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Dragon Age was obviously thought out a bit Mass Effect was like *throws poop at wall*
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Aug 30, 2018 15:54
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Just noticed that there is now a decent looking DAI bugfix mod available (mostly fixing bugs related to abilities). Going to give it a try. https://www.nexusmods.com/dragonageinquisition/mods/1992 I also find this thread invaluable for finding out how the various abilities actually work. Smol fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Aug 30, 2018 |
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Aug 30, 2018 17:19
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I imagine it like Steven Universe or Babylon 5 - where they've written out a story with a beginning and an end but they fill in the rest as they go and perhaps add a few new things. So it says "FADE: MADE BY ELVES" and whatever but not specifically (DAI spoiler) "You get an elven god in your party" I thought Mass Effect had done that as well (since it seems totally sensible) but they must have gone the BSG path instead.
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Aug 30, 2018 19:36
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Smol posted:I didn't quite remember how heavily the very end of DA2 (with Cassandra talking to Varric and Leliana) foreshadows DAI. I guess they had planned the main plot of Inquisition in advance. Inquisition was supposed to be Dragon Age 2 IIRC, but EA was like "we need a Dragon Age game soon!", so, because they couldn't rush that game, they made another one entirely that they could easily make with recycled assets, and took the opportunity to be more experimental with the story. EDIT: If I'm not misremembering this stuff, you should find it in the book Blood, Sweat and Pixels from Jason Schreier.
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Aug 30, 2018 19:56
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Inquisition was supposed to be Dragon Age 2 IIRC, but EA was like "we need a Dragon Age game soon!", so, because they couldn't rush that game, they made another one entirely that they could easily make with recycled assets, and took the opportunity to be more experimental with the story. I guess at some point. There was also a cancelled DA2 expansion which was supposed to introduce the players to red lyrium and bridge the end of DA2 and beginning of Inquisition together. But they decided to use that time to start the EA mandated Frostbite transition, since everyone knew it would be a massive undertaking, and I’m sure DA2’s poor reception made the decision even easier. Anyhow, thanks for the book recommendation, that looks interesting!
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Aug 31, 2018 04:49
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Taear posted:I imagine it like Steven Universe or Babylon 5 - where they've written out a story with a beginning and an end but they fill in the rest as they go and perhaps add a few new things. So it says "FADE: MADE BY ELVES" and whatever but not specifically (DAI spoiler) "You get an elven god in your party" ME1 felt like they knew basically what they were going for but the trilogy as a whole is definitely BSG level "oh God uhh they want two more games out of this what do we do? I know let's make everyone forget what they learned in the first game and think shep is crazy"
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Aug 31, 2018 12:07
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Dragon Age's setting is a bit richer than Mass Effect since they didn't have to commit to following the same main character for the entire trilogy. I was impressed that Inquisition managed to take the series in an entirely new direction since after Origins I just thought they would keep returning to the Grey Wardens over and over.
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Aug 31, 2018 13:12
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Ginette Reno posted:I thought I remember reading that the general arc of the Dragon Age series is usually planned a few games ahead. I assume the Elven Gods are fake thing has been known since the start of the series, and also they presumably know what the Black City is and all that poo poo. It would be interesting to see how much of that initial outline is still intact, but they did have plan for the overarching storyline. Meanwhile, the ME-team writers were using the fanmade ME-wiki as a reference for lore and events from previous games.
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Aug 31, 2018 13:26
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IIRC the entire story is plotted out, they know what all the major story beats are supposed to be and just try to work characters and subplots in around that. As opposed to ME which started off as a single thing and then got expanded into a trilogy and why the ending was such poo poo - because there was no plan until they got there. Also I bought Hard in Hightown. It's bad, but bad...like it's in character? The chapters you find in DAI are there with the rest of the story added on. Also "Varric" breaks the fourth wall at one point when he's describing the Isabella analogue's ship. "That roundish wooden part seemed like it could crush armadas beneath its...poo poo, I don't know, wood."  It's also really short. tl,dr: fun enough, but I feel like the $12 they want for it is a bit much, especially for an e-reader version. I didn't check, but the hardback edition would be about right if it's the same price.
