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BravestOfTheLamps posted:If Sweden goes into a financial depression, the SD megahitlers are not going to start confiscating money from "poor brown people" to fix it, becase they obviously have very little of it. Idk, clearing out the ghettos and dishing out the rental contracts alone would go a long way to stroke the back of angry young urbanites. Im pretty sure they could get away with something like that.
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Sep 3, 2018 18:23
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so that means I can be a cheapskate and post about posting instead of having some wit or spending any more on comedy avs for people. Which I'm also incapable of. Comedy.
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I can't believe the SD monsters want to end ghettoes.
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Sep 3, 2018 18:27
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V. Illych L. posted:honestly there is very little to be said for the notion that communists must follow 'the proles' and take 'their' opinion as gospel If you look towards Syria and the Kurds for examples of communists in a revolutionary context it's very much the opposite. Lots of ideology training/education.
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Sep 3, 2018 20:02
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V. Illych L. posted:honestly there is very little to be said for the notion that communists must follow 'the proles' and take 'their' opinion as gospel No but you have to win their support if they are your political base. Which runs counter to the idea of the trash pile, that the working class who has touched the poop is irredeemable and cursed, and can never be reached. You have to look after their material self interest and then construct a convincing story that explains why things are the way they are and how you will provide for them. So look at every issue of migration/immigration, and ask "is this in their material interests, and can i sell that story to them?" And yes yes Immigration on average in the longterm leads to GDP growth blahblah... It's a lovely story. Get a better one. Here, have a quote from Mark Blyth TRANSCRIBED BY ME FOR YOUR VIEWING PLEASURE! quote:And the example of immigration... it's very different depending on where you live. Immigration to me is another person from another interesting country with a PHD. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsqGITb0W4A&t=2365s can definitely recommend the full video btw.
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Sep 3, 2018 20:59
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I can't believe the SD monsters want to end ghettoes. You really are 100% pure poo poo.
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Sep 3, 2018 22:42
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White Rock posted:Here, have a quote from Mark Blyth TRANSCRIBED BY ME FOR YOUR VIEWING PLEASURE! Mark Blyth's conclusion is not that racists are right and that we should all get on the populism gravy train. He's identified that populist right-wing parties are on the rise because neoliberalism has failed to provide for the majority, and any party that speaks to that discontent (left or right) will benefit. He then suggests adopting left-wing policies and economic reform to meet the needs of the lower and middle class.
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Sep 3, 2018 23:14
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Biomute posted:Mark Blyth's conclusion is not that racists are right and that we should all get on the populism gravy train. He's identified that populist right-wing parties are on the rise because neoliberalism has failed to provide for the majority, and any party that speaks to that discontent (left or right) will benefit. He then suggests adopting left-wing policies and economic reform to meet the needs of the lower and middle class. I don't remember if it's the same video, but he's also pointed out that those most opposed to immigrants typically live the furthest from them.
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Sep 4, 2018 00:00
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I can't believe the SD monsters want to end ghettoes. It's not like the underlying, much more basic issues will dissapear. It would simply be about cleaning out the cities real estate and moving the ghetto further away.
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Sep 4, 2018 06:34
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SplitSoul posted:I don't remember if it's the same video, but he's also pointed out that those most opposed to immigrants typically live the furthest from them. I thought gentrified, inner-city yuppies were the ones signal amplifying a pro-migration standpoint while the proles were generally more averse? Or did I walk right into a right-wing trope?
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Sep 4, 2018 06:36
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Retarded Goatee posted:It's not like the underlying, much more basic issues will dissapear. It would simply be about cleaning out the cities real estate and moving the ghetto further away. The worst thing we have to fear is poor urban planning?
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Sep 4, 2018 06:40
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I can't believe the SD monsters want to end ghettoes. BotL bravely steps forward to defend gentrification.
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Sep 4, 2018 06:55
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Biomute posted:Mark Blyth's conclusion is not that racists are right and that we should all get on the populism gravy train. Never said that, will you stop straw manning and start actually reading? Biomute posted:He's identified that populist right-wing parties are on the rise because neoliberalism has failed to provide for the majority, and any party that speaks to that discontent (left or right) will benefit. He then suggests adopting left-wing policies and economic reform to meet the needs of the lower and middle class. Blyth's point in the quote is also that you can't sell immigration as a benefit using national averages of GDP, which was the point of my post. And you have to confront the real issues of immigration, because people care. Biggest issue in swedish election. You need a better story then "there is no negative consequences of immigration worth talking about".
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Sep 4, 2018 09:55
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White Rock posted:Never said that, will you stop straw manning and start actually reading? 
