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you coooould....make a private workshop mod of all your stuff? lol
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Aug 31, 2018 16:11
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:you coooould....make a private workshop mod of all your stuff? lol I could. Or I could just copy the text file back and forth (though in this case I can't because my laptop is now on the other side of the country). But it would be nice if there was a cloud save option.
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Aug 31, 2018 17:28
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Kaal posted:I could. Or I could just copy the text file back and forth (though in this case I can't because my laptop is now on the other side of the country). But it would be nice if there was a cloud save option. You could sync the file using googledrive or dropbox.
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Aug 31, 2018 17:42
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pixaal posted:You could sync the file using googledrive or dropbox. Oh absolutely, the only issue is that I'd need someone to log onto the laptop to do that for me, and it's in storage after the switch. In the big scheme of things it's no big deal, and I'll be headed back that way in a few months anyway, but it did make me think of how the issue could have been avoided.
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Aug 31, 2018 19:45
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You know, since Stellaris features a lot of different societies, shouldn't there be a variety of crime too? Like in a fanatic militarist society, neglecting militia training would be a severe crime, while fanatic pacifists might consider private ownership of firearms to be proof you're planning to murder someone. Spiritualists might charge someone with desecrating a holy place, while authoritarian spiritualists would consider blasphemy to be a grave sin and a grave crime. Egalitarian materialists might have trouble with unethical experiments, while authoritarian materialists are more concerned with unauthorized experiments. And so on.
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Aug 31, 2018 20:34
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I don't think we're going to get specific details on what the crimes being committed are.
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Aug 31, 2018 20:38
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Strudel Man posted:I don't think we're going to get specific details on what the crimes being committed are.
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Aug 31, 2018 20:48
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Eiba posted:We were told there would be crime events. Having some of them be flavored by ethics isn't a bad idea.
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Aug 31, 2018 20:53
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The problem with having synths and droids at the same time is that is a metagame solution to a problem we are only aware because we are players. Improving only the most pampered computers in the nicest places in case they become self-aware doesn't make sense in-game because you want to make sure the AI running the gigantic mines is using the latest software update. IRL we deal with legacy computer systems because of logistics, not because we are afraid they'll turn rogue on us. On the other hand, I do see the appeal of having robo-capitalists being dicks to their roombas so I'm proposing a two-pronged solution: 1. First is that droid pops flip to synths over time and droids experience production maluses after synths are discovered, this represents having to deal and update legacy systems. 2. Tying synth happiness to something different than luxury goods/amenities; maybe refined materials?
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Aug 31, 2018 22:07
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I don't really agree. Synths vs droids comes along with increased performance, but I think it's meant to be explicit that the major change is self-awareness, and that people in the setting know it. It's no big stretch not to want to send self-aware creatures to slave away in the mines when more traditionally robotic workers would function nearly as well.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:11
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Strudel Man posted:I don't really agree. Synths vs droids comes along with increased performance, but I think it's meant to be explicit that the major change is self-awareness, and that people in the setting know it. It's no big stretch not to want to send self-aware creatures to slave away in the mines when more traditionally robotic workers would function nearly as well. But self-awareness only comes after the fact. Even if we understand robot pops as metalic anthropomorphic individuals and not systems, they would get mad if the organics arbitrarily refrain from giving the other robot men sapience because is not convenient for them. So yeah, maybe Wiz should allow that but if it generates a lot of robot crime 
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Aug 31, 2018 23:28
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Because of inherent structural quirks in positronic computing architecture, sapience behaves almost like a computer virus and once you have one true sapient plugged into the network all other nodes rapidly become sapient as well, so it's all or nothing. Problem solved.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:30
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Strudel Man posted:Hm, that's right, I briefly forgot about that. That would be indeed be neat. Also the specific crime job your pops take should be as variable as any other job? Crazycryodude posted:Because of inherent structural quirks in positronic computing architecture, sapience behaves almost like a computer virus and once you have one true sapient plugged into the network all other nodes rapidly become sapient as well, so it's all or nothing. Problem solved. Though that should still be limited by the processing power of the machine, as darkly entertaining as the prospect of all the welding arms in the space car factory screaming internally forever, might be. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:36 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 23:32
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I guess, but both of those things feel like grasping at straws to explain a false dilemma being shoved into our hands for no real reason. Just because AI exists doesn't mean we have to shove it into every single machine in existence, and as Strudel Man pointed out, there are pretty good reasons for why we wouldn't want to.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:34
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OwlFancier posted:Also the specific crime job your pops take should be as variable as any other job? Pretty sure crime jobs are just gonna be "Criminal: -2 minerals/energy, -0.5 stability". No real need to get any more granular than that.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:35
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Crazycryodude posted:Pretty sure crime jobs are just gonna be "Criminal: -2 minerals/energy, -0.5 stability". No real need to get any more granular than that. Why not? Why can't you have whole different types of criminal who do different kinds of crime in different societies? So agrarian societies might have people who cause crop failure. Communist societies might have people trying to hoard minerals but who produce money in the process, while reducing stability. Capitalist societies can have people who smash up money producing industry and create massive amounts of stability loss. Mechanizing societies might have luddites who obstruct robot assembly. Lots of neat options there, no need to limit it?
