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Kai Tave posted:In large part I think this was it, really. People were mad about 3E too, but there wasn't any sort of competing D&D-alike at the time that was a viable alternative for someone who wanted to continue playing a regularly supported AD&D2E clone, so the people who remained mad about 3E gradually faded into irrelevance without the presence of extensive online communities dedicated to supporting their tastes and publishers supporting their edition preferences, or simply just gradually transitioned over to playing 3E after a period of grumbling. With the 3E/4E changeover that was no longer the case. Paizo definitely stoked the flames but the backlash was happening before pathfinder existed, because those online communities were bigger, more hyperbolic, and troll-infested than Usenet. PF filled a hole that had already wrenched itself out of the earth. Bear lore and “I’m angry that you can just MAKE enemies hit themselves MY VERISIMILITUDE” were memes from the moment materials were previewed
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Sep 14, 2018 00:49
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Do the Dragonfoot forums still make people refer to 3e as The Edition That Shall Not Be Named?
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Sep 14, 2018 01:07
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All I can say is thank god that at least nobody lost their minds about D&D 5E being a thing.
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Sep 14, 2018 02:03
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:It absolutely can, if you're coming at it from the perspective of people who play pick-up games. People here constantly complain about how D&D pushes everything else out of the public eye; the same thing is true of editions. New edition comes out and after the initial transition period that's what people see, so that's what they play. Having a scaled-back public profile and fewer completely new people picking it up isn't the same thing as killing it. And I mean if we're talking about the reality of the situation, what large-scale stats are available point to 3e being both more widely played and having more interested potential players right now than 4e, so any initial preconceptions that switching editions "killed" 3e certainly turned out to be completely wrong.
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Sep 14, 2018 03:07
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Mister Olympus posted:Paizo definitely stoked the flames but the backlash was happening before pathfinder existed, because those online communities were bigger, more hyperbolic, and troll-infested than Usenet. Bear Lore made me want to play 4e, because it meant it didn't take itself too seriously. I want my core mechanics taken seriously and the fluff taken less seriously in my action-adventure games.
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Sep 14, 2018 05:18
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The Lore Bear posted:Bear Lore made me want to play 4e, because it meant it didn't take itself too seriously. I want my core mechanics taken seriously and the fluff taken less seriously in my action-adventure games. I don't know why people are so hung up on Bear Lore. It just means that Kobolds and poo poo are as common as actual fuckin' bears.
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Sep 14, 2018 05:39
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The Lore Bear posted:Bear Lore made me want to play 4e, because it meant it didn't take itself too seriously. I want my core mechanics taken seriously and the fluff taken less seriously in my action-adventure games. Bear Lore is obviously what a wandering angel or tropical islander or whatever would roll for if visiting a temperate forest.
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Sep 14, 2018 06:00
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Ferrinus posted:Bear Lore is obviously what a wandering angel or tropical islander or whatever would roll for if visiting a temperate forest. You’re making this too complicated. How often does an adventurer encounter goblins? All the time. They will also fight and kill at least one dragon in their lifetime. How often are bears a random encounter? Almost never, as most GMs would think they’re boring and mundane. People trawling the wilds are logically more familiar with Owlbears than Bear-Bears. It’s what they encounter more often.
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Sep 14, 2018 06:53
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Mister Olympus posted:Paizo definitely stoked the flames but the backlash was happening before pathfinder existed, because those online communities were bigger, more hyperbolic, and troll-infested than Usenet.
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Sep 14, 2018 10:47
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Haystack posted:Are you looking for detailed tactical naval combat, or just general support for life on and around ships? If it's the latter, then Spellbound Kingdoms might do you, particularly if you want to get into mass combat or run a well fleshed-out organization. Finally bit the bullet and got the SK pdf, and oh man the social stuff and the fighting styles are a thing of absolute beauty. The equipment rules are a bit half baked, and the layout is a mess, but that's just a result of it being one dude's insane passion project.
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Sep 14, 2018 11:40
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Bedlamdan posted:You’re making this too complicated. How often does an adventurer encounter goblins? All the time. They will also fight and kill at least one dragon in their lifetime. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D41SBcq1wYk
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Sep 14, 2018 12:39
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What company is the Steve Jobs of Marketing ruining these days?
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Sep 14, 2018 12:46
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whydirt posted:What company is the Steve Jobs of Marketing ruining these days? He's back with AEG last I heard, right after they sold L5R to Fantasy Flight, so I guess he spends most of his time coming up with bold new visions for marketing the latest version of Smash Up.
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Sep 14, 2018 12:49
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4e early on was deliberately vague about fluff to give people room to make up their own or whatever, but turns out people like the fluff. Note, along with fixed math, MM3 and Monster Vault have tons of fluff. Some are outright campaign hooks on their own.
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Sep 14, 2018 14:22
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Bedlamdan posted:All I can say is thank god that at least nobody lost their minds about D&D 5E being a thing. I did but no one noticed.
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Sep 14, 2018 14:53
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Note, along with fixed math, MM3 and Monster Vault have tons of fluff. Some are outright campaign hooks on their own. Correct, original MM1 and MM2 were garbage and those are much better.
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Sep 14, 2018 15:12
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Bedlamdan posted:All I can say is thank god that at least nobody lost their minds about D&D 5E being a thing.
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Sep 14, 2018 15:17
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Nuns with Guns posted:3e wasn't "killed" by 4e. The discontinuation of first-party support can't kill a game, especially one with as active of a third party community as 3e had. I'm also not following what sorts of play-styles 4e didn't support that prior editions did. First level being ultra-deadly for wizards and peasants? That part of chargen where you stack 3 base classes and 5 prestige classes for your ideal build? 3e's famously well-done and supported naval combat system?
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Sep 14, 2018 15:18
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A playstyle that 4e genuinely doesn't support is one where characters are disposable and easily replaced. Of course, 3e didn't support that either.Ghost Leviathan posted:4e early on was deliberately vague about fluff to give people room to make up their own or whatever, but turns out people like the fluff. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 15:55
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Moriatti posted:Correct, original MM1 and MM2 were garbage and those are much better. I keep reading this as Mega Man and wondering where all these terrible opinions came from.
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Sep 14, 2018 15:56
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I hated Megaman 1 but 2-4 were super epic
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Sep 14, 2018 16:03
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Halloween Jack posted:A playstyle that 4e genuinely doesn't support is one where characters are disposable and easily replaced. Of course, 3e didn't support that either. Arguably, Gamma World supports that kind of play due to how easy it is to make characters, but that's kind of a different beast.
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Sep 14, 2018 16:17
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Ghost Leviathan posted:4e early on was deliberately vague about fluff to give people room to make up their own or whatever, but turns out people like the fluff. 4e has better fluff because it's vague Edit: also 3.5 players handbook had no loving fluff at all and barely told clerics who the gods even were, i think there was a small chart. Elfgames fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Sep 14, 2018 |
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Sep 14, 2018 17:07
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Bedlamdan posted:How often are bears a random encounter? Almost never, as most GMs would think they’re boring and mundane. Counterpoint: 
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Sep 14, 2018 18:11
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Otherkinsey Scale posted:Counterpoint: 
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Sep 14, 2018 18:18
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Elfgames posted:4e has better fluff because it's vague One page with a lot of the space given over to extremely overdeveloped crest art. Didn't help that it was the stick in the mud boring as poo poo Greyhawk gods, either. Oh boy, St. Cuthbert.
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Sep 14, 2018 18:21
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AD&D 2E had an Ecology heading in the Monster Manual and both 3E and 4E, as much as they improved on the rules, were giant steps backwards in this respect.
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Sep 14, 2018 18:46
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Plenty of random encounter tables across editions have bears on them, but I've never ever made PCs fight something as mundane as a bear or some wolves.
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Sep 14, 2018 18:47
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Halloween Jack posted:Plenty of random encounter tables across editions have bears on them, but I've never ever made PCs fight something as mundane as a bear or some wolves. To be fair I think something like 90% of bear and wolf encounters in D&D lead to a player immediately trying to tame it and give it a dumb name/tiny hat.
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Sep 14, 2018 18:50
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When I think of good D&D enemies, I think of highly solitary creatures that usually run away at first sight of people.
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Sep 14, 2018 18:50
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Lacking documentaries and modern wildlife scholarship I have to admit my knowledge of bears would be pretty limited all told.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:02
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Is Fiasco good? I was looking for a short and easy narrative game. Most of my friends don't have experience playing characters, but it seems like it might be approachable enough to introduce to them.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:07
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A big, dumb, timid animal that runs away from my chicken coop when I throw a rock at it is a pretty dangerous encounter for a 3e fighter.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:08
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Dr Cheeto posted:Is Fiasco good? I was looking for a short and easy narrative game. Most of my friends don't have experience playing characters, but it seems like it might be approachable enough to introduce to them. Yes! Fiasco is amazing both as an intro to role-playing and an ideal pickup game for the nights when you have 2-3 hours but no adventure ready to go. If everyone is new, use one of the ready-made Fiascos. It'll get you playing ASAP and significantly shorten the playtime.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:26
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Dr Cheeto posted:Is Fiasco good? I was looking for a short and easy narrative game. Most of my friends don't have experience playing characters, but it seems like it might be approachable enough to introduce to them. Fiasco is a pretty good time. My only caveat is that, like most narrative games, it has an intended tone/genre and goes hard on it; most of the characters will be bad people, and all of them will get screwed over (usually by other PCs), so if that's not something your group is comfortable with, I'd go with something else.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:28
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Dr Cheeto posted:Is Fiasco good? I was looking for a short and easy narrative game. Most of my friends don't have experience playing characters, but it seems like it might be approachable enough to introduce to them. Fiasco is great and pretty easy for new players to get if they're into Cohen Bros films like Fargo or Burn After Reading or Guy Ritchie stuff like Snatch or Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:37
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theironjef posted:One page with a lot of the space given over to extremely overdeveloped crest art. Didn't help that it was the stick in the mud boring as poo poo Greyhawk gods, either. Oh boy, St. Cuthbert. My favorite thing about the Greyhawk pantheon is that it includes 1) a literal cowboy and 2) a god named after a car.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:37
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I recall some guy wrote a long essay about Greyhawk as an early medieval setting, with constant tension between good and evil and no cartoon-show good guys, etc. but it's also clearly got a bunch of stuff that was just Gygax and his friends and their in-jokey PCs.
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Sep 14, 2018 19:39
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Halloween Jack posted:I recall some guy wrote a long essay about Greyhawk as an early medieval setting, with constant tