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As funny as this is, it's becoming complete bullshit that you know when you turn off a WEC race, the result wont actually be the same several hours later
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Aug 19, 2018 23:07
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CactusWeasle posted:As funny as this is, it's becoming complete bullshit that you know when you turn off a WEC race, the result wont actually be the same several hours later This is true of any FIA event though, something always changes post-flag.
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Aug 19, 2018 23:09
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Perhaps if you're fast enough to win a race by 4 laps, don't oval office it off the kerbs at every opportunity? And I'll certainly take this over the Nascar philosophy of "Cheat as much as you like and if we catch you we might fine you. Maybe."
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Aug 20, 2018 08:16
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Same thing happened to Audi in I think it was '15? DQed for ride height infraction after it took 1st or 2nd
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Aug 20, 2018 11:47
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an oddly awful oud posted:Same thing happened to Audi in I think it was '15? DQed for ride height infraction after it took 1st or 2nd 2016 and DQ'd from 1st, I looked it up while reminding myself what the skid block was last night. Also Silverstone as well which makes it funnier.
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Aug 20, 2018 12:02
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I like that Toyota coulda run 5in off the ground and still won
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Aug 20, 2018 16:13
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What exactly happened in IMSA that BMW managed to win with the M8? e: or was it just BoP shenanigans?
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Aug 21, 2018 12:37
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Mostly good driving and strategy, and a track that tends to suit BMW
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Aug 21, 2018 13:41
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MazeOfTzeentch posted:Mostly good driving and strategy, and a track that tends to suit BMW Aka it's too loving huge for anyone to pass it around that track.
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Aug 21, 2018 15:39
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Double posting cause this thread is dead as gently caress. Apparently for Laguna they're taking performance out of the P2 cars now? I mean, I don't like those cars but I feel like the solution isn't taking away from them at this point. Either add some back into DPi or just leave it alone for the rest of the year.
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Aug 31, 2018 00:23
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iwentdoodie posted:Double posting cause this thread is dead as gently caress. They're adding a very small amount of weight and reducing their fuel capacity a bit, while adding fuel to the DPis. The weight increase will probably only have a very minor effect as far as outright pace but the fuel changes will make it so that the LMP2s can't stretch their fuel loads for many extra miles over the DPis like they did at Road America. They also trimmed a little weight off the Mazdas, which is great I guess but the RT24Ps don't seem to be that far off the pace of the rest of the DPi field anymore.
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Aug 31, 2018 02:03
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They have though ensured that you now can't run a WEC spec P2 in IMSA, making the category even more pointless than it already was.
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Aug 31, 2018 09:09
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It's 10kg of lead, and some ping pong balls in the fuel tank, not a brand new chassis and engine, calm your tits. Class is splitting in 2 races anyway and this will all be reverted anyway.
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Aug 31, 2018 13:47
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I remain convinced that the P2 class will comprise of 0 (zero) cars for anything other than Daytona (and maybe Sebring) next year.
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Aug 31, 2018 20:02
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Dudley posted:I remain convinced that the P2 class will comprise of 0 (zero) cars for anything other than Daytona (and maybe Sebring) next year. AFS/PR1 just bought an Oreca 07 to compete in LMP2 for the full season so that's already not the case? MazeOfTzeentch fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 20:08
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MazeOfTzeentch posted:AFS/PR1 just bought an Oreca 07 to compete in LMP2 for the full season so that's already not the case? I don't think they announced that they were running it next year, just that they were using it the remainder of this year and "looking forward" to next year. I don't expect there to be many P2 next year, and I also don't expect DPi to get any impactful speed increases other than the Michelins. Speed costs money and the builders agreed to a speed/cost number. They are already possibly (probably?) losing a manufacturer next year as it is. Cygni fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Aug 31, 2018 |
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Aug 31, 2018 21:18
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It's not super clear from their statement, the IMSA part of the 2019 plans isn't in the direct quote.quote:Oergel and team co-owner Ray Mathiasen said the chassis switch has been made with an eye to 2019, as it plans to contest the newly formed LMP2 category, which will be Pro-Am enforced. But even if the plan was 2019 we're already down them and CORE from this year's full timers and that doesn't make a class. PC was dirt cheap to run and it still wasn't attractive as a shadow class so I can't see P2 being.
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Aug 31, 2018 21:58
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Is a big P2 field really critical if DPi lures in enough privateer teams in '19 and '20? Next year, if all goes well, we'll have Wayne Taylor Racing, 2x Action Express, 2x JDC-Miller Motorsports, Juncos, Spirit of Daytona, 2x Acura Penske, 2x Mazda Joest, 2x Nissan ESM. That's 13 cars. Hardly a sign of poor health even if P2s are scarce in non-NAEC races. e: Obviously they're not in the same class next year, but if DPi is thriving as a class, I don't see whether really matters if P2 has many entrants in most races or not. Expanding the DPi class at P2's expense is not a bad thing an oddly awful oud fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Sep 1, 2018 |
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Sep 1, 2018 01:59
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I think the intention was to have DPi be the top class and P2 replace the PC class. Obviously it didn't work out like that until now.