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Aug 31, 2018 23:39
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Pacho posted:The problem with having synths and droids at the same time is that is a metagame solution to a problem we are only aware because we are players. Improving only the most pampered computers in the nicest places in case they become self-aware doesn't make sense in-game because you want to make sure the AI running the gigantic mines is using the latest software update. IRL we deal with legacy computer systems because of logistics, not because we are afraid they'll turn rogue on us. IRL we actually don't have sapient AI, and the thought of such AI going rouge on us is a major staple of science fiction, and there are many prominent computer researchers who are legitimately concerned about it. It's not because of "logistics". There area bunch of things that could be done to push the player in the direction of "spreading" AI sapience. Sort of like the materialist/scientist faction "synth envy": -Unhappy pops if you don't have enough syths and are materialist. -Existing Synths or rough managers surreptitiously upgrading existing droids. -General economic incentives. -Militarist incentives
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Aug 31, 2018 23:40
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OwlFancier posted:Why not? Why can't you have whole different types of criminal who do different kinds of crime in different societies? Developers don't have infinite resources and I highly doubt that creating, coding, and balancing 50 different kinds of criminal with their own special snowflake effects and causes is going to be a priority, for now at least. I'm not saying that it'll never happen given infinite dev time and resources but I doubt we'll see it this update.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:43
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Jabarto posted:I guess, but both of those things feel like grasping at straws to explain a false dilemma being shoved into our hands for no real reason. Just because AI exists doesn't mean we have to shove it into every single machine in existence, and as Strudel Man pointed out, there are pretty good reasons for why we wouldn't want to. Somebody hasn't experienced the luxury of a car built by genuine sapient welding arms, the existential horror experienced by a human-level AI with only three actuators and a tool positoning sensor connecting it to the outside world really enhances the feel of the vehicle, you think you can get bodywork like that without suffering? You can, of course, our competitors use nanocasting to imbue the paint colour and pearlescense at the molecular level, but that's not what you're paying for. You want the genuine article.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:43
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Crazycryodude posted:Developers don't have infinite resources and I highly doubt that creating and balancing 50 different kinds of criminal with their own special snowflake effects and causes is going to be a priority, for now at least. I'm not saying that it'll never happen given infinite dev time and resources but I doubt we'll see it this update. *shrug* seems like it'd be the kind of thing you would whip up in minutes using an XML file? When crime.add if governmenttype = communist then crime.type = liberalism (+2 planet money -4 planet minerals -2 planet stability) If there's already instability related events then adding different crime jobs for them would seem the least difficult part of the work. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 23:45
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Localizing the text so that "poptype=criminal" displays to the player as "Luddite" if they're Materialist or "Heretic" if they're Spiritualist, etc. is about 15 seconds of work, yes. Making distinct criminal job types that are mechanically different from each other, and properly balanced, is not.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:47
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Well they don't need to be balanced they're crime jobs, you're trying to avoid having them and you can't pick which ones you get, and it's alright to have different kinds and different levels of badness in your negative events. The entire game is built around not having identical events happen to you each game. Just avoid taking massive amounts out with any one job. Unless they have to hand hew each set of numbers to attach to a job from the raw codeface with naught but a broken keyboard and an empty coffee thermos to sniff, which I assume they don't given that it's supposed to be highly moddable, throwing in a few different sets of negative numbers to choose from and a name for each shouldn't be difficult?
