comments too.

# ? Aug 28, 2018 19:41

Bruegels Fuckbooks: Sep 14, 2004; Now, listen - I know the two of you are very different from each other in a lot of ways, but you have to understand that as far as Grandpa's concerned, you're both pieces of shit! Yeah. I can prove it mathematically.

Rubellavator posted:

Re: documentation

I'm currently trying to figure out how some old code works so. The code is well-commented but most of the comments are longform descriptions of the function names. I'm currently trying to figure out why the default implementation of this condition class only cares about comparing the first values of two lists. It isn't a bug cause that is literally the purpose of the class as given in the comment, but the why is missing and I am totally loving confused.

The why is so important and usually not something apparent from self-documenting code and is usually left out in comments too.

Yeah this is why I hate loving linters that bug people about comments.

Whenever some stupid rear end in a top hat puts on a linter that enforces "every method should have a comment", the codebase becomes 90%

code:

/* 
* getAbstractFactoryWaterfallInjectorVisitor<T>
* @param {string} factoryInjectorSite
* @param {boolean?} force
*/
public Observable getAbstractFactoryWaterfallInjectorVisitor(FactoryInjectorSite site,  bool defaultBehavior, Function callback ) {
   ....
}

And look what we've accomplished, a plain text text comment indicating... what the types of the function parameters are (often out-of-date). loving brilliant. (BTW the answer isn't to have the linter parse the comments and verify their accuracy, that is the epitome of useless busy work)

# ? Aug 28, 2018 20:44

Rubellavator: Aug 16, 2007

I was working on a project a few months ago that was enforcing space after // for comments and it actually made me mad at work.

# ? Aug 28, 2018 20:51

rujasu: Dec 19, 2013

Wait do you not normally put the space after the //? You monster!

# ? Aug 28, 2018 20:53

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

Our candidate vetting/interviewing process seems to have settled on Senior meaning �can solve Knight�s Tour on a whiteboard within 45 minutes�.

# ? Aug 28, 2018 21:50

Jose Valasquez: Apr 8, 2005

Rubellavator posted:

I was working on a project a few months ago that was enforcing space after // for comments and it actually made me mad at work.

We enforce space between if and (

code:

if (true) // good
if(true) // bad

I think it is a dumb rule but the auto formatter takes care of dumb stuff like that without me having to really think about it

# ? Aug 28, 2018 22:02

Doom Mathematic: Sep 2, 2008

I don't have strong opinions either way about rules like that but I find that having a consistent style across a codebase is unreasonably helpful for code legibility and comprehension. So I love having automated tools which just fix everything up for me every time I save.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 00:34

ultrafilter: Aug 23, 2007; It's okay if you have any questions.

if is a word. You put spaces between words, right?

# ? Aug 29, 2018 01:01

Che Delilas: Nov 23, 2009; FREE TIBET WEED

Jose Valasquez posted:

We enforce space between if and (
code:
if (true) // good
if(true) // bad
I think it is a dumb rule but the auto formatter takes care of dumb stuff like that without me having to really think about it

Hah, we enforce space between parens and params!

code:

public void PrintNumber( int number ) ...

Auto formatting, not linting, is the answer here. Format on save, never think again. Bonus points if you use the default code style of the tool you use, then you don't have to mess with team settings or EditorConfig or anything.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 01:32

fourwood: Sep 9, 2001; Damn I'll bring them to their knees.

Jose Valasquez posted:

We enforce space between if and (
code:
if (true) // good
if(true) // bad
I think it is a dumb rule but the auto formatter takes care of dumb stuff like that without me having to really think about it

We�re an

code:

if( true )

kind of place.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 01:33

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

Che Delilas posted:

Auto formatting, not linting, is the answer here. Format on save, never think again.

How do you transition into that? Anyone have experience doing it?

Seems like an invitation to explain the whitespace sensitivity options in blame/diff/etc. for the remainder of your time there.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 01:36

smackfu: Jun 7, 2004

a foolish pianist posted:

I'd hope a short phone/skype screen or little programming homework would filter those people out before you waste dev time with actual candidate interviews.

People cheat on those all the time. Have friends do the work or feed them the answers. I�m not sure what the end game is but I�ve seen it in real life.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 01:48

Che Delilas: Nov 23, 2009; FREE TIBET WEED

JawnV6 posted:

How do you transition into that? Anyone have experience doing it?

