Religionthread: Mass at 5am so we can have breakfast earlier

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Epicurius: Apr 10, 2010; College Slice

Spacewolf posted:

(We could have terrifying fights about things like the Holy Fire ritual in Orthodoxy, but I don't think that'd be productive, does anyone else?)

I mean, maybe? I guess it comes down to the question, "what is magic"? Are Roman curse tablets magic?

# ? Sep 10, 2018 14:34

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 23:05

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

So MY GIRLFRIEND just went to Crete for the first time, and found a bitching icon of St. Mark at a monastery:

if you're in doubt, poo poo is genuine art.

Anyway, I asked her for pictures, thought you guys would appreciate it :3:

Spacewolf posted:

I need prayers. And maybe more.

Situation:

I'll pray to Eir, avatar of Freja and the supreme patron of healing on your behalf and send you remote healing! Though only if you want me to, of course.

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:05

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

I like how the certificate says different things in all three languages. The English version adds the part about Byzantium and piece of art.

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:08

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

What does it say in the not-English ones? :o ^^^^ Thanks man ^^^^

Tias fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Sep 10, 2018

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:09

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Spacewolf posted:

It was really undiplomatic on my part, yes. I apologize now for that to Cythereal. But literally, this is where the term "hocus pocus" (as in fake magical bullshit) comes from (at least the generally accepted theory, according to Wikipedia, now thta I check): Anglicans mocking the Latin of the words of consecration: "hoc est enim corpus" (this is my body).

Comparing the Eucharistic Prayer, any part of it, to magic therefore has....not a great history.

Anyway! Pellisworth: Who has the better coffee, though? That's the key point!

Personally, and in complete seriousness not meant to offend anyone, this baffles me. Why should the precise words matter? Saying that you must say these exact and specific things in exactly this way smacks to me of, well, magic and incantations - I truly don't mean to offend anyone by that, it's a thing that crops up in conservative Evangelical circles as well, that unless you say this precise and exact prayer in this exact way, you're not really saved. And I don't get that. If nothing else, God knows full well that languages shift and fluctuate over time, and translations from one language to another are rarely exact even when the original script is recorded accurately and maintained accurately.

In my understanding of what Christianity is, it's between you and God, period. And God knows what's in your heart, and doesn't sweat the minor details if you're sincerely trying to love Him and act as a Christian should. Even the sacraments, to my understanding, are purely symbolic gestures of piety and obedience, not innately meaningful rituals in and of themselves.

I truly don't mean to offend anyone by saying all of this, I'm just confused. For all that I've read these threads, this is something about how y'all believe and act that I never picked up on.

https://i.imgur.com/EgLXi7S.mp4

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:24

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Cythereal posted:

Personally, and in complete seriousness not meant to offend anyone, this baffles me. Why should the precise words matter? Saying that you must say these exact and specific things in exactly this way smacks to me of, well, magic and incantations - I truly don't mean to offend anyone by that, it's a thing that crops up in conservative Evangelical circles as well, that unless you say this precise and exact prayer in this exact way, you're not really saved. And I don't get that. If nothing else, God knows full well that languages shift and fluctuate over time, and translations from one language to another are rarely exact even when the original script is recorded accurately and maintained accurately.

If someone did Communion with chewing gum and orange juice, and saying 'rub-a-dub-dub thanks for the grub' instead of reciting Biblical verses, would you agree it was 'wrong'?

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:35

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Paladinus posted:

If someone did Communion with chewing gum and orange juice, and saying 'rub-a-dub-dub thanks for the grub' instead of reciting Biblical verses, would you agree it was 'wrong'?

That's a completely absurd exaggeration of what I mean and you know it.

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:37

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Paladinus posted:

If someone did Communion with chewing gum and orange juice, and saying 'rub-a-dub-dub thanks for the grub' instead of reciting Biblical verses, would you agree it was 'wrong'?

In a youth service, my wife was part of serving communion with Coke and potato chips. It was valid for them in the United Church of Christ.