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Sep 1, 2018 02:02
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iospace posted:I think the intention was to have DPi be the top class and P2 replace the PC class. Obviously it didn't work out like that until now. I don't know if that was the intention but it's a good idea. It still offers a low barrier to entry for smaller or less experienced teams but having European squads showing up for the NAEC races will help keep a minimum standard of performance and quality and prevent it from being a crash-filled shitshow like PC turned into.
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Sep 1, 2018 02:11
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The problem with an all DPi class is it is fully dependent on manufacturer marketing spending. There are two sources of money by which sportscar racing exists: manufacturer marketing money, and rich assholes named Thad Everyman who got rich scamming down syndrome babies or murdering nuns or whatever. Manufacturer money spikes and crashes, but rich rear end in a top hat money is a consistent, lower value stream that truly keeps sportscar racing alive. When you create classes that excluded rich assholes, they spike with the manufacturer money spike, and they go tits up (or get comically boring) when the money crashes. Thats the never ending sportscar cycle. We are in a crazy long period of growth and americans keep buying high profit margin trucks and SUVs, but pretty much everyone expects the crash any day now. Kicking privateers out of the top class and making it manufacturer only is rolling the dice that GM, a company that 10 years ago was bankrupt, doesnt notice that they are spending tons of money directly supporting half of the proto grid when nobody actually watches sportscar racing. Besides, it also limits the fun crossovers (DragonSpeed and United Autosports already said they arent interested in running in IMSA if its not for the overall win), limits the variety of car types on track, and makes the whole class more expensive for no on track reason.
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Sep 1, 2018 02:37
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iospace posted:I think the intention was to have DPi be the top class and P2 replace the PC class. Obviously it didn't work out like that until now. That was blown all to hell when WEC revised the rules to allow privateer LMP2s to try and close up to Manufacturer LMP1-Hs last year.
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Sep 1, 2018 02:40
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Cygni posted:The problem with an all DPi class is it is fully dependent on manufacturer marketing spending. Nobody's kicking the privateers out. The privateers are just buying cars built by Cadillac instead of Oreca next year. And the GM factory money can't be all that substantial or Spirit of Daytona wouldn't have had to skip half the races this year. And United Autosports is looking on coming back to IMSA in 2020 with a DPi. The whole killer feature of DPi is that the cost is relatively low compared to most factory programs. It's cheap enough that Mazda can play despite drawing their budget from the petty cash box in Irvine and ESM can run a "factory" program without any actual backing from Nissan. Privateers can absolutely compete in DPi as it currently exists. The boom-bust cycle is real but we're not there yet. Enjoy it while it lasts.
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Sep 1, 2018 03:50
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Also attendance is definitely up, for whatever that's worth. I have no idea on TV ratings, but those are going to be abysmal no matter what given how loving hard they make it to watch combined with no one watching TV anymore.
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Sep 1, 2018 03:59
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And while dragonspeed and United autosports aren't interested in P2 anymore, there's a healthy crop of Pro-Am teams that are interested in IMSA. Whether that is just for the Florida rounds or something more? I'm trying not to count my chickens before we see commitments and entry lists. It only takes 2 cars to race and we've already ostensibly got 2 in PR1 and Core. The auto invite to Le Mans with the Truman trophy is a big draw for P2s.
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Sep 1, 2018 03:59
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an oddly awful oud posted:Nobody's kicking the privateers out. The privateers are just buying cars built by Cadillac instead of Oreca next year. And the GM factory money can't be all that substantial or Spirit of Daytona wouldn't have had to skip half the races this year. And United Autosports is looking on coming back to IMSA in 2020 with a DPi. Yeah, it seems like the DPi format has cut the costs down to be anywhere from $5-10 million. Removing chassis development and production costs and putting most of that on something which is cost-capped seems to have worked quite well. By comparison, a WEC P1 program was running hundreds of millions in development and running costs. If they enforce that the P2 teams have to be pro/am, that may actually bring some customers in. It'll definitely bring more of the European WEC/ELMS guys out, because you won't have a United Autosport loading up a P2 with F1 drivers on their holiday jollies, and they may actually be able to win a 24-hour race (and a Rolex). It's tougher as full-season proposition simply because the DPis aren't much more running-cost wise. The one change I would make to the whole ecosystem is instead of capping the manufacturers, they should instead license them out to match market needs. So the Riley-Multimatic would go away (grandfathering in for Mazda perhaps) but it would allow a Ginetta or somebody else to take their slot and serve the privateers.
