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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Putting myself in their shoes I wouldn't be willing to suffer traitors either, but I don't know enough to know if they're actually justified. You seriously don't think that treating dissent as treason had anything at all to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union then?
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Sep 3, 2018 20:56
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Mr. Lobe posted:I think Marx said something about revolutionary struggles being ugly things in a way that is really eloquent in that way he does some times, but I can't really recall enough of it to be able to google it Do you mean Engels? https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough? I'd like to think that never extends to war crimes directly, even if I have fall back of utilitarian concerns about hardening the resolve of the opposition though. Certainly I'd say any scorched earth strategies should be beyond the pale of any socialist revolution given any other choice.
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Sep 3, 2018 21:01
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namesake posted:Do you mean Engels? oh that explains why I wasn't able to google it lol
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Sep 3, 2018 21:14
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I was reading this piece about commune building in Rojava and havin' a lot of thoughts https://www.opendemocracy.net/north-africa-west-asia/cihad-hammy/first-commune-in-kobane-construction-and-challenges Mostly about how hopeless I feel as a first worlder who is so beholden to a ridiculous standard of living that only a massive system of exploitation and death/misery can provide it to me. I don't know what percent of the resurgent left if any are actually prepared for the diminishing material conditions that'll occur as a pretext to and then reckoning with capitalism. "Champagne socialism" is an ugly joke to me, especially when climate change is on the table as a threat to human existence. I hate how I've been programmed to be unable to enjoy simple pleasures, quiet serene spaces, to not respect nature, be grateful for a day's bread and the people who provide it, to not understand how my means of living are provided for me, to not be able to create them myself if necessary. The parts of Marx that really speak to me are definitely the ones about the degradation and inhumanity of life under the capitalist mode of production, the way people are turned into mindless beasts who can't even enjoy easy socializing and appreciate the simple aspects of life; a meal, a cool drink of water, a day's work on a hard project with fruitful results. All of it captured and commodified by profit-driven market entities, and they won't stop until they live inside our brains.
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Sep 3, 2018 21:17
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reading the tedious liberal posts in here lately and somehow coming away thinking it’s a bad thing to shoot people for their poo poo opinions
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Sep 3, 2018 21:24
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GalacticAcid posted:reading the tedious liberal posts in here lately and somehow coming away thinking it’s a bad thing to shoot people for their poo poo opinions The tedious posts convinced you its bad to kill people for having a poo poo opinion?
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Sep 3, 2018 21:40
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GalacticAcid posted:reading the tedious liberal posts in here lately and somehow coming away thinking it’s a bad thing to shoot people for their poo poo opinions You know, I'm bit-by-bit coming around to the same conclusion here. I am also starting to believe there are indeed people who need to be shot for their opinions, for they present a clear and lethal danger to a unified, worldwide socialist movement.
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Sep 3, 2018 21:40
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I could probably make a strong argument that the Leningrad affair (and earlier purges) deprived the soviet union of capable administrators and leadership down the line, but I'm on vacation so y'all will just have to imagine it.
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Sep 3, 2018 21:43
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Karl Barks posted:The tedious posts convinced you its bad to kill people for having a poo poo opinion? It is a joke
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Sep 3, 2018 21:46
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maybe next time we should shoot the leninists before they shoot the rest of us
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Sep 3, 2018 21:47
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GalacticAcid posted:It is a joke Like I said, I'm on vacation!!
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Sep 3, 2018 21:48
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Nice, enjoy Vacation is good
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Sep 3, 2018 21:49
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Just shoot everyone, because they may have also decided to shoot everyone
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Sep 3, 2018 21:50
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Kurnugia posted:You seriously don't think that treating dissent as treason had anything at all to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union then? You’re comparing apples to oranges here. Besides the Soviet Union which eventually collapsed encouraged dissent starting with the Destalinization campaign. Dissent wasn’t a death sentence.
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Sep 3, 2018 21:50
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My political philosophy is the last scene in reservoir dogs
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Sep 3, 2018 21:51
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Kurnugia posted:maybe next time we should shoot the leninists before they shoot the rest of us You wouldn’t even be threatening enough to shoot.
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Sep 3, 2018 21:52
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the only guy who survives is the one who doesn’t tip, so you’re a libertarian
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Sep 3, 2018 21:52
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You’re comparing apples to oranges here. Besides the Soviet Union which eventually collapsed encouraged dissent starting with the Destalinization campaign. Dissent wasn’t a death sentence. Uhhuh. So you think it was the other way around, allowing dissent is what that led to the collapse? e: or was it just irrelevant? Made no difference either way? Kurnugia fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Sep 3, 2018 |
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Sep 3, 2018 21:54
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Kurnugia posted:Uhhuh. So you think it was the other way around, allowing dissent is what that led to the collapse? No, you don't even understand what you're talking about. You're comparing wartime conditions to a post-revolutionary regime. Besides, the Soviet Union fell apart because the Red Army was too weak to stop the Nagorno-Karabakh War. That made it clear to all the sister republics that they could declare independence and the Soviet Union couldn't stop them, which they did over the course of a couple years.