Their point was that there is nothing magic about bread and wine. They were just common foods that were shared at the meal. If Jesus were around today, he might well have passed around Coke and potato chips. The meaning of the sacrament is in your relationship with God, not the stuff you're putting in your mouth.

I realize its a Protestant versus Catholic thing, and neither side will ever agree with the other about it.

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:49

Slimy Hog: Apr 22, 2008

Cythereal posted:

That's a completely absurd exaggeration of what I mean and you know it.

I think it illustrates a good point though, where is the line drawn in your opinion?

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:51

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

I mean, we could go the other direction and discuss inerrancy in translation over two millennia...

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:51

zonohedron: Aug 14, 2006

Cythereal posted:

That's a completely absurd exaggeration of what I mean and you know it.

Well, right, but it's like the Winston Churchill anecdote -

quote:

�Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?"
Socialite: "My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course... "
Churchill: "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?"
Socialite: "Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!"
Churchill: "Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price�

You can accept that some Communion prayers might be efficacious - even if you don't believe anything happens to or with or around the bread, you can accept that there's some that are Good Prayers - and you can accept that there's obviously some that are absurdly bad (orange juice and gum), so it's reasonable to suggest that there's some that aren't obviously absurd but also not Good Prayers.

Like, we Catholics aren't exactly as strict as it sounds: our opinion on Exact Words and Correct Material is that we know those work, and we don't know whether anything else does or doesn't, much like we assert that we know that some people definitely are in Heaven, but not whether or not someone else isn't. It's less "I cast magic missile at the darkness!" and more "if I say "Mrs Campbell, may I please go to the bathroom?" I'll definitely get to go, but I don't know whether she'll let me go if I say "can" or if I don't say "please" or if I just grab the bathroom pass and wave it wildly over my head, and I really need to go, so I'm going to say it exactly the right way."

For all Fr. Z's faults, I very much appreciate his "Say the black, do the red" catchphrase, and strongly considered buying one of those mugs for one of my parish's previous pastors, not because I'm afraid that a priest who doesn't keep his index finger and thumb together after the consecration is committing a sacrilege, but because when a priest says what's written for him to say, and does what's written for him to do, he avoids his congregation having to worry about whether the sacrament in question - whether it's baptism or communion or confession - was valid, and he's demonstrating that he cares about what he's doing, that it's not a performance or a chance to show off how Really Truly Pastoral And Relevant he is.

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:52

Cythereal: Nov 8, 2009; I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

Slimy Hog posted:

I think it illustrates a good point though, where is the line drawn in your opinion?

With the intent. I think that example is absurd and pointless because I can't imagine anyone sincerely thinking that was performing the Lord's Supper. Hypothetically speaking, if that truly was the only food and drink the person had on hand and somehow that was the best approximation of what was said? Sure, why not. But that's a completely ridiculous hypothetical in my opinion.

I draw the line at "Is this person sincerely attempting to do right by God the best way they know how and/or with what they have on hand?"

The Evangelical view of the Lord's Supper is that it's a symbolic act of obedience, echoing Christ's final commands to his followers and so we echo the followers' response as a gesture of obedience and piety.

https://i.imgur.com/QOXc1sg.mp4

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:54

docbeard: Jul 19, 2011

Deteriorata posted:

I realize its a Protestant versus Catholic thing, and neither side will ever agree with the other about it.

It's pretty much the Protestant versus Catholic thing. (Well, one of them.)

In any event, no one at all is going to respond well to "hey, you know that thing you hold sacred? It's actually completely meaningless"

# ? Sep 10, 2018 15:55

Senju Kannon: Apr 9, 2011; by Nyc_Tattoo

i mean some of the earliest liturgical documents are rubrics for what liturgies had to contain, not specific prayers that needed to be said, and there's historical examples of things like eucharists with water instead of wine or single substance communion, things that would be considered heretical today

so like there's some precedent for loosening restrictions, especially since some of them put undue financial pressure on impoverished communities where wheat is scarce and expensive and wine is made of rice instead of grapes

# ? Sep 10, 2018 16:17

zonohedron: Aug 14, 2006

Part of the problem, I think, is that we live in a culture where "magic and incantations" are something that obviously don't work. Several threads ago I remarked that the "make nine photocopies of this and leave one in each of nine different churches, nine days in a row" prayers in the back of the church seemed like form letters, and HEY GUNS informed me that the religious variant predated the "Johnny didn't send this letter to anyone, and three days later he was hit by two subway trains at once" sort.

