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It isn't that Luke regressed; rather, it is that he saw that Luke was not willing to live up to his hopes. He could tell that as soon as Luke attempted suicide, which left him so despondent that he couldn't even muster up the rage to summarily execute his subordinates.
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Sep 2, 2018 04:33
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jivjov posted:In what universe is Adam Driver not an incredibly good looking guy? He's in an industry where most people will compare him to other blockbuster leading men. Just compare him to some of his costars: John David Washington, Channing Tatum, Oscar Isaac, John Boyega, and Andrew Garfield are closer to what's commonly accepted as Movie Star Handsome, so in comparison to them he's considered less good-looking. Also he hasn't really found a look that suits his face.
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Sep 2, 2018 04:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Vader’s ghost is the Holy Spirit. Edit: Palpatine is John the Baptist? EDIT #1a: poo poo, no, Maul is. Edit #2: Count Dooku was Barabbas? Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Sep 2, 2018 |
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Sep 2, 2018 04:53
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General Grievous is Mary Magdelene.
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Sep 2, 2018 05:02
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What ever happened to the three wise men? Why didn't they ever come back as force ghosts to advise jesus? And what about the gold, frankenstein and myrrh? How come those never comeback up? Bad writing.
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Sep 2, 2018 05:07
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The cloning aliens are obviously the cloning aliens in the bible. You know, the ones that cloned Solomon.
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Sep 2, 2018 05:08
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NotJustANumber99 posted:What ever happened to the three wise men? Why didn't they ever come back as force ghosts to advise jesus? And what about the gold, frankenstein and myrrh? How come those never comeback up? Bad writing. Frankenstein was the perfume trader actually
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Sep 2, 2018 05:10
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Post for this page.
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Sep 2, 2018 05:26
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The MSJ posted:Post for this page. This is canon btw. Pablo Hidalgo told me so himself
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Sep 2, 2018 05:33
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Brother Entropy posted:actually i have this placemat that shows anakin and vader existing at the same time, therefore That’s all well and good but Anakin and Vader are still the same person. If I commit some evil act and in the process am afflicted with a disability I don’t magically become a different person.
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Sep 2, 2018 05:41
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Just LOL if you ever believed they were farming water out there. On a planet like Jakku, the endless despair and poverty leads to a lot of drug use.
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Sep 2, 2018 05:44
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sponges posted:That’s all well and good but Anakin and Vader are still the same person. If I commit some evil act and in the process am afflicted with a disability I don’t magically become a different person. This is what sith lords actually believe
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Sep 2, 2018 05:53
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sponges posted:That’s all well and good but Anakin and Vader are still the same person. If I commit some evil act and in the process am afflicted with a disability I don’t magically become a different person. I can't help think your underselling his ordeal a small amount.
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Sep 2, 2018 05:57
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Schwarzwald posted:I can't help think your underselling his ordeal a small amount. Try and make a real world parelell. If some poor sap suffered horrific burns would he literally be a different person? sponges fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Sep 2, 2018 |
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Sep 2, 2018 06:01
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I think it would have been a lot better if Vader had appeared as a Force Ghost, in his armor, at the end of ROTJ. He could stand to the side just shaking his head disapprovingly, at the Yoda/Ben/Anakin Force Ghosts as they give Luke the approving nods. He could also have appeared to Kylo Ren doing the same thing. Just standing there with his arms crossed, shaking his head while Kylo throws his various tantrums
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Sep 2, 2018 06:13
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Cnut the Great posted:Vader isn't a leftist. He's an authoritarian. He's the ultimate repressive father figure. He wants to control everything and make it the way he wants it to be. That's why he slaughters the Sand People. Their entire cultural existence is getting in the way of what he perceives to be justice. He commits a genocidal act because of authoritarian ideological tendencies informing an impulsive, emotion-driven response to a highly traumatic event. The Republic reacts the same way when one of their own is taken hostage by an opposing political faction, impulsively foisting authoritarian powers upon the Chancellor and launching a full-scale war in a frenzy of fear. They're parallel stories. Welcome back how was it doing time as a flamer sponges posted:Try and make a real world parelell. If some poor sap suffered horrific burns would he literally be a different person? I dunno ask phineas gage Bongo Bill posted:It isn't that Luke regressed; rather, it is that he saw that Luke was not willing to live up to his hopes. He could tell that as soon as Luke attempted suicide, which left him so despondent that he couldn't even muster up the rage to summarily execute his subordinates. I finally mustered up the time to give 4-5-6 another go and yeah. I think SMG is slightly too generous to Vader, he’s confused and uncertain in 5, knows where he wants to end up but can’t stop conceiving of the route as ruthless authoritarianism. His hope above all is that Luke will show him the way and that defeated slump after Luke jumps is the best acting in the OT
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Sep 2, 2018 06:17
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sponges posted:Try and make a real world parelell. If some poor sap suffered horrific burns would he literally be a different person? Vader is a product of not only incredible psychological trauma but extensive cybernetic enhancement. The imagery of the creation scene is a mix of Frankenstein and Dr. Octopus from Spiderman 2. Vader is not only born from a collection of dead parts but is now in an uneasy relationship with ‘his’ robotic limbs. Moreover, the difference between Anakin and Vader is directly analogous to the difference between Yahweh and Jesus Christ. (It’s odd that Star Wars fans are so disparaging to the literal incarnation of The Force.)