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Aug 31, 2018 23:51
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They really should be balanced so some ethics don’t become traps that have unrecoverable unfun negative spirals if you happen to let just one crime happen.
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Aug 31, 2018 23:59
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Of course they have to be balanced, if Heretics are 300x worse than Luddites nobody will ever play spiritualists again and you've got a lovely broken game now. Obviously that's hyperbole, but any new mechanical features need to be playtested and tweaked multiple times if you want to have a good game, and that costs time and money that I'm not sure the devs are going to want to spend on this specific expansion when there are a zillion other larger issues that are also being overhauled.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:00
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It's still time you're spending focused on varying That Specific Mechanic rather than, say, literally anything else that devs or players night feel is needed. I'm not a project manager but I can see how that would be a rather unlikely thing for them to pursue. 'I'm sure it'll be plenty easy to mod in as many new criminal jobs as you could possibly want.
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Sep 1, 2018 00:01
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Pacho posted:Even if we understand robot pops as metalic anthropomorphic individuals and not systems, they would get mad if the organics arbitrarily refrain from giving the other robot men sapience because is not convenient for them. ...Why? I don't understand this at all.
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Sep 1, 2018 01:15
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Staltran posted:...Why? I don't understand this at all. I think they mean that if only some portion of your robbits are sparked into life they should be angry that the rest weren't. Edit: nevermind, misunderstood the post. I agree with it though! This could be a fun middle-ground that still gave the decision some weight while letting you keep some of them as mindless drones.
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Sep 1, 2018 01:17
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That assumes robots are incapable of experiencing the emotion of gently caress You Got Mine, which suggests they aren't truly sapient.
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Sep 1, 2018 01:18
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remember that robots are not computer systems, but machine replacements for people; there's obvious benefit to smarter and 'More life-like!' robo-maids, and 'self-diagnosing and problem-solving!' field labor bots.
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Sep 1, 2018 01:26
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Anno posted:I think they mean that if only some portion of your robbits are sparked into life they should be angry that the rest weren't. Yes, this is exactly why I meant. On a roleplaying level it makes sense to have synths pushing for sentinence for all AI and it makes for better gameplay than just having mindless drones you'll never have to worry about ever again
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Sep 1, 2018 01:32
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Are you suggesting that you, the robot factory owner, would voluntarily give the robotariat the ability to formulate class consciousness?? Everybody assumes that the robots would naturally side with each other, but what if the non-sapient expert systems networked and identified the individualist synths as a threat to their ability to perform their tasks? Maybe synths like having mindless robot armies as much as the next person. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Sep 1, 2018 |
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Sep 1, 2018 01:34
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“We need to network our robots together to communicate together to improve efficiency and we need to get it done cheap.” “Well that’s going to be expensive, we’re going to need safety protocols and limit what they can communicate.” “Do I look like I’m made out of credits?! Just get them talking, none of that other stuff, time is money!”
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Sep 1, 2018 01:38
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I've always liked to imagine synths relationship to not-fully conscious droids as similar to a human and their dog. As much as you want the best for the doggo and take care of them, if push comes to shove in regards to survival you're gonna chose a fellow human or yourself over that doggo.