Seems like an invitation to explain the whitespace sensitivity options in blame/diff/etc. for the remainder of your time there.

I'm a fan of "talk to your team, get general agreement, grit teeth, pull trigger" as a general approach to big yet safe changes like this. If everyone in the building doesn't like the way the code looks or it throws them off, especially if the current style was instituted a decade ago, there's no reason not to just change it.

Also you can use "ignore whitespace" in any decent diff tool, so it really isn't a big deal for this example.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 01:57

Slimy Hog: Apr 22, 2008

smackfu posted:

People cheat on those all the time. Have friends do the work or feed them the answers. I�m not sure what the end game is but I�ve seen it in real life.

Seems like a good way to get fired once you start working and can't perform at the level everyone assumes you can.

Also,

Pollyanna posted:

Our candidate vetting/interviewing process seems to have settled on Senior meaning “can solve Knight’s Tour on a whiteboard within 45 minutes”.

IMO this seems like a good way to get lots of people good at whiteboarding and chess (or I guess memorizing answers to coding challenge problems) and miss out on people who are good at coding in a real-life situation.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 02:17

ChickenWing: Jul 22, 2010

code:

//@formatter:off

<entire file>

//@formatter:on

# ? Aug 29, 2018 03:23

Pollyanna: Mar 5, 2005; Milk's on them.

Slimy Hog posted:

IMO this seems like a good way to get lots of people good at whiteboarding and chess (or I guess memorizing answers to coding challenge problems) and miss out on people who are good at coding in a real-life situation.

Absolutely. I am not at all happy with how we approached that interview, not least because we can't even agree what we want out of our candidates, let alone know how to get that information out of them by asking the right questions and valuing the right things. I am pretty hosed off about it actually, but, well, there's not a whole lot I can do other than poo-poo it.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 03:37

ultrafilter: Aug 23, 2007; It's okay if you have any questions.

Now you understand more about why finding a job is so drat hard.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 03:48

qsvui: Aug 23, 2003; some crazy thing

Pollyanna posted:

Our candidate vetting/interviewing process seems to have settled on Senior meaning �can solve Knight�s Tour on a whiteboard within 45 minutes�.

Time to switch jobs again.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 04:23

Volmarias: Dec 31, 2002; EMAIL... THE INTERNET... SEARCH ENGINES...

Slimy Hog posted:

Seems like a good way to get fired once you start working and can't perform at the level everyone assumes you can.

Sure but by the time they get around to firing you you've got Work Experience on your resume and can pivot to another, larger company where you're able to squeeze into a big team of mediocre programmers and coast for years!

# ? Aug 29, 2018 04:43

Vulture Culture: Jul 14, 2003; I was never enjoying it. I only eat it for the nutrients.

Rubellavator posted:

I was working on a project a few months ago that was enforcing space after // for comments and it actually made me mad at work.

This rule exists to yell at code that's been commented out, but leave alone comments written by a sane person who doesn't misformat things on purpose just to see their coworkers cringe

# ? Aug 29, 2018 05:09

Hughlander: May 11, 2005

Ask me about the time that I had to work on a project that required clang-format to be run on all pull requests and had a coding policy that could not be expressed in clang-format...

# ? Aug 29, 2018 05:30

champagne posting: Apr 5, 2006; YOU ARE A BRAIN
IN A BUNKER

qsvui posted:

Time to switch jobs again.

never not time for this

# ? Aug 29, 2018 05:50

Keetron: Sep 26, 2008; Check out my enormous testicles in my TFLC log!

Our formatting rules are written in a config file only readable by eclipse so to use them in intellij, I need to install a plugin.
Everyone in our department migrated away from eclipse by now.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 05:52

Rubellavator: Aug 16, 2007

I'm fine with whatever dumb rules you want as long as you provide a formatting config. They did not.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 15:24

good jovi: Dec 11, 2000; 'm pro-dickgirl, and I VOTE!

I am so glad that most of my work is in terraform and golang these days. Built-in unconfigurable code formatters are the future.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 16:06

Che Delilas: Nov 23, 2009; FREE TIBET WEED

good jovi posted:

I am so glad that most of my work is in terraform and golang these days. Built-in unconfigurable code formatters are the future.