So if one is thinking about "say the black, do the red" as a form letter, well, sure, obviously God is not going to send two subway trains to hit St. Ipsydipsy's, simultaneously or sequentially. But if one thinks about it as a gesture of obedience and piety, then obviously it makes sense to privilege pious obedience over well-meaning attempts at relevance.

# ? Sep 10, 2018 16:20

Slimy Hog: Apr 22, 2008

Cythereal posted:

https://i.imgur.com/QOXc1sg.mp4

I love this.

# ? Sep 10, 2018 16:20

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

zonohedron posted:

Part of the problem, I think, is that we live in a culture where "magic and incantations" are something that obviously don't work. Several threads ago I remarked that the "make nine photocopies of this and leave one in each of nine different churches, nine days in a row" prayers in the back of the church seemed like form letters, and HEY GUNS informed me that the religious variant predated the "Johnny didn't send this letter to anyone, and three days later he was hit by two subway trains at once" sort.

but it postdates widespread literacy and the development of a decent postal service. (And the printing press.)

http://www.silcom.com/~barnowl/chain-letter/evolution.html

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Sep 10, 2018

# ? Sep 10, 2018 16:28

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

I just wanna know what priests are supposed to use in space

# ? Sep 10, 2018 16:45

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Oh, and since we're pussyposting in full effect:

If you've somehow failed at internets and don't know what Pallas Cats are yet, get enlightened

Tias fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Sep 10, 2018

# ? Sep 10, 2018 16:50

System Metternich: Feb 28, 2010; But what did he mean by that?

StashAugustine posted:

I just wanna know what priests are supposed to use in space

quote:

Before Armstrong and Aldrin stepped out of the lunar module on July 20, 1969, Aldrin unstowed a small plastic container of wine and some bread. He had brought them to the moon from Webster Presbyterian church near Houston, where he was an elder. Aldrin had received permission from the Presbyterian church's general assembly to administer it to himself. In his book Magnificent Desolation he shares the message he then radioed to Nasa: "I would like to request a few moments of silence � and to invite each person listening in, wherever and whomever they may be, to pause for a moment and contemplate the events of the past few hours, and to give thanks in his or her own way."
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He then ate and drank the elements. The surreal ceremony is described in an article by Aldrin in a 1970 copy of Guideposts magazine: "I poured the wine into the chalice our church had given me. In the one-sixth gravity of the moon the wine curled slowly and gracefully up the side of the cup. It was interesting to think that the very first liquid ever poured on the moon, and the first food eaten there, were communion elements."

He also read a section of the gospel of John. During it all, Armstrong, reportedly a deist, is said to have watched respectfully but without making any comment.

quote:

Again, God has a way of putting people in your life when there is a need. And Chuck Turner [a deacon as well as the parish facilities manager] and Father Jim [Kuczynski], who had taken over from Father Skip, started asking the questions of the archdiocese: �What would we need to do to allow Mike to take the Eucharist up?� So they really did a lot of the leg work to make it happen, and I was able to take a small pyx up with me that had six wafers divided into four each, so I had 24 opportunities to receive Communion on orbit.

They were able to work it all out with the church; and so, the weekend before I left for Russia � we launch on a Russian rocket from Kazakhstan � I went to Mass one last time, and [the priest] consecrated the wafers into the Body of Christ, and I was able to take the pyx with me.

And this is where, again, the whole process was incredible because every item that we take into space has to be documented and categorized. So when you�re launching on this Russian vehicle, all of these personal items [are processed] � members of the Russian Space Agency take about two weeks to weigh and validate [them] for space flight. Well, I couldn�t just give up the Body of Christ � just hand it over to somebody else!

