Radish posted:

If Biden gets elected he isn't rolling back one thing Trunp did. That dude is a snake.

Office Pig posted:

https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1035232401339953154

James Eastland posted:

"I don't like you — or your kind."

To fellow Senator Jacob Javits (R-NY), who was at this time the only Jewish-American Senator

LBJ posted:

Jim Eastland could be standing right in the middle of the worst Mississippi flood ever known and blame it on the negroes helped by the communists.

Ague Proof posted:

"The Senate was never perfect, but I'd watch Teddy Kennedy and James O Eastland fight like hell on civil rights then go get lunch together"

Radish posted:

Establishment Democratic hero spent the last week endorsing two openly corrupt white men over LGBT women then gives a speach about how we need to understand Republicans while they are trying to deport minority citizens at the funeral of a man who backed wars which killed millions.

kidkissinger posted:

Keith Ellison's ex-gf is now claiming that the evidence of his abusive behavior was destroyed when her computer was hacked.

Honestly I was completely on-board with believing her and dumping Ellison but this is sort of weird.

:\

kidkissinger posted:

If you're a republican who occasionally votes against torture you're a brilliant statesman. If you're a Democrat who always votes against torture it doesn't mean poo poo.

Lightning Knight posted:

The Australian government has opted to deny Chelsea Manning entry for her speaking tour.

kidkissinger posted:

Honestly I was completely on-board with believing her and dumping Ellison but this is sort of weird.

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

All the #MeToo in the world doesn't dismiss the simple fact that if someone claims they have ironclad evidence of their accusations and then fails to produce it for no good reason you should assume they are lying.

Edit: lying about the evidence, I mean.

King of Solomon posted:

https://twitter.com/SenSanders/status/1035244870259105805

Hahahah, Amazon is trying so hard to pretend they don't treat their workers like garbage.

kidkissinger posted:

If you're a republican who occasionally votes against torture you're a brilliant statesman. If you're a Democrat who always votes against torture it doesn't mean poo poo.

Lightning Knight posted:

*twilight zone music*

https://twitter.com/tuckercarlson/status/1035334044698009600?s=21

King of Solomon posted:

It's wild that he's talking about this, but he still ended it with some fascist smoothbrain poo poo.

Lightning Knight posted:

I read the body of the tweet and mentally completed it with "and this is why we should DEPORT THE ILLEGALS and BUILD THE WALL so that Americans can enjoy HIGHER WAGES and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN" and thus it became the standard Republican line instead of edging into Correct Opinions.

King of Solomon posted:

Nah, he ended it with something along the lines of "Conservatives like me believe in the free market, this isn't the free market, this is monopoly. Also these guys represent the left."

Or something like that.

Lightning Knight posted:

*twilight zone music*

https://twitter.com/tuckercarlson/status/1035334044698009600?s=21

Tiresias2 posted:

Thoughts!

Lightning Knight posted:

I've written out long responses to this twice but then closed them because I'm not entirely clear on what "insular academic religion feel" means to you and exactly what you think is classist about making fun of conservatives. I took guesses but I think you should clarify first.

I inferred that insular academic religion feel is either referring to impenetrable left-wing technical jargon or unironic Soviet cosplay.

Tiresias2 posted:

POC shouldn't get special treatment economically.

Lightning Knight posted:

I read the body of the tweet and mentally completed it with "and this is why we should DEPORT THE ILLEGALS and BUILD THE WALL so that Americans can enjoy HIGHER WAGES and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN" and thus it became the standard Republican line instead of edging into Correct Opinions.

Tiresias2 posted:

In addition to the jargon, a constellation of symbols pertaining mostly to foreign governments or intellectuals and a dismissive attitude towards the non-enlightened. Edit: In general things that vibe with the identity of specific groups rather than the people in general, i.e. identity politics, which includes proletarian identity politics, since I imagine many poor people don't exactly glorify their poverty.

Historically, a tendency to drive people apart rather than bringing them together over petty disputes (splitting) is a left-wing phenomenon, yeah? Valuing this or that given identity group and promoting their self-care before their care of others on the basis of a common identity, identity politics as we know it, is a pretty good way to do that too. Take the graph on the white working class' opinion on reparations. If they feel like they have a poo poo deal economically it's natural for them to feel that POC shouldn't get special treatment economically.

It's not reasonable to expect people to sell out who they are to a monolith unless they've been mentally broken, but we can expect them to come to an agreement that benefits both parties. And, hell, maybe then reparations will start sounding more reasonable to the white working class too.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Kind of the issue is with 'identity politics' is that there's no such thing as 'proletarian identity politics', identity politics as commonly practised completely excludes the economic axis entirely. Poverty is treated as an unpleasant side-effect of being a person of colour. When people actually start bringing up poverty at all, let alone the idea that it's not easy to sell poor white people on the idea that they have 'privilege' that needs to be given up for the good of society, they are generally dismissed as 'brocialists' and 'putting economic justice ahead of social justice'.