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Sep 4, 2018 10:19
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White Rock posted:Blyth's point in the quote is also that you can't sell immigration as a benefit using national averages of GDP, which was the point of my post. Great, but that's a straw man you put out there, so you're essentially having an argument with yourself. Don't worry though, you're definitely winning. thotsky fucked around with this message at 10:36 on Sep 4, 2018 |
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Sep 4, 2018 10:34
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White Rock posted:And you have to confront the real issues of immigration, because people care. Biggest issue in swedish election. You need a better story then "there is no negative consequences of immigration worth talking about". Alright, so what are these negative consequences of immigration that are worth talking about? Because the only concrete thing you've brought up is how we need to acknowledge that brown people are inherently rapey and scary, which is a complete non-starter if you want to implement any policies that aren't just stepping stones towards going full-on ethnostate, even if we treat talking from a point of morality as a losing proposition.
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Sep 4, 2018 10:41
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Is it okay to think that certain immigrants who came straight from the apocalypse can be kind of a local integration issue? A lot of kids with zero education who grew up in hell on earth and were surrounded by constant violence and death (absolutely no exaggeration here, Syria is a nightmare) are basically bound to become outcasts in a scandinavian society, especially since most of them are poor as well. Is this racist thinking? The problem is that no one dares talk about stuff like this because someone will inevitably start pointing fingers and calling you a racist piece of poo poo even though you never comment on ethnicity race or skin color. This made people feel like they weren't allowed to express what they wanted to express - so when the shitlords SD came around the Swedish populace flocked to them because they at least talked openly about this stuff and do not lambast you as a monster if you dare question immigration policies. The opposition just kept shooting themselves in the foot trying to suppress this legit concern of the people
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Sep 4, 2018 10:52
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I don't know what the situation is like in Sweden, but I've never heard of anyone in Denmark getting guff for suggesting that we treat refugees like refugees, i.e. provide them with an actual support network and make efforts to integrate them. The current conversation is focused on undoing the "integration" policies of the right, which mostly involve treating them somewhere between cattle and criminals, but the conversation on the left has always been about how these people need help which they currently are not receiving. I'm pretty clearly not hanging out in whatever leftist circles you guys are talking about, and I'm not saying they don't exist, but I've never seen someone fighting for refugee rights get attacked from anywhere but the right.
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Sep 4, 2018 11:06
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People do talk about the challenges facing traumatized refugees, and how it makes integration difficult. It's not a taboo topic in either political, academic or institutional circles. It is however, mostly irrelevant when it comes to deciding on your immigration policy. Most people agree that we have even more of a duty to help people who are hurt and vulnerable, and international treaties and guidelines reflect this. A lot of these people can become productive members of society, and a lot more would be if we made an effort to integrate them and let them work, but some probably won't be, and that's fine, we can afford to show compassion. In fact, not doing so would be devaluing ourselves. It's also good to keep in mind that arguing for an immigration policy that somehow is supposed to screen out people not worth letting in for whatever reason is the common first rhetorical step for actual racists. Once you start down that road you've already thrown aside the idea that we all have equal worth as humans, and it's very easy to just keep expanding that group of "undesirables" to include anyone you don't like. So yeah, it's about context. When you argue that there's not enough negative press about immigrants in the current context it becomes racist by definition. I'm not really sure how suppression factors in here. If you're walking around being racist expecting that to fly I guess it can seem like suppression when people react badly or ignore you. thotsky fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Sep 4, 2018 |
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Sep 4, 2018 11:12
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Alright, so what are these negative consequences of immigration that are worth talking about? Because the only concrete thing you've brought up is how we need to acknowledge that brown people are inherently rapey and scary, which is a complete non-starter if you want to implement any policies that aren't just stepping stones towards going full-on ethnostate, even if we treat talking from a point of morality as a losing proposition. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/kanda-feminister-lamnar-orten https://www.svd.se/stiftade-jamstalldhetslagar-galler-inte-i-fororten http://www.gp.se/nyheter/g%C3%B6teborg/social-kontroll-i-f%C3%B6rorten-1.145178 https://www.svt.se/nyheter/granskning/ug/muslimska-ledare-uppmanar-kvinnor-till-underkastelse https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/longread/utanforskapet-inifran/hbtq-hatet-de-sa-att-de-skulle-valdta-oss-ratt/ https://www.svt.se/nyheter/granskning/ug/ny-kartlaggning-av-valdtaktsdomar-58-procent-av-de-domda-fodda-utomlands Some examples of the negative consequences of immigration. Caveat to that last one: That is a very sticky topic, and it's important to remember the potentiall bias in the justice system where foreigners might be more likely to be convicted than Joe Swedsons. Biomute posted:People do talk about the challenges facing traumatized refugees, and how it makes integration difficult. It's not a taboo topic in either political, academic or institutional circles. It is however, entirely irrelevant when it comes to forming immigration policy. Most people agree that we have even more of a duty to help people who are hurt and vulnerable, and international treaties and guidelines reflect this. People talk about it now, but the negative consequences of immigration have been building up for the better part of 15 years and any criticism of immigration policy was decried as racist up until 3-4 years ago when public opinion shifted enough that the media felt more comfortable being critical of it. The stuff I linked above has been stuff I've been aware of for a long time, it didn't spring up out of nowhere, it's just that people like you decry it as racism and stifle the debate instead of facing inconvenient truths, and as a result you now have the weakest elements of society, refugee women and HBTQ people, suffer because of it, because their concerns are being dismissed as right wing talking points. Yeah, lots of these people will become productive members of society. Some won't. And as long as the balance is in the right direction that is fine, but the reality is that we don't have an unlimited budget, each person that arrives here comes with a price tag, and if we're to actually give the refugees and immigrants that do come here a good environment to adapt and integrate that means we need to make sure we either limit the numbers to what we can handle or start building up our system so it can handle bigger numbers, or ideally, both. The problem is that there's political will for the former, but not for the latter, because you got shitloads of FYGM middleclass types who love lowered taxes and RUT because it saves them 2-300 euros a month or whatever. McCloud fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Sep 4, 2018 |
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Sep 4, 2018 11:55
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Retarded Goatee posted:I thought gentrified, inner-city yuppies were the ones signal amplifying a pro-migration standpoint while the proles were generally more averse? Or did I walk right into a right-wing trope? I'll see if I can find the video again, I've watched a bunch of them, but IIRC he uses Germany as an example, where the support for AfD is strongest in the parts of the country with the least immigrants, but where the effects of austerity are also the harshest. The same pattern is visible in Denmark. I doubt it's an aberration. That's why it's loving idiotic to cater to racist delusions when the obvious route is to hammer on inequality, tax evasion, privatisation, cutbacks and the like. Even the Social Democrats have begun to realise that the strategy of "be exactly like the Liberals, but somehow more racist" doesn't really cut it, their challenge will be to sell their newfound concern for the poor with a leader who was personally responsible for loving over tens of thousands of welfare recipients not even half a decade ago, a lot of them severely handicapped and/or terminally ill, and whose government neglected an explosion in homelessness among young people, explicitly cut student allowance in order to lower corporate taxes, sold control and partial ownership of the public energy firm to Goldman Sachs and allowed them to funnel profits through a tax shelter, killed dead the existing labour model and made literally a tenth of all school teachers quit their jobs, and so on.
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Sep 4, 2018 12:07
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Zzulu posted:Is it okay to think that certain immigrants who came straight from the apocalypse can be kind of a local integration issue? A lot of kids with zero education who grew up in hell on earth and were surrounded by constant violence and death (absolutely no exaggeration here, Syria is a nightmare) are basically bound to become outcasts in a scandinavian society, especially since most of them are poor as well. Add to the fact that lovely, archaic views will not magically dissapear just because you change venue. If you're a conservative muslim/druze/christian nutjob, it's not a simple issue of just applying enough Brännvin and Kalles Kaviar to magically turn people "Swedish". Male heads of family might even double down on the oppression simply due to the fact that the social control is all that remains, now that they're oftentimes unable to even provide an income - one of the most basic functions of the male in the household p. much globally. I don't see large-scale integration occuring outside of a framework which includes a rigid, state-enforced education curriculum and in particular the education of women in the ghettos. Large programmes for people who wish to escape destructive oppression in lovely families will probably also need to put in place. In a sense, you would have to break up local loyalties in favor of larger society, spoon-feed people information about their rights and provide a competitive skillset which allows access to the job market. We cannot opt out of providing the means of integration, just as the migrants cannot opt out of taking part in it.
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Sep 4, 2018 12:09
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SplitSoul posted:I'll see if I can find the video again, I've watched a bunch of them, but IIRC he uses Germany as an example, where the support for AfD is strongest in the parts of the country with the least immigrants, but where the effects of austerity are also the harshest. The same pattern is visible in Denmark. I doubt it's an aberration. Iirc, the German situation almost mirrors the former borders of Eastern Germany. Hard aversion to anything reminiscent of left-wing and an affinity for the right might also have a bit to do with the GDR being, compared to Western Germany an underdeveloped shithole thanks to the blunders of the former rulers.