Yet the Russians were amazing. I went in with all my personal items, and I explained what the pyx was and the meaning of it to me � because for them, they, of course, saw it just as bread, if you will, the wafers � and yet for me [I knew] it was the Body of Christ. And they completely understood and said, �Okay, we�ll estimate it weighs this much, and no problem. You can keep it with you.�

So it was just one thing after another: All these doors opened up, and I was able to take the Eucharist up � and I was able to have Communion, basically, every week. There were a couple of times when I received Communion on, I�ll say, special occasions: I did two spacewalks; so on the morning of both of those days, when I went out for the spacewalk, I had Communion. It was really helpful for me to know that Jesus was with me when I went out the hatch into the vacuum of space. And then I received my last Communion on my last day on orbit in the �Cupola,� which is this large window that looks down at the Earth, and that was a very special moment before I came home.

There is an argument that celebrating Mass in space (or at least in a zero-gravity environment) would be prohibited, just like it used to be prohibited to celebrate Mass on a ship. I don't think so though, not least because attitudes towards the Eucharist have changed, and because the ISS is different from a medieval ship after all.

# ? Sep 10, 2018 17:19

StashAugustine: Mar 24, 2013; Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

I just wanna know how the belters are gonna vat grow communion wine

# ? Sep 10, 2018 18:33

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

System Metternich posted:

Yet the Russians were amazing. I went in with all my personal items, and I explained what the pyx was and the meaning of it to me � because for them, they, of course, saw it just as bread, if you will, the wafers � and yet for me [I knew] it was the Body of Christ.

# ? Sep 10, 2018 19:14

Lutha Mahtin: Oct 10, 2010; Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!

Liquid Communism posted:

I mean, we could go the other direction and discuss inerrancy in translation over two millennia...

this is a good comparison because imo both of these ideas really miss the mark. the point of the scriptures, liturgies, prayers, and all that stuff is not the thing itself, but rather how it interacts with the heart and mind of a person

# ? Sep 10, 2018 20:51

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

📿

# ? Sep 10, 2018 22:39

Lutha Mahtin: Oct 10, 2010; Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!

one of the beads is some kind of steampunk frog...?

oh i just noticed in the corner it's apparently from some kinda anime game

# ? Sep 10, 2018 23:04

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Lutha Mahtin posted:

one of the beads is some kind of steampunk frog...?

it's from berserk

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/10/putin-wants-god-or-at-least-the-church-on-his-side/

edit: Constantinople just did it.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Sep 10, 2018

# ? Sep 10, 2018 23:05

Senju Kannon: Apr 9, 2011; by Nyc_Tattoo

GRIFFITH!!!!!!

# ? Sep 10, 2018 23:31

Spacewolf: May 19, 2014

Senju Kannon posted:

GRIFFITH!!!!!!

Huh?

# ? Sep 10, 2018 23:34

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Epicurius posted:

I mean, maybe? I guess it comes down to the question, "what is magic"? Are Roman curse tablets magic?

Reading the last page and a half I think I'm coming from a completely different direction re: the terminology of magic and suchlike, because I absolutely 100% file prayer/liturgy/religious ritual under the "magic" umbrella. (I bet Tias does too :v:

) I just mean literally zero disrespect by saying so (seeing as how I file my own prayer and ritual under that heading), it's strictly taxonomic. If anything I may have more respect for 'magic and incantations' than some folks here. :v:

System Metternich posted:

There is an argument that celebrating Mass in space (or at least in a zero-gravity environment) would be prohibited, just like it used to be prohibited to celebrate Mass on a ship. I don't think so though, not least because attitudes towards the Eucharist have changed, and because the ISS is different from a medieval ship after all.

This post is completely fantastic.

...Why couldn't you celebrate Mass on a ship, anyway? Everything is definitionally morally tainted by the presence of sailors?