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Sep 1, 2018 04:16
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an oddly awful oud posted:Nobody's kicking the privateers out. The privateers are just buying cars built by Cadillac instead of Oreca next year. And the GM factory money can't be all that substantial or Spirit of Daytona wouldn't have had to skip half the races this year. And United Autosports is looking on coming back to IMSA in 2020 with a DPi. The issue is that GM is subsidizing the entire program and the cars are explicitly not for sale to everyone. The engines are all leased, as is the Cadillac specific bodywork on the Dallara, and all the teams running them are "factory partners". If GM were to pull out, those cars arent even available. To add to the problems, Mazda and Acura have explicitly said that their cars aren't for sale. There are no requirements in the spec that anybody actually sell their DPis, as all the privateers found out the hard way the last few years. The Nissan is finally available theoretically next year, but nobody wants to run the Ligier right now and their anchor team may be closing up shop. So unpopular or low tier privateers really are completely locked out. DPi is cheap for big leagues racing, for sure, but its significantly more expensive than P2 by a big margin. Thats rough, and its already a bit outside of the box of what the manufacturers wanted to pay when they signed up. I guess my point is that this whole house of cards is tenuous when you rely on only manufacturers and it can fold up REAL fast with just a few little missteps, as seen in LMP1. Letting P2 play was insurance against that collapse, and it was insurance against the manufacturers influence as a whole. The wagon is now 100% hitched to GM's good graces, and imo, IMSA has shown that they aren't as savvy at dealing with manufacturer politicking as I was hoping a NASCAR org would be.
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Sep 1, 2018 04:43
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Yeah if I were handling the class, in hindsight, probably would have not allowed damper development in the DPis, and mandate that a customer must be able to buy DPis from a manufacturer, no exclusivity. Then the BoP would have likely been more effective, especially on American tracks, which seem to be more bumpy, and you'd have a rich varied grid. As it stands, I'm okay with this solution, if they can use the Le Mans invite to lure enough teams in to make the class viable.
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Sep 1, 2018 05:15
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If you're a team looking for a P2 invite to Le Mans, why would you bother? Your car is going to be gimped in a way it won't in WEC which means you won't have the body of data on how your car performs at that level, your drivers are going to be bottom feeders (if they go through with the Pro/Am designation) or you're going to buy a team for one race only and hope there's enough gelatin in the mix and your core drivers don't get pissy and look for other opportunities and you still won't have the advantage of getting to know the field and drivers. I mean, you can do what G-drive did and sell the ride to another team and let them deal with the headache, but why would you bother? If you're after Sage Karam-tier pay drivers, sure. But it's going to turn into a farce. It's a lose-lose for IMSA, but it's one they can comfortably survive and it's one they had to make after the FIA gave the P2s an extra 150hp to play with last year.
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Sep 1, 2018 05:22
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Gimped how? There's no indication that the additional weight and fuel capacity restrictions added for this race are going to be there for next season, as the DPIs are going to be let off the chain and decoupled from the performance of the P2s, so they won't have to peg the P2s back. Even more so, all the cars on the grid will be on Michelin tires, presumably the same that ELMS and WEC have available. Heck, not being the top class in IMSA might give it more draw for an aspiring P2 team because they'll have to learn to negotiate both faster and slower traffic in a P2 just like in WEC, where in ELMS, the P2s are top dog. e:P2s are Pro-Am teams in literally everywhere else except IMSA, so I don't get how a gentleman driver is some sort of hindrance or inconvenience. It's the nature of the class. MazeOfTzeentch fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Sep 1, 2018 |
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Sep 1, 2018 05:25
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MazeOfTzeentch posted:Yeah if I were handling the class, in hindsight, probably would have not allowed damper development in the DPis, and mandate that a customer must be able to buy DPis from a manufacturer, no exclusivity. Then the BoP would have likely been more effective, especially on American tracks, which seem to be more bumpy, and you'd have a rich varied grid. Yeah, I agree with you on both points. Oh well, its sportscar racing, i guess i should just relax and enjoy it while its fun, which it definitely is in IMSA right now.
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Sep 1, 2018 05:48
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an oddly awful oud posted:Is a big P2 field really critical if DPi lures in enough privateer teams in '19 and '20? Next year, if all goes well, we'll have Wayne Taylor Racing, 2x Action Express, 2x JDC-Miller Motorsports, Juncos, Spirit of Daytona, 2x Acura Penske, 2x Mazda Joest, 2x Nissan ESM. That's 13 cars. Hardly a sign of poor health even if P2s are scarce in non-NAEC races. It's not at all, I actually wish they'd had the courage to go all in just say "P2 will be abolished". I think market forces will do the job for them.