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Sep 2, 2018 08:02
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Anakin was ceremonially given a new name when he gave up his allegiance to the Jedi Order, and then he was traumatically given a new body when he lost the one person he hoped to bring with him into his new position. He destroyed the culture that he had defined himself in relation to and the institution that supported it, and he lost everyone he loved. Everyone that remained who knew who Anakin Skywalker even was became his enemy, except for his new master, whose interest in him as a slave exceeded his interest in him as a person. All the ties to his prior life were severed in a way that made memories of that time painful. This is why he assumed the identity of Darth Vader fully - he had no desire to continue being Anakin Skywalker. None of the things that Anakin defined himself by were still around, so it's as though Anakin himself died on Mustafar and a new being was made from his remains. The imagery, as mentioned, supports this. (It did not have to be so; Count Dooku was given a new name and a new rank, but he used "Darth Tyranus" as an alter ego for his various plots, rather than as an altogether new identity. Dooku's ambitions remained the same, and he still had much of his old life insofar as he was still a Count. His parting from the Jedi Order was not violent and he had hope of persuading some Jedi to follow him.)
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Sep 2, 2018 08:46
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Vader is a product of not only incredible psychological trauma but extensive cybernetic enhancement. The imagery of the creation scene is a mix of Frankenstein and Dr. Octopus from Spiderman 2. Vader is not only born from a collection of dead parts but is now in an uneasy relationship with ‘his’ robotic limbs. The first thing that we see from Anakin is him ask about Padme and cry out in regret over her death. I'm on board with the notion that Vader and Anakin are different people, but I'm not sure if that switch is ever clear. The moment depicts Vader not born form ideology or sacrifice, but from Anakin just no longer having anything to really live for besides taking out his aggression on the universe. Also, you're operating with like a Wikipedia understanding of Christianity on this one. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Sep 2, 2018 |
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Sep 2, 2018 12:50
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Anakin finally dies, and Vader is truly born, when he hears of Padme's death. That's the analogous "lightning" moment as Palpatine laughs exultantly - he might as well be saying "It's alive!"
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Sep 2, 2018 13:58
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Bongo Bill posted:Anakin was ceremonially given a new name when he gave up his allegiance to the Jedi Order, and then he was traumatically given a new body when he lost the one person he hoped to bring with him into his new position. He destroyed the culture that he had defined himself in relation to and the institution that supported it, and he lost everyone he loved. Everyone that remained who knew who Anakin Skywalker even was became his enemy, except for his new master, whose interest in him as a slave exceeded his interest in him as a person. All the ties to his prior life were severed in a way that made memories of that time painful. This is why he assumed the identity of Darth Vader fully - he had no desire to continue being Anakin Skywalker. None of the things that Anakin defined himself by were still around, so it's as though Anakin himself died on Mustafar and a new being was made from his remains. The imagery, as mentioned, supports this. Yeah... but still the same person.
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Sep 2, 2018 14:12
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sponges posted:Yeah... but still the same person. i guess we know where you come down on the ship of theseus huh?
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Sep 2, 2018 14:18
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The ship of Vader has the middle decks of the USS Anakin and also the masts. Well maybe not one mast.
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Sep 2, 2018 14:24
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sponges posted:Yeah... but still the same person. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader are clearly different people otherwise why would they have different names as you can see on this placemat, furthermore,
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Sep 2, 2018 14:38
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There was a Star Wars comic from 1978 or so which was personally signed off on by George Lucas which had a story about Obi-Wan going on a mission with his two apprentices, Luke's father and Darth Vader, and therefore
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Sep 2, 2018 14:54
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It's like RoboCop: Alex Murphy and RoboCop may share physical parts, but they are separate. RoboCop has to uncover and integrate the parts of Murphy that still remain in his memory, but that doesn't mean he turns back into Murphy, but that RoboCop and Murphy become a new being, a synthesis.