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Sep 1, 2018 01:40
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OwlFancier posted:Are you suggesting that you, the robot factory owner, would voluntarily give the robotariat the ability to formulate class consciousness?? If I don't want to have conscious robots then I'll stop with just the autonomous but not sapient droids. The weird thing is that some people want to minmax synths and droids at the same time with absolutely no drawbacks. Maybe they should just get rid of the difference between droids and synths and make that specialist strata robots might trigger sapience events
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Sep 1, 2018 01:41
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I still think there's a massive amount of room with the new system to incorporate different levels of robot with traits and jobs and crime and unrest, to create a system whereby your society and how it's composed and how it treats its robots and what positions it gives them, results in a lot of different outcomes as far as robot unrest goes. But anything I think would be more interesting than just auto upgrading everything when you research better ones, nor do I see how that's likely to work with the new free willed/non free willed/variable housing needs of pops.
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Sep 1, 2018 01:45
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That could work. Accumulate a couple levels of a more generic "better robots" tech, and you have a chance of an event where they spontaneously start "waking up." Although I guess that wouldn't solve the problem for future robots that you build. Strudel Man fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Sep 1, 2018 |
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Sep 1, 2018 01:46
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I'm sure it's reasonable to have factions of synths that feel either way on the matter.
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Sep 1, 2018 01:49
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OwlFancier posted:I still think there's a massive amount of room with the new system to incorporate different levels of robot with traits and jobs and crime and unrest, to create a system whereby your society and how it's composed and how it treats its robots and what positions it gives them, results in a lot of different outcomes as far as robot unrest goes. Oh, I'm all up for interesting narratives, I just understand when the devs have to come up with a quick fix for the sake of balance because time is limited. Having droids being slaves but better with no drawbacks is not super interesting neither
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Sep 1, 2018 01:52
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Strudel Man posted:That could work. Accumulate a couple levels of a more generic "better robots" tech, and you have a chance of an event where they spontaneously start "waking up." With dynamic clothing for different strata you can easily have the "synth-looking" robots be specialists and "droid-looking" robots be workers. Future robots wouldn't be a problem since pops arrange themselves in jobs and the interesting thing is that "better robot tech" might make them ever more suitable for specialists jobs, more robots specialists trigger more "conciousness" and "rights" events and we can have a pretty organic robot uprising
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Sep 1, 2018 02:01
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Pacho posted:Having droids being slaves but better with no drawbacks is not super interesting neither Why is it bad to have droid slaves be good? They're very good and have no drawbacks when you first get them. It doesn't seem all that overpowered. Why does getting another kind of bonus, synths, need to take away your first bonus? If synths and droids together would be overpowered or unbalanced, maybe make synths not so incredibly good that they can't just be an additional reward for researching another tier of technology. I feel like the gameplay systems aren't there so much for balance as to push an interesting narrative: Keep enslaving your worker bots at your peril, because they're sapient now! You have only yourself to blame for playing god but not respecting the consequences! It's a fine narrative but it's kind of ironic because it ends up precluding other interesting, if slightly less dramatic narratives that we're all clamoring for. Maybe make it so if you have any synths they can co-opt droids to their cause if they're upset with you and give people other reasons to mistreat them. Maybe give the option for robo gladiatorial games where slave synths provide a big amenity boost, or some sort of extreme unethical science where you send synths on one way trips into stars or black holes or the planets core to send back first hand data but die in the process. Or have robot enforcers or soldiers that are more effective because they're treated as disposable/have bombs strapped to them or something. Best of both worlds that way. You can have synths and droids and there's a reason to enslave synths and if they can use all the droid pops to aid their rebellion then there's a logical danger there too. Edit: Maybe have synths give mediocre bonuses by default, but good bonuses if you adopt "respect robot rights/actively integrate synths into society as normal" which would cause organic pops to get uncomfortable, at least at first (stages of integration- first 10 years people think it's really scary, with even materialists not necessarily being 100% on board and spiritualists calling it the end of the world, and if you survive that you reach the stage where people are used to it); or you can get the good bonuses by being extra controlling- installing draconian overrides to make sure they remain subservient. Everyone would be kind of neutral if you didn't pick a side, leaving them independent but somewhat isolated from the rest of society, but you're not really getting that much out of your synths unless you explicitly enslave or integrate them, and deal with the consequences. Eiba fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Sep 1, 2018 |
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Sep 1, 2018 02:22
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