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Sep 3, 2018 22:06
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Idk what all this hand wringing over killing soc dems is because soc dems are liberals and half the jokes in this forum involve liberal death
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Sep 3, 2018 22:14
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:No, you don't even understand what you're talking about. You're comparing wartime conditions to a post-revolutionary regime. If you cannot see a continuity between these things you separate in your mind into different boxes with apples and oranges, if you cannot fathom why all the 'sister republics' would ever want to secede the moment the threat of military occupation was removed, I dunno what to tell you mate. cheers and good luck, i guess
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Sep 3, 2018 22:18
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The Soviet Union collapsed due to a century of blockade, espionage, and direct military action by the United States and Europe
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Sep 3, 2018 22:28
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Kurnugia posted:If you cannot see a continuity between these things you separate in your mind into different boxes with apples and oranges, if you cannot fathom why all the 'sister republics' would ever want to secede the moment the threat of military occupation was removed, I dunno what to tell you mate. cheers and good luck, i guess Dont condescend to me, twerp. The causes of the Soviet Union's collapse are far more varied and complicated than "they shot dissenters at some point." It's insanely reductionist and ahistorical.
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Sep 3, 2018 22:30
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Dont condescend to me, twerp. The causes of the Soviet Union's collapse are far more varied and complicated uhhuh e: dunno where you got the idea that I thought the suppression of dissent was the only cause for the collapse, but good on you for picking that up either way Kurnugia fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Sep 3, 2018 |
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Sep 3, 2018 22:35
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The Soviet Union collapsed because Gorbachev ate all the treats
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Sep 3, 2018 22:38
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Kurnugia posted:You seriously don't think that treating dissent as treason had anything at all to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union then? The Soviet union mostly collapsed when it stopped doing that.
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Sep 3, 2018 23:21
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https://twitter.com/Ahmadinejad1956/status/1036685396837625856
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Sep 3, 2018 23:30
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reignonyourparade posted:The Soviet union mostly collapsed when it stopped doing that. authoritarian regimes tend to do that when their ability to project force is compromised, yes
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Sep 3, 2018 23:30
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Kurnugia posted:authoritarian regimes
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Sep 4, 2018 00:09
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didnt they hold like a free open referendum before the ussr dissolved and the vast majority of the republics wanted to keep and stay in the union? obviously ukraine, the baltics wanted out
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Sep 4, 2018 00:10
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mila kunis posted:didnt they hold like a free open referendum before the ussr dissolved and the vast majority of the republics wanted to keep and stay in the union? obviously ukraine, the baltics wanted out Not quite, the referendum was to reform the USSR as a confederation of states. it passed in every Soviet republic, but was never implemented because the USSR dissolved instead. GalacticAcid posted:the only guy who survives is the one who doesn’t tip, so you’re a libertarian GOOGLE MURRAY BOOKCHIN
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Sep 4, 2018 00:18
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well, aside from armenia, georgia, estonia, latvia, lithuania and moldova.
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Sep 4, 2018 00:21
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The end result would have almost certainly meant the return of private property in a lot of the ex Soviet republic anyways, so the outcomes weren't much different imo It's like if US states no longer had to answer to DC
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Sep 4, 2018 00:26
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Kurnugia posted:well, aside from armenia, georgia, estonia, latvia, lithuania and moldova. drat so like 10 ssrs wanted to stay in even at the end? surprised ukraine was one of em.
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Sep 4, 2018 00:26
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Soviet Socialist Rethuglic
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Sep 4, 2018 00:27
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I'm still a bit surprised that my argument that Stalin's purges, and the political system he built alongside it, having long-term effects that ultimately doomed the Soviet project, is so controversial among communists.
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Sep 4, 2018 00:29
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mila kunis posted:drat so like 10 ssrs wanted to stay in even at the end? surprised ukraine was one of em. Both yes and no we're votes to end the USSR, the yes vote just meant staying in a confederation. Every SSR voted in favor, but (okay I had to Google this part) the ones listed above boycotted the referendum
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Sep 4, 2018 00:30
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I'm putting my vote in for "the 5 year plans became more and more detached from reality, and the reforms devised in the 60s were never actually implemented, so the USSR was eventually torn apart by it's internal contradictions"
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Sep 4, 2018 00:32
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mila kunis posted:drat so like 10 ssrs wanted to stay in even at the end? surprised ukraine was one of em. Karl Barks posted:Both yes and no we're votes to end the USSR, the yes vote just meant staying in a confederation. Every SSR voted in favor, but (okay I had to Google this part) the ones listed above boycotted the referendum Yeah and it's kinda hard to say much about what that might've been or that people's opinions would have remained the same once presented with the actual form of that hypothetical confederation. Maybe it would've been great, and people probably wanted to hold on to the dream of socialism even in the face of dysfunction and disintegration, so 
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Sep 4, 2018 00:33
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Karl Barks posted:I'm putting my vote in for "the 5 year plans became more and more detached from reality, and the reforms devised in the 60s were never actually implemented, so the USSR was eventually torn apart by it's internal contradictions" Of course, that's contingent to my argument. But the problems preceded Khrushchev and his successors. They just didn't resolve any of them.
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Sep 4, 2018 00:35
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