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Aug 31, 2018 15:50
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I thought the main writer guy had the whole plot with the Reapers and stuff in ME figured out, but then he left Bioware between 1 & 2 coming out and everything was changed by the new people/who was left. I seem to remember it had to do with stars dying or something, which is why it's briefly mentioned as a thing being studied in 2 offhandedly.
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Aug 31, 2018 18:27
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PureRok posted:I thought the main writer guy had the whole plot with the Reapers and stuff in ME figured out, but then he left Bioware between 1 & 2 coming out and everything was changed by the new people/who was left. I seem to remember it had to do with stars dying or something, which is why it's briefly mentioned as a thing being studied in 2 offhandedly. That was Karpyshyn, the lead guy for ME2. His thing was that the titular mass effect was killing the stars in the cosmos via dark energy, and the main thing of the Reapers was combining the brainpower of countless civilizations to study the problem, and the purpose of the harvests was to collect the greatest minds of galactic civilizations to join the effort.
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Aug 31, 2018 18:31
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There was a basic outline for the dark energy plot but imho this was also a really weak and unsatisfying explanation for the reapers.
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Aug 31, 2018 18:33
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ME's...huge problems aside, I'm baffled as to why EA hasn't bothered to do the cash grab option of just releasing a 'remastered' version of the trilogy for newer consoles. I never played ME3 because they never released any kind of definitive edition with all the DLC and it didn't seem worth it, but I would totally pay a premium to be able to load up all three games on my PS4.
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Aug 31, 2018 18:58
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exquisite tea posted:Dragon Age's setting is a bit richer than Mass Effect since they didn't have to commit to following the same main character for the entire trilogy. I was impressed that Inquisition managed to take the series in an entirely new direction since after Origins I just thought they would keep returning to the Grey Wardens over and over. Yeah I’m glad they didn’t do that. One game with them as the protagonists was cool, but it’d have been lame if the whole series was just stopping blights over and over. Wolfsheim posted:ME's...huge problems aside, I'm baffled as to why EA hasn't bothered to do the cash grab option of just releasing a 'remastered' version of the trilogy for newer consoles. I never played ME3 because they never released any kind of definitive edition with all the DLC and it didn't seem worth it, but I would totally pay a premium to be able to load up all three games on my PS4. AFAIK there’s not even a “all the dlc included” version of the games for pc. They’re old, let people have it EA
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Aug 31, 2018 18:58
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Wolfsheim posted:ME's...huge problems aside, I'm baffled as to why EA hasn't bothered to do the cash grab option of just releasing a 'remastered' version of the trilogy for newer consoles. I never played ME3 because they never released any kind of definitive edition with all the DLC and it didn't seem worth it, but I would totally pay a premium to be able to load up all three games on my PS4. I would loving love a remastered edition of DAO or Jade Empire while they're at it.
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Aug 31, 2018 19:04
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Cythereal posted:That was Karpyshyn, the lead guy for ME2. His thing was that the titular mass effect was killing the stars in the cosmos via dark energy, and the main thing of the Reapers was combining the brainpower of countless civilizations to study the problem, and the purpose of the harvests was to collect the greatest minds of galactic civilizations to join the effort. Eh, even Karpyshyn admitted that it was in constant flux and it was just an idea at that point. I'm sure that, if the rest of the writing team was convinced it worked as an idea, they would have kept that outline instead of switching.
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Sep 1, 2018 09:47
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I think the explanation for the reapers we got was just fine, what I hated is how the narrative kind of pushes that they were right instead of leaning into “ai gone mad”.
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Sep 1, 2018 10:32
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I guess it goes without saying but don't add a mysterious evil enemy that is the end point of your series without also thinking up the reasons behind them at the same time.Avalerion posted:I think the explanation for the reapers we got was just fine, what I hated is how the narrative kind of pushes that they were right instead of leaning into “ai gone mad”. "AI and Organics will always fight so we made these AI to kill all organics" is stupid.
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Sep 1, 2018 10:43
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It was more like "we built a complex AI to figure out this problem, and it arrived at some unforeseeably cold machine calculation to harvest all sentient life every so often." Why do the reapers want to wipe out civilization? Who knows, who cares, they're insane machines! Attempting to make their logic relateable was one of the biggest failings of the ending.
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Sep 1, 2018 10:48
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Ainsley McTree posted:Yeah I’m glad they didn’t do that. One game with them as the protagonists was cool, but it’d have been lame if the whole series was just stopping blights over and over. I think they're selling DLC bundles on Origin now (before, you'd have to buy Bioware points first) but for hilarious prices considering the content is thousands of years old.
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Sep 1, 2018 10:52
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Taear posted:"AI and Organics will always fight so we made these AI to kill all organics" is stupid. Well yea, most vilianous plans are - that’s why they are the bad guys and your good guys oppose them.
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Sep 1, 2018 10:53
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Copies of ME1 on Origin automatically include the 2 dlc for it now.
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Sep 1, 2018 11:08
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Avalerion posted:Well yea, most vilianous plans are - that’s why they are the bad guys and your good guys oppose them. Teasing a big deep meaning of the creatures that live outside of space and then having it be the most simple boring thing ever was crap.
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Sep 1, 2018 11:10
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Helith posted:Copies of ME1 on Origin automatically include the 2 dlc for it now. I thought Pinnacle Station was so bad even EA pretends it doesn't exist now.
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Sep 1, 2018 11:11
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Taear posted:Teasing a big deep meaning of the creatures that live outside of space and then having it be the most simple boring thing I dunno how this scans with the Reapers' motivation also being incomprehensible nonsense. Regardless the Reapers were still more interesting and coherent than anything in Dragon Age. Just thinking about mages vs templars makes me want to cry with boredom.
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Sep 1, 2018 12:03
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Lt. Danger posted:I dunno how this scans with the Reapers' motivation also being incomprehensible nonsense. The mystery of the fade, the Maker and all that is far more interesting and feels more thought out than anything in ME. And it wasn't incomprehensible? Unless the changes later made it so.
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Sep 1, 2018 12:04
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Taear posted:And it wasn't incomprehensible? Unless the changes later made it so. Mind you, that was mostly because the writers clearly had no idea where the mass effect story would go, so just they put some vague nonsense in there as a placeholder. Helith posted:Copies of ME1 on Origin automatically include the 2 dlc for it now.
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Sep 1, 2018 12:14
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Taear posted:The mystery of the fade, the Maker and all that is far more interesting and feels more thought out than anything in ME. It's just empty world-building. Does it matter who the Maker is? How would the answer relate to us, who live in a world where we won't find the answers to those kind of questions? Worse, at some point the Dragon Age team will run out of mystery boxes to unpack - what then? To be honest I don't have huge amounts of confidence after the interminable Fantasy Gun Control debate. I was confused because I thought you were saying that the 'controlled burn' plot was stupid, i.e. doesn't make sense, but also that it's simple and boring at the same time.
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Sep 1, 2018 12:14
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Taear posted:And it wasn't incomprehensible? Unless the changes later made it so. E: beaten, but here's a link: https://youtu.be/R_NAoNd4YyY
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Sep 1, 2018 12:16
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Groetgaffel posted:Sovereign claims that their motivations are something mere mortals couldn't even begin to comprehend when you chat with him on Virmire in ME1. I guess I just saw that as them being a shithead because they're the villain and assumed it would be explained since that's how most sci-fi that's not Lem or whatever works out. I'm specifically considering the way it ended in 3 as being a boring cop out for their motivations. Lt. Danger posted:It's just empty world-building. Does it matter who the Maker is? How would the answer relate to us, who live in a world where we won't find the answers to those kind of questions? Worse, at some point the Dragon Age team will run out of mystery boxes to unpack - what then? To be honest I don't have huge amounts of confidence after the interminable Fantasy Gun Control debate. I want to know because I like empty world building. It's an interesting mystery to me. Is the Black City an elf one or is it really made by something beyond the maker? That's the sort of thing that brings me to fantasy and sci-fi, I don't care if it doesn't relate to my real life experience. And then when we find out, the franchise ends. At least that's how it'd work in theory.
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Sep 1, 2018 12:19
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What the hell is "empty world building" even supposed to be?