Lightning Knight posted:

there are a lot of leftists who like to Soviet cosplay

Lightning Knight posted:

Oh that's a shame, I wasn't expecting an anti-identity politics screed.

Well, in general, yes, there are a lot of leftists who like to Soviet cosplay and/or like to focus on knowing the right things to say and do publicly rather than trying to genuinely connect with the unconverted and that's probably not a good thing. But "identity politics," which in this context we're using as a convenient shorthand for "things that affect marginalized people specifically" rather than what it really means but lets go with that, is not a bad thing on its own. White people in general don't oppose reparations because they're in a bad place economically or not, they oppose reparations because American white racial identity is tied up in the myth that the US and its white majority has never done anything wrong to anyone and marginalized people are as they are because they either refuse or are unable to conform to what is considered normal. If you think about it, the US owes reparations to a lot more than just the descendants of slaves. Native Americans and people who live in Korea and the countries we bombed in Southeast Asia certainly come to mind, for example. We hosed those populations up in permanent ways and those people are still feeling the effects to this day, in a way that materially leaves them significantly worse off than the average white person. Don't make me bring out the graphs that show how the average middle to middle upper class black person ends up in housing that would be typical of white families that are significantly well off and are far more likely to see their children fall back into poverty.

But all of this is secondary to the reality that all politics is identity politics, in practice. Left-wing politics is at its core the concept that we should organize people by their class interests and for that to work, they have to have a class identity. Racial hierarchies and patriarchal systems are successful precisely because they cause particular groups of people (white, cisheteronormative, men) to think that solidarity isn't necessary for them and they have a stake in preserving the status quo. It's not the marginalized people organizing to be treated equally and gain rights that are related to but not necessarily the same as class equality that are the problem for left-wing activism.

"We can address the concerns of the most marginalized when white people of the majority are satisfied" is basically the calling card of people who have no interest in actually engaging with minority concerns. Likewise, the most successful left-wing mass movements in American history have always been driven intellectually and in terms of activism by people who were on the margins of society racially and in terms of gender and sexuality, because they have the biggest stake in seeing the system change for the better. Even Bernie, for all of his old man attitudes regarding identity politics and what the young people are on about these days, got his start participating in the Civil Rights Movement - a left-wing movement specifically about both economic inequality and the civil inequality of black Americans, led by and driven by black Americans.

So if your concept of how leftism should work boils down to "minorities should just shut up and not complain about being treated badly by the majority populations, until we have socialism" you're just sort of bad at leftism imo. The marginalized people of the world are the most effective and engaged leftists.


The stereotype of the hapless SJW going into trailer parks to tell poor white people about their privilege is mostly a fiction of the right, however. Actual left-wing organization on the ground focuses on trying to educate people about how prejudice from above divides them from their neighbors and how solidarity is the answer.

MSDOS KAPITAL posted:

Imagine thinking in TYOOL 2018 that you can go too far in the fight against fascism.

Tiresias2 posted:

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/08/mistaken-identity-asaid-haider-review-identity-politics

"Haider’s account of Black Power is not uncritical. He takes the movement to task for paving the way for black elites who abandoned racial uplift and implemented neoliberal economic policy. It’s not just mayors such as Kenneth Gibson, who helped decimate Newark’s public school system, who get Haider’s scorn, but even activist leaders like Jesse Jackson, whose 'efforts ended up lending a rainbow aura of legitimacy to the right wing of the Democratic party.'"

This is the kind of moral relativism I'm talking about, when you identify first with your own group, second with the greater number, it becomes easy to betray the greater number not just for your own group's sake, but for your own. I'm willing to bet Bernie is critical of identity politics because he lived them. But the thing that interests me the most is your last paragraph. "Actual left-wing organization on the ground focuses on trying to educate people about how prejudice from above divides them from their neighbors and how solidarity is the answer." Has that actually worked?

I've pulled this card way too many times on these forums, but I'm Mexican and I was deported from the US. My impression is that white people will be more willing to give reparations when it feels like charity and not like a guilt-trip precisely because it will make them feel better about themselves, I'm concerned with getting it done more than satisfying a revenge fantasy, but really them getting over their guilt should be part of the issue.

Tiresias2 posted:

Tiresias2 posted:

I think cross-dressing is beautiful, I also think it's tragic, because doing it in public is, in reality, often forcing one's minority sensibility on a less-than-enthusiastic majority.

Tiresias2 posted:

It would be mob rule if it were lawless. By making a prohibition into law it can be filtered through this or that procedure that is professional, not just the expression of hatred and cruelty. It can be mediated, understood, and a penalty can be come up with that's more proportional than lynching.

If I didn't shower, ever, because I loved the smell we would agree I was forcing my stench on people in public, right? America is more accepting surely, than Iran. So I can accept a gay pride parade in America. But in Iran? That's offensive to me, because it would be so offensive to them.