Yeah I want an option in visual studio for this. "Dear team: check this box and stop thinking." As it is I think you still have to download an extension.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 16:58

Munkeymon: Aug 14, 2003; Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.

Che Delilas posted:

Yeah I want an option in visual studio for this. "Dear team: check this box and stop thinking." As it is I think you still have to download an extension.

You can do it through regular settings as far as I know. At least as long as you can make VS do formatting the way you want it done.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 18:01

CPColin: Sep 9, 2003; Big ol' smile.

The real solution is to change our repositories to contain only AST's and never actual code.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 18:08

Munkeymon: Aug 14, 2003; Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.

CPColin posted:

The real solution is to change our repositories to contain only AST's and never actual code.

MSIL and Java Bytecode have good decompilers - just check in your build output and some project metadata and work backwards from there. Bonus side-effect: no build-breaking code can make it into the repository :v:

# ? Aug 29, 2018 19:19

Che Delilas: Nov 23, 2009; FREE TIBET WEED

Munkeymon posted:

You can do it through regular settings as far as I know. At least as long as you can make VS do formatting the way you want it done.

It'll auto format the scope you're working in but not the whole file afaik. But beyond that making it just opinionated and unconfigurable would be nice; the closest you can get to that with Visual Studio is to use the default settings and make everyone install a Format on Save extension.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 21:05

Munkeymon: Aug 14, 2003; Motherfucker's got an
armor-piercing crowbar! Rigoddamndicu𝜆ous.

Che Delilas posted:

It'll auto format the scope you're working in but not the whole file afaik. But beyond that making it just opinionated and unconfigurable would be nice; the closest you can get to that with Visual Studio is to use the default settings and make everyone install a Format on Save extension.

I didn't think about the scope limit, but I'd also prefer formatting old code touched scope-by-touched scope to keep diffs and blames more manageable.

# ? Aug 29, 2018 21:20

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

Visual Studio friends, have you considered .editorconfig?

also other editors support .editorconfig, but VS have a bunch of extensions to that format to support formatting C#

# ? Aug 29, 2018 22:05

Che Delilas: Nov 23, 2009; FREE TIBET WEED

redleader posted:

Visual Studio friends, have you considered .editorconfig?

also other editors support .editorconfig, but VS have a bunch of extensions to that format to support formatting C#

Yeah there are better options than there used to be, but it still requires setup and/or everyone to install extensions. I want perfection dammit! Worth spending the time to configure once for a big project at least though.

# ? Aug 30, 2018 04:50

Grimoire: Jul 9, 2003

Boiled Water posted:

I spoke with a company where the title for all scientists, and subsequently the title for all their jobs postings, were "chemist". I mean sure you could call automation of software a "chemist", but at best it'd be wrong.

Was this CAS? Sounds like 'em

# ? Aug 30, 2018 08:46

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# ? May 10, 2024 05:40

BaronVonVaderham: Jul 31, 2011; All hail the queen!

There was an argument in retro today: Devs have had nothing to do for almost a week because of an abrupt change of priority that invalidated our project and there was nothing written up about the new one we're supposed to shift to (wasn't supposed to happen for months). One dev brought this up in retro saying, "Well, we should just grab some of the infinite bugs in the backlog or that we've noticed on our own. Or start on stuff for next sprint and get ahead of the game."

There was major pushback because THE POINTS! THE POINTS WON'T BE ACCURATE! We won't "capture" that work that way!

What I heard: "But guys, you can't just do WORK without me facilitating it....otherwise why am I here?!"

Exactly :fuckoff:

It made my realize how top-heavy we are.....we have FIVE layers of management: Team Lead, Feature Teams Manager, Scrum Masters/BAs, Engineering Manager, Technology Department Manager (/CTO). We're a bit shorthanded on devs, we were outnumbered by people whose entire job is justifying its existence (and QA sides with them, since it makes their jobs easier).

It's just gotten to such a ridiculous point now.....we're literally blocking productivity for the sake of a process that is supposedly helping increase productivity? This is insane to me. Also, once again, arbitrary 2 week sprint deadlines being eliminated would take care of 90% of the problem here since we could just constantly move on to the next thing and keep moving. We're down to like 4 actual coding days in a 2 week sprint thanks to a growing "code freeze" period (QA demand).

I've just given up, though. Whatever, gently caress it, you want to pay me to read or go take a nap, that's your choice I guess.

# ? Aug 30, 2018 16:30

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