# ? Sep 10, 2018 23:35

Spacewolf: May 19, 2014

GreyjoyBastard posted:

...Why couldn't you celebrate Mass on a ship, anyway? Everything is definitionally morally tainted by the presence of sailors?

Nope!

The way I understand it: Because ships rolled and pitched, and the Body and Blood of Christ would easily spill and basically the Mass would be completely undignified. This changed about? the 19th century, when ships maintained much better seakeeping abilities.

# ? Sep 10, 2018 23:56

TOOT BOOT: May 25, 2010

Why does the precise wording thing only affect the liturgy and not reading the Bible? Why are Bible translations okay if the power is in precise words and not the intent?

# ? Sep 11, 2018 00:49

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

TOOT BOOT posted:

Why does the precise wording thing only affect the liturgy and not reading the Bible? Why are Bible translations okay if the power is in precise words and not the intent?

because reading the bible doesn't change reality on a fundamental level: the words of consecration exactly as they are written do if you're a catholic.

# ? Sep 11, 2018 00:52

Tuxedo Catfish: Mar 17, 2007; You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.

Spacewolf posted:

Huh?

Griffith is a character from Berserk. He's basically a murderous, demon-consorting narcissist who passes himself off as the messiah of the totally-not-the-Catholic-Church organized religion of the comic. The protagonist knew him personally when he was a nobody, and yells his name angrily a lot.

# ? Sep 11, 2018 01:00

Senju Kannon: Apr 9, 2011; by Nyc_Tattoo

also there�s a boat that took ten years to get to its destination

# ? Sep 11, 2018 01:04

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

it is to mercenaries what chinoiserie is to asia which means i like it but cringe at myself for liking it

# ? Sep 11, 2018 01:05

zonohedron: Aug 14, 2006

TOOT BOOT posted:

Why does the precise wording thing only affect the liturgy and not reading the Bible? Why are Bible translations okay if the power is in precise words and not the intent?

HEY GUNS posted:

because reading the bible doesn't change reality on a fundamental level: the words of consecration exactly as they are written do if you're a catholic.

On the one hand, it's not "and not the intent", it's "and not the intent alone", because intent matters too, and on the other hand, most Catholics are attending Mass where the prayers are all translations. It's "the precise words, in the translation designated for the language you're using" - that is, supposing we meet aliens from Tau Ceti who speak Taurinee, and via ~~magic~~ sufficiently advanced technology, a human priest becomes perfectly fluent in Taurinee, he shouldn't ad-lib a translation from English (or even Latin) into Taurinee. Again, it's not because God would be incapable of understanding Taurinee until the Church translated prayers into that language for Him, but rather from a "we know this works, we don't know what else might, we should stick with what we know works" perspective.

And, on the other other hand, some translations aren't okay: a translation where the translators intended to disprove the divinity of Christ would be one that Catholics shouldn't purchase. A study Bible where the footnotes were anti-Catholic or anti-supernatural or something, even if the translation were the same one that gets read at Mass, would also be inappropriate for a Catholic to use.

# ? Sep 11, 2018 01:36

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Lutha Mahtin posted:

one of the beads is some kind of steampunk frog...?

oh i just noticed in the corner it's apparently from some kinda anime game

HEY GUNS posted:

it's from berserk

Now, I'm not a huge anime knower, but I'm pretty sure it's Yoko Taro's mask that he often features in his games. The latest one is Nier Automata, so the item is from there, would be my guess. For some reason I felt very compelled to correct that trivia bit, sorry.

# ? Sep 11, 2018 01:48

Pellisworth: Jun 20, 2005

I had dinner with my new priest, she's an extremely awesome tatted biker lady who I think might be gay? She organizes a ton of community outreach and assistance programs on the reservation so I'll hopefully get more involved in that.

Most Episcopal churches tend toward old and WASPy but owing to the demographics here we actually have a ton of kids and younger people, which is really nice.

The church building itself was built in the 1880s (before South Dakota was a state) and is made of sandstone, it's pretty simple and austere. I'll take some pictures next Sunday.

# ? Sep 11, 2018 02:03