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Sep 2, 2018 14:54
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turn left hillary!! noo posted:Anakin finally dies, and Vader is truly born, when he hears of Padme's death. That's the analogous "lightning" moment as Palpatine laughs exultantly - he might as well be saying "It's alive!" I think we're also talking about the moment from Frankenstein more from memory than what actually happens in the film. The it's alive moment is declaration of happiness from someone who others see as having done something monstrous. Regardless, Frankenstein is happy in the moment. Palpatine has a different reaction. As much as the scene is mocked for the "No!" There is some great acting on the Emperor. There is something almost warm and fatherly about him when he asks Vader if he can hear him, but you can see him recoil a bit when he hears about Padme. It reads to me as concern that Vader is still Anakin. I do think you're right that the key moment is when he gets him to take on responsibility for Padme's death, but once again, it's really different from the "It's alive" moment. Frankenstein's declaration is out of accomplishment and love. Palpatine gives a sinister smile behind Vader. In his mind, he has snuffed out Anakin and fully corrupted him, but he's wrong. Literally the second that Vader finds out that one of his kids is alive, he's willing to kill the Emperor. I think this is getting a bit circular because I think this train of thought is what SMG arguing against. To be clear, I don't think anyone is trying to claim that ROTS is trying to be directly analogous to the Frankenstein film, but using the events of that film to justify reads on ROTS isn't really fruitful.
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Sep 2, 2018 14:56
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The moment in which you are born again, that is the moment you accept that you are locked into the destructive patterns which have destroyed everything you cared about and cannot change. Vader is a different person who happens to behave just like the person we saw Anakin become over the course of two films.
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Sep 2, 2018 15:02
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I Before E posted:It's like RoboCop: Alex Murphy and RoboCop may share physical parts, but they are separate. RoboCop has to uncover and integrate the parts of Murphy that still remain in his memory, but that doesn't mean he turns back into Murphy, but that RoboCop and Murphy become a new being, a synthesis. Pretty much this, another example would be the Major from Ghost in the Shell(2017) being a distinct and different character from Motoko - the woman who was made into the Major. brawleh fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Sep 2, 2018 |
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Sep 2, 2018 15:45
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I wonder if we'll see Vader's force ghost in Episode 9.
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Sep 2, 2018 15:55
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I don't think any of the prequel actors will show up in the ST as their characters. I really do think Disney's trying to keep the slate as clean as possible for some prequel do-over using the time travel stuff from the EU they've introduced. Even if it really feels like Kylo Ren's whole thing demands a chat with Hayden Christensen's Anakin. I remember the rumors that he'd be in TLJ after all the appearances he had at SW cons and whatever.
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Sep 2, 2018 16:13
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I don't think any of the prequel actors will show up in the ST as their characters. I really do think Disney's trying to keep the slate as clean as possible for some prequel do-over using the time travel stuff from the EU they've introduced. They have time travel in the EU now?
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Sep 2, 2018 16:45
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They had time travel in the old EU too, and if there's one thing we can rely on it's them repeating every old EU mistake for no reason
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Sep 2, 2018 16:50
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PostNouveau posted:They have time travel in the EU now? Jacen could time travel in the old EU I think—it had some sort of dorky name like Time Walking or Flow Walking or something like that
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Sep 2, 2018 17:02
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Waffles Inc. posted:Jacen could time travel in the old EU I think—it had some sort of dorky name like Time Walking or Flow Walking or something like that Oh right, force people were just x-men in the EU
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Sep 2, 2018 17:13
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There is time travel in the Rebels animated series.
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Sep 2, 2018 17:33
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looking to the EU to predict what the movies will do is kind of a nonsense idea doubly so when the movies clearly don't have any overarching plan
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Sep 2, 2018 17:46
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sponges posted:Yeah... but still the same person. "Identity" is a really overloaded term. It is true that there is continuity of consciousness: there is just one "I" in this case, one single mind, one set of experiences and memories. I think this is what you refer to. In terms of "What does it mean to be Anakin Skywalker," though, everything that makes him him ceases to apply, very suddenly. He did not medically die but his entire way-of-life ended abruptly and discontinuously. Part of this was wishful thinking on his part - it hurts less to insist there's no connection between the slave boy from Tatooine and the Emperor's enforcer. And as long as there was no one else around him to gainsay him, nobody could say they're the same person.
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Sep 2, 2018 17:59
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Anakin is Dick Whitman and Darth Vader is when he becomes Heisenberg.
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Sep 2, 2018 18:02
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Brother Entropy posted:looking to the EU to predict what the movies will do is kind of a nonsense idea The old EU was a long list of lazy half-assed ideas thrown out by people with no overarching plan, using it to predict the new list of lazy half-assed ideas thrown out by people with no overarching plan seems pretty reasonable
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Sep 2, 2018 18:12
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