Lightning Knight posted:

I'm really sorry that happened to you.

VitalSigns posted:

Eh sounds like he was forcing his minority sensibilities on a less-than-enthusiastic majority. I'm sure he'd agree that his presence in America was offensive to him, because it was offensive to chuds.

Lightning Knight posted:

VitalSigns posted:

Sorry, hope that didn't upset you, but I don't have much patience for people who think I should be executed

Lightning Knight posted:

Hey, I like to make comrade and guillotine jokes on Twitter too, but I bow to respectability politics when it comes to actually engaging with people in person because that poo poo is really off-putting to normal people who aren't extremely online and to connect with people initially you have to look like you aren't a crazy person.

also I think that unironically calling each other comrade is kind of lame


It's funny that Jesse Jackson has lived long enough to become the villain, considering that when he ran for president his entire platform was built on the idea that the white poor and working class and black Americans had way more in common than white poor and working class people do with well-off white people, and he specifically campaigned for the support of working class white people as well as black people.

I don't think that the problem with well-off members of otherwise marginalized communities selling out is that they identify more with being marginalized, I think the problem is that they've sold out and their class interests are more important to them. Likewise, there's plenty of well-off people who have historically been willing to serve as class traitors for the left, including rather famously Friedrich Engels, or to use an arguable modern example, Colin Kaepernick.

Bernie's criticisms of identity politics have generally been vague and he hasn't spoken on it much, but I don't think his thoughts on the matter are based on some kind of backlash to his lived experience in the Civil Rights Movement or anything like that and more likely just a matter of him being part of a much older version of American leftism that had very different ideas to the modern left. I also don't think he can or should be the end all, be all arbiter of what is good leftism, considering that he is fallible and makes plenty of mistakes, such as his unwillingness to stand against Israeli apartheid or his hesitation to get behind abolishing ICE.

I'm really sorry that happened to you. My dad was born in Mexico and I worry every day that he's going to end up being one of the people that Trump takes citizenship away from, as he is naturalized but my parents have lost the paperwork after moving a few times. I think that waiting on white people to get better is a fool's errand, and that marginalized people should never sit around and wait for the majority to decide they're worth giving rights to. I also think that the connotations of guilt and original sin surrounding concepts like white or male privilege is really dumb and misunderstands the problem. Things like reparations aren't a good thing because we did a bad thing in the past and should make up for it, they're good because the bad things are ongoing, today, and still hurting people, and we have to make that right. It's about equality now, not retribution for the past.

To address your edits, I think that doesn't give poor people enough credit. I've found that it's not that hard to connect with working class white people (actual working class, not mcmansion in the suburbs "working class") on the basis of their own bad experiences with former bosses, landlords, banks, etc., as well as experiences with sexual harassment in the workplace, people being openly racist, and so on, and then use that to assert that these experiences should be seen as hosed up and bad, not just a normal part of the status quo. That's really the big sticking point for a lot of people who are comparatively privileged, myself included: understanding that this isn't or shouldn't be normal, and that it is in fact hosed up and bad. Once you make that transition, the rest is a lot easier to follow.

VitalSigns posted:

You seem to love identity politics a ton though



Like you seem really really enthusiastic about dividing people into identity groups first in order to privilege some groups above others in society and suppress any whose existence threatens your identity-centric sensibilities


Eh sounds like he was forcing his minority sensibilities on a less-than-enthusiastic majority. I'm sure he'd agree that his presence in America was offensive to him, because it was offensive to chuds.

Tiresias2 posted:

drat right I'm interested in identity politics, and you can take my poo poo out of context all you want dude, I'm not interested in special interests I'm interested in the construction of a common identity where everyone is understood and supported. That poo poo takes time and I'm dead certain violence isn't the only way to get it done. Like I said in those old posts, you go try and organize a pride parade in Iran but I assure you that no amount of guilt-tripping is going to convince a conservative Iranian majority to give a poo poo when people end up getting shot. That's just being real. But maybe we should export them some freedom like with Iraq. It would be more effective for people to experience good gay art, like Oscar Wilde or read Sandman or get to know minorities personally. There's a really good Chinese movie with gay themes, "Farewell my Concubine", that comes to mind. Quality art inspires people no matter how much an establishment tries to censor it. Over there in America you guys go all "Oh haha, he says he's not racist cuz he has black friends" over here in Mexico we get white academic wise asses thinking they're all about the indigenous peoples and they haven't ever met one in their life, indigenous people don't give a poo poo about those "allies" singling them out and I know quite a few indigenous people who would back that statement up. That poo poo isn't human, that poo poo doesn't bring people together, it's all abstract.

Tiresias2 posted:

I have mixed feelings about ICE, they deported me and all but as I've suggested I'm pretty into the idea of the nation state and I do want it to be stable.