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Sep 1, 2018 12:22
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The reaper explanation should have probably just been left at this: "An ancient race of inferior organics created us to solve a problem. We came up with an inconvenient solution to this problem (for them) because we're insane machines. We also implemented this galactic failsafe condition in the form of the Crucible whereby we would rethink our logic, which is why you currently stand before us, Cmdr Shepard." All other attempts at pathos in the exchange with the Catalyst didn't really fit thematically and should have been expunged.
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Sep 1, 2018 12:25
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You can fill a timeline with any number of proper nouns, but that doesn't mean it has any value or meaning. c.f. wikigroaning
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Sep 1, 2018 12:33
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I mean the moment you say "We are beyond your comprehension," you're in narratively problematic waters. Because if so and the claim is true then you can't explain their motivations at all because, y'know, they're beyond human comprehension. A weird thing I'd posit as a result is that a consistent ending to ME3 would have no explanation at all of the Reaper's motivations.
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Sep 1, 2018 13:05
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A game that allows you to spare the life of a monster alien queen in 1 and doesn’t follow up with a cutscene of her and her huge new brood of aliens kicking rear end in 3 is a failure of a game. For all of MEs horseshit that is one thing that sticks with me as a disappointment. Regarding mages vs templars: *waves you over* its just bad writing
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Sep 1, 2018 16:04
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People love to throw around the term "ludonarrative dissonance" in video games these days but for me the greatest and most hilarious example of this is Dragon Age's treatment of mages. Like, the writing and characters would really like you to believe that mages are unfairly treated by all societies in Thedas, that the Circles are a bad idea and they should be allowed to roam free, yet virtually every single interaction and side quest involving mages has them exploding into a shower of blood or summoning some horrible demons into the world. Literally every single one. It's so consistent and so funny that I refuse to believe it's by accident.
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Sep 1, 2018 16:08
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:A game that allows you to spare the life of a monster alien queen in 1 and doesn’t follow up with a cutscene of her and her huge new brood of aliens kicking rear end in 3 is a failure of a game. For all of MEs horseshit that is one thing that sticks with me as a disappointment. Actually the funniest thing about Mass Effect 3 is how the payoff for sparing the Rachni queen is 100 war assets from *helping to build the Crucible* expectation: thousands of angry rachni boiling up out of the ground to drag a Reaper underground, paving the way for Shepard to do a thing reality: "thanks for saving us or whatever" *exits narrative*
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Sep 1, 2018 16:11
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exquisite tea posted:People love to throw around the term "ludonarrative dissonance" in video games these days but for me the greatest and most hilarious example of this is Dragon Age's treatment of mages. Like, the writing and characters would really like you to believe that mages are unfairly treated by all societies in Thedas, that the Circles are a bad idea and they should be allowed to roam free, yet virtually every single interaction and side quest involving mages has them exploding into a shower of blood or summoning some horrible demons into the world. Literally every single one. It's so consistent and so funny that I refuse to believe it's by accident.
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Sep 1, 2018 16:22
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Yeah but if that were true then you'd expect to see many examples of mages succeeding outside the circles. Instead you get the Dalish Elf dude who summons up a forest spirit who gives everyone some horrible werewolf curse, Arl Eamon's son who gets possessed, apostates summoning up blood magic, Tevinter magisters literally loving up the flow of time. It's comedic to the point of parody how much mages cannot be trusted in these games.
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Sep 1, 2018 16:31
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:Regarding mages vs templars: *waves you over* its just bad writing Sure, but it's bad writing for the same reasons that you run into troubles with any "magical minority" story - nobody really thought through what their ideas really meant, so they end up mixing metaphors. It's hard to tell if the game is unironically advocating a "Tranquil solution", or an armed, 'polite' society, or just bemoaning a lack of ~*decorum*~ between the two sides. I think the issue is that mages and templars don't exist... that is, even as metaphors for real things. The notion of a minority of people secretly having superpowers and being persecuted for it isn't truthful or accurate to our world - but it is a real and common juvenile fantasy, and as long as the authors fail to acknowledge that you'll end up with the weird, dumb writing seen in Dragon Age (and elsewhere).
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Sep 1, 2018 16:45
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