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Sep 1, 2018 10:30
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Dudley posted:It's not at all, I actually wish they'd had the courage to go all in just say "P2 will be abolished". I think market forces will do the job for them. It might, but it might be a success as its own class. It'll offer a middle step for Prototype-style racing for teams coming out of the existing LMP3 Prototype Challenge feeder series, or Michelin Pilot Challenge teams who want to move up but not go into GTD. There might be a demand for that within the greater IMSA framework. They may as well try and find out before pulling the plug entirely.
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Sep 1, 2018 14:02
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Dudley posted:It's not at all, I actually wish they'd had the courage to go all in just say "P2 will be abolished". I think market forces will do the job for them. It's incredibly obvious they just want their cake and to eat it too, to have the WEC P2s involved as an option in the series but also to allow the DPis to remove all of the anchors they've collected since the start of the 2017 season.
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Sep 1, 2018 14:23
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MazeOfTzeentch posted:Gimped how? There's no indication that the additional weight and fuel capacity restrictions added for this race are going to be there for next season, as the DPIs are going to be let off the chain and decoupled from the performance of the P2s, so they won't have to peg the P2s back. Everything IMSA is bad and everything ACO is great according to him.
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Sep 1, 2018 15:12
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drgitlin posted:Everything IMSA is bad and everything ACO is great according to him. Not quite. IMSA does an amazing job at what it does, and I'm a fan of the racing. I don't like GM or Ford so watching Caddy win all the things was not remotely interesting, but Acura seem to be trying. The ACO in contrast makes *many, many* gently caress ups and is borderline incompetent (they'd be incompetent but every now and then the FIA forces them to do something that's a good idea). LMP1Hy was a miniature golden age that I'm so very sad will never get beyond it's own shadow (Toyota, why'd you have to gently caress up so much...), and by and large global endurance racing (by which I mean "a global endurance racing series") has been in a death spiral ever since Bernie convinced the FIA to kill WSC by forcing them onto F1 engines (it made so much sense for the FIA at the time too...). I don't genuinely believe IMSA and DPi are set to fix the problems WEC has had and continues to have largely because I don't believe that the concept of "cut price performance racing" is compatible with "F1... I'M COMIN' FOR YA! <shotguns can of Heineken>". 10 seconds around Spa. 10. loving. Seconds. loving Audi.
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Sep 1, 2018 16:16
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https://youtu.be/h485P3QNDSk WC at Watkins Glen today.
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Sep 1, 2018 17:38
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Schlesische posted:Not quite. IMSA does an amazing job at what it does, and I'm a fan of the racing. I don't like GM or Ford so watching Caddy win all the things was not remotely interesting, but Acura seem to be trying. Acura has Team Penske, so they'll be there Schlesische posted:The ACO in contrast makes *many, many* gently caress ups and is borderline incompetent (they'd be incompetent but every now and then the FIA forces them to do something that's a good idea). LMP1Hy was a miniature golden age that I'm so very sad will never get beyond it's own shadow (Toyota, why'd you have to gently caress up so much...), and by and large global endurance racing (by which I mean "a global endurance racing series") has been in a death spiral ever since Bernie convinced the FIA to kill WSC by forcing them onto F1 engines (it made so much sense for the FIA at the time too...). "The ACO fucks up a lot (except when the FIA makes it do things)" "...global sportscar racing has been in decline since the FIA hosed them up" ...huh. also, LMP1H died because of Volkswagen's greed and incompetence leading to Dieselgate. Period, the end. Schlesische posted:I don't genuinely believe IMSA and DPi are set to fix the problems WEC has had and continues to have largely because I don't believe that the concept of "cut price performance racing" is compatible with "F1... I'M COMIN' FOR YA! <shotguns can of Heineken>". Which is why DPi is the Kirkland's Signature version of the rules the ACO looks to adopt for a few years. They'll both be limited hybrids with factory support and styling that jives with the manufacturers' road cars, but IMSA will be building the DPis off of P2 chassis instead. The FIA WEC will be fine, there's support from privateers in the P2 and GTE-Am ranks, there's support from manufacturers for GTE Pro, and it sounds like they'll be able to get at least three manufacturers for whatever replaces LMP1 (I would guess Toyota, McLaren, and one more). There's a chance to grow still too.
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Sep 2, 2018 04:05
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Super Trofeo at Road America is on CBS Sports in 15 minutes if you get that (I don't)
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Sep 2, 2018 16:45
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Let's see how things are going at the Nurburgri- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qAtkf2jAZc 
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Sep 2, 2018 19:27
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