D&D NEXT: Infinite Posts of the Abyss

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Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

ProfessorCirno posted:

Look you excuse your proclamations that people who interpret the sacred tomes of D&D differently from you aren't true fans however you want.

Again, like, five minutes tops on any social media site will quell whatever weird assumptions you have about people getting into the deep nitty gritty Forgotten Realms lore when making their drow OCs.

I don�t necessarily have the right interpretation myself Cirno. But it�s important to point out that interpretation and retransmission of the text through reinterpretation is a fundamentally different idea than the text itself. That�s what I�m trying to establish for you.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 10:53

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# ? May 28, 2024 04:30

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Hey uh I feel we should perhaps refresh our memories in what this argument is about.
Stage 1) the specific implementation of Drow's light sensitivity is garbage for fun and playability
Various normal response included "Yes, here's exactly why it's bad", "Yes, here's better way's it could have been done", and "No, you're overstating the issue, they work fine" (with a side of "Waiting balanced, functioning races is like wanting everyone to just be reckoned humans.
Then Tremek posted a screed about how Drow are unfun to play on purpose to punish people who play Drow and to discourage them from playing them, which has precedent (see 3.x monks). This was upgraded to insane screed when he declared that this was a good thing, and that it must be a good thing since 5e is selling better than 4e, but that 4e selling better than 3.x does not mean that 4e was doing anything right.

Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Sep 13, 2018

# ? Sep 13, 2018 10:54

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

Arivia posted:

I don’t necessarily have the right interpretation myself Cirno. But it’s important to point out that interpretation and retransmission of the text through reinterpretation is a fundamentally different idea than the text itself. That’s what I’m trying to establish for you.

i understand you think talking like this makes you look smart, but it actually makes you look intensely, intensely stupid. also the d&d setting is a bunch of weird pseudo-racist tripe written by old white dudes who havent had an original thought since before et for the atari was released

# ? Sep 13, 2018 10:56

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

Splicer posted:

Hey uh I feel we should perhaps refresh our memories in what this argument is about.
Stage 1) the specific implementation of Drow's light sensitivity is garbage for fun and playability
Various normal response included "Yes, here's exactly why it's bad", "Yes, here's better way's it could have been done", and "No, you're overstating the issue, they work fine" (with a side of "Waiting balanced, functioning races is like wanting everyone to just be reckoned humans.
Then Tremek posted a screed about how Drow are unfun to play on purpose to punish people who play Drow and to discourage them from playing them, which has precedent (see 3.x monks). This was upgraded to insane screed when he declared that this was a good thing, and that it must be a good thing since 5e is selling better than 4e, but that 4e selling better than 3.x does not mean that 4e was doing anything right.

I was only here for the last two points honestly because lol what the gently caress

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:05

Elector_Nerdlingen: Sep 27, 2004

Endorph posted:

havent had an original thought since before et for the atari was released

Planescape and Spelljammer tho.

Haha holy poo poo can you imagine what would happen if Spelljammer were a brand new thing that was released this year?

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:05

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

AlphaDog posted:

Planescape and Spelljammer tho.

Haha holy poo poo can you imagine what would happen if Spelljammer were a brand new thing that was released this year?

those settings are kinda cool but also they're hardly the mainstream D&D setting and even they require some tweaking/fuckery to work as campaign settings imo

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:06

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Jesus Christ

E: as in I hope he comes back as a drow

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 11:10 on Sep 13, 2018

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:07

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

AlphaDog posted:

My bad, I was trying to argue that the Drow thing (and by extension all fantasy race elements and similar setting type stuff) was not inherent to D&D and could be treated as entirely optional.

I can see how it came across that I was saying that you can replace every fictive aspect of D&D with something else and still have it be D&D. That wasn't what I was aiming for.

I mean "Our elves are different" is the most basic orignal-setting element imaginable, and it sounded like you were arguing that that was somehow no longer D&D.

It isn�t D&D - the printed text that describes the 5th edition of Dungeons and Dragons as a game. Saying �our elves are different� is definitely not that text either, nor is it a reinterpretation because you are explicitly replacing part of the original text with your own.

And that�s fine! D&D tells you to do that, and has limited examples of how such a thing might be done.

But it�s not the essential text and core idea of D&D any more.

Now if you return to the original post of yours I responded to you weren�t saying that people would be playing a different elf in an adaptation of D&D. You were saying that people disavow engaging with the original text at all, that that is acceptable and were furthermore suggesting that their disavowal of engagement should somehow be taken as a weakness of the original text!

My response to you is that that is formally unacceptable to suggest that people can skate by without interpreting the original text, and that not interpreting the text is doing themselves and other players a disservice. It�s not about imagination. If you want to play the game you need to read the rules and follow them. If you all agree to change the rules then follow those.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:08

Splicer: Oct 16, 2006; from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Tremek posted:

PS I never said this and suspect you're just confused

You were using 5e's sales as evidence of why everything in 5e is above reproach, so I was using this metric to apply 4e's consistent (until Mearles took the reins) placement above all the competition, and indeed continued presence as a revenue stream, as either a refutation of your statement of 4e as a nadir or refutation of sales being the metric of "doing things right". I'm embarrassed that this fairly basic rhetorical gambit needed to be explained to you and I kind of feel bad for arguing with you now.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:09

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I don't really have a dog in the fight of whether or not D&D "has a setting", but if you are in the camp that says that D&D is "generic", then the Drow is a non-issue: drop the penalty, do whatever you want, and the player gets to play dark-skinned elves.

If you aren't, then the Drow should have penalties, because that's what the Drow have been established as, and we're right back to the question of "what kind of penalty could we apply that works better than what WOTC wrote-in themselves"

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:09

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009

sebmojo posted:

Jesus Christ

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:10

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

Endorph posted:

i understand you think talking like this makes you look smart, but it actually makes you look intensely, intensely stupid. also the d&d setting is a bunch of weird pseudo-racist tripe written by old white dudes who havent had an original thought since before et for the atari was released

I have an actual degree in English. Do you have a degree or other study in cultural studies as a modern field? If you don�t that�s fine, but don�t be pointlessly insulting to cover for your lack of engagement when concepts you�re not familiar with are being discussed. I�m not going to dumb down my argument because you want to play lowest common denominator.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:11

Conspiratiorist: Nov 12, 2015; 17th Separate Kryvyi Rih Tank Brigade named after Konstantin Pestushko
Look to my coming on the first light of the ~~fifth~~ ~~sixth~~ some day

gradenko_2000 posted:

I don't really have a dog in the fight of whether or not D&D "has a setting", but if you are in the camp that says that D&D is "generic", then the Drow is a non-issue: drop the penalty, do whatever you want, and the player gets to play dark-skinned elves.

If you aren't, then the Drow should have penalties, because that's what the Drow have been established as, and we're right back to the question of "what kind of penalty could we apply that works better than what WOTC wrote-in themselves"

Sunlight Sensitivity is a fine penalty for a nocturnal/underground race; any problem with it is more a problem with the core mechanic 'advantage' itself.

If you are in it just to play a black elf then palette swap High Elf and keep the mechanics the same.

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:13

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Conspiratiorist posted:

Sunlight Sensitivity is a fine penalty for a nocturnal/underground race; any problem with it is more a problem with the core mechanic 'advantage' itself.

agreed!

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:18

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Yeah disadvantage is just harsh for the modest advantages that being adrow conveys in 5e.

advantage and disadvantage is a fantastic mechanic, it's just over tuned here.

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 11:20 on Sep 13, 2018

# ? Sep 13, 2018 11:18

Endorph: Jul 22, 2009