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Sep 4, 2018 12:13
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Biomute posted:... keep in mind that arguing for an immigration policy that somehow is supposed to screen out people not worth letting in for whatever reason is the common first rhetorical step for actual racists. Let everyone in, if not, you are racist! Listen to yourself: "keep in mind...", you speak as if delivering a sermon of unassailable objective truth, when it is just the usual far left fantasy spiel. Any kind of constructive dialog is shut down with that ideology at the helm, when you are allowed to smear anyone that doesn't agree with you as racist. Wanting to alleviate human suffering is always noble, but so is preserving the safety and integrity of your own country. Those two things are not mutually exclusive. Supporting MSF, or others like them, will help the weakest of the weak, the victims of war, the women and children, regardless of political affiliation, skin color or faith. They, and others like them try and create better places around the world, locally. National aid comes at the problem from a more structural angle, trying to build up local communities to be self sufficient, safe and prosperous. These things do infinitely more good in the world, than accepting large number of migrants, who are those least in need from the affected areas anyway. This way immigration can be limited to those that will integrate successfully, as of course it should be.
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Sep 4, 2018 12:19
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Rnr posted:but so is preserving the safety and integrity of your own country. Woof, woof.
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Sep 4, 2018 12:30
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McCloud posted:People talk about it now, but the negative consequences of immigration have been building up for the better part of 15 years and any criticism of immigration policy was decried as racist up until 3-4 years ago when public opinion shifted enough that the media felt more comfortable being critical of it. Nah, this is just not true. People have always been aware that there is a cost associated with immigration, but people have been willing to deal with it because there is is a humanitarian duty to do so and because unless you're an arch-conservative you see some way of benefiting from it long term as a society. There's been surges of anti-immigration sentiment before, and the media generally goes where the money is. I'm not any more fond of them than you are, but if you're feeling like the media is not giving enough time to voices critical of immigration that's more indicative of your views then some conspiracy. Criticizing immigration as a concept is decried as racist because it is. Arguing for blood and soil like Rnr does above, even if couched as "taking care of ones own country first" is morally bankrupt. We have plenty of space, and plenty of cash. If the problem is, like you say, that there's not political will to provide for refugees and immigrants, then vote for and get active in V or your local left party. It would be a lot more productive (and a lot less racist). thotsky fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Sep 4, 2018 |
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Sep 4, 2018 12:53
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Retarded Goatee posted:Add to the fact that lovely, archaic views will not magically dissapear just because you change venue. If you're a conservative muslim/druze/christian nutjob, it's not a simple issue of just applying enough Brännvin and Kalles Kaviar to magically turn people "Swedish". Male heads of family might even double down on the oppression simply due to the fact that the social control is all that remains, now that they're oftentimes unable to even provide an income - one of the most basic functions of the male in the household p. much globally. Exactly right, but this framework will also require tremendous resources and again, there's a lack of will to spend those resources when we have other areas that are desperately starved for resources as well, like schools, healthcare, elderly care, etc. I do think that the way the left has been pushing a larger international cooperation in dealing with future incoming immigrants is the best possible course of action, because this is a humanitarian issue and Sweden alone can't bear that weight.
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Sep 4, 2018 12:55
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Retarded Goatee posted:Iirc, the German situation almost mirrors the former borders of Eastern Germany. Hard aversion to anything reminiscent of left-wing and an affinity for the right might also have a bit to do with the GDR being, compared to Western Germany an underdeveloped shithole thanks to the blunders of the former rulers.  I think you mean current rulers. It's been three decades. Also, I don't know if it holds water still, but a decade ago a sizable majority (57%) of former East Germans felt some measure of Ostalgie. It's apparently so widespread they have a name for it.
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Sep 4, 2018 13:00
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Biomute posted:Nah, this is just not true. People have always been aware that there is a cost associated with immigration, but people have been willing to deal with it because because there is is a humanitarian duty to do so and because unless you're an arch-conservative you see some way of benefiting from it long term as a society. There's been surges of anti-immigration sentiment before, and the media generally goes where the money is. I'm not any more fond of them than you are, but if you're feeling like the media is not giving enough time to voices critical of immigration that's more indicative of you then some conspiracy. Yeah ok you know what, I'll admit that I'm probably wrong about this. M;y recollection stretches back only as far back as the late 90's, I am vaguely aware of Proto-Trump Bert Karlsson and the brief nazi resurgance in the 90's, but even after that I recall that there's been a lot of discussions about patriarchal honor killings after Fadime, so fair enough.
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Sep 4, 2018 13:10
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Zzulu posted:Is it okay to think that certain immigrants who came straight from the apocalypse can be kind of a local integration issue? A lot of kids with zero education who grew up in hell on earth and were surrounded by constant violence and death (absolutely no exaggeration here, Syria is a nightmare) are basically bound to become outcasts in a scandinavian society, especially since most of them are poor as well. Biomute posted:Nah, this is just not true. People have always been aware that there is a cost associated with immigration, but people have been willing to deal with it because there is is a humanitarian duty to do so and because unless you're an arch-conservative you see some way of benefiting from it long term as a society. There's been surges of anti-immigration sentiment before, and the media generally goes where the money is. I'm not any more fond of them than you are, but if you're feeling like the media is not giving enough time to voices critical of immigration that's more indicative of your views then some conspiracy.
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Sep 4, 2018 14:11
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SplitSoul posted:
It's a lot easier to see in Denmark. Look at map of which municipalities DF got their highest share of the votes. That's where the most racist people live, also where the fewest immigrants are (for the vast majority anyway). While you're looking at said map, try to avoid the sinking into despair when you notice how many municipalities they got a 30% share of the vote. I vaguely remember the heady days of being flabbergasted that 10% of danish people were so outright racist that they'd vote for DF.
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Sep 4, 2018 14:35
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evil_bunnY posted:
Let's not pretend that the media has not seen a fair share of downright delusional portrayals of migrants as piggy banks - which by and of itself is perverse.
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Sep 4, 2018 14:36
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Revelation 2-13 posted:It's a lot easier to see in Denmark. Look at map of which municipalities DF got their highest share of the votes. That's where the most racist people live, also where the fewest immigrants are (for the vast majority anyway). While you're looking at said map, try to avoid the sinking into despair when you notice how many municipalities they got a 30% share of the vote. I vaguely remember the heady days of being flabbergasted that 10% of danish people were so outright racist that they'd vote for DF. They also promised a lot of money and resources for elderly care, pension improvements, that sort of thing. The rural areas that voted heavily for DF have a lot of elderly people and people rapidly approaching the pension age. Obviously DF were unable to deliver on their promises, instead they actively worsened conditions for the elderly, and spent a lot of energy on mandatory pork in kindergartens.
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Sep 4, 2018 14:39
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KozmoNaut posted:They also promised a lot of money and resources for elderly care, pension improvements, that sort of thing. Also I remember Venstre (read: Løkke) pissing off a lot of their traditional voters, the farmers, shortly before the last election who then voted DF in protest. https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/regionale/trekanten/venstre-byraadsmedlem-om-stoejbergs-forslag-om-haandtryk-et-skridt-paa "The best thing about the forced handshake is that the same hand then can't be raised in an even more vile salute" 
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Sep 4, 2018 14:52
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Lima posted:Also I remember Venstre (read: Løkke) pissing off a lot of their traditional voters, the farmers, shortly before the last election who then voted DF in protest. A few weeks ago it was that CEPOS parasite laying it on the racists. Shame only few people on the parliamentary left dare say something similar anymore, because decorum and also the fragile racists might be triggered and vote even nazier next time! Allow me to illustrate: A few days ago I saw Pelle Dragsted characterise the statement "Privileged white men wrote the constitution" as racial prejudice. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Sep 4, 2018 |
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Sep 4, 2018 17:43
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The gap between V and SD's gains keep shrinking in poll of polls as this months polls slowly start getting added. M is also dead in the water but that's not news.
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Sep 4, 2018 18:17
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SplitSoul posted:Also, I don't know if it holds water still, but a decade ago a sizable majority (57%) of former East Germans felt some measure of Ostalgie. It's apparently so widespread they have a name for it.
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Sep 4, 2018 18:45
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MiddleOne posted:
Rest in piss.
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Sep 4, 2018 18:49
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 Saw the one with Skaarup today. Immediately thought of 
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Sep 4, 2018 18:54
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Biomute posted:Great, but that's a straw man you put out there, so you're essentially having an argument with yourself. Nonsensical. Biomute posted:If the problem is, like you say, that there's not political will to provide for refugees and immigrants, then vote for and get active in V or your local left party. It would be a lot more productive (and a lot less racist). "We don't have political will so let's keep pushing the same narrative until that will materializes?" A narrative that was first shared among most parties and has been diluted until it now only exists in FI and V?
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Sep 4, 2018 18:54
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White Rock posted:"We don't have political will so let's keep pushing the same narrative until that will materializes?" A narrative that was first shared among most parties and has been diluted until it now only exists in FI and V? that "pushing" that you deride is the act of creating "political will" the reason why the narrative has been diluted is because so-called "left" parties are full of shitheads like yourself who can't wait to hitch their wagons to any diseased horse that will boot out the browns and their moon god
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Sep 4, 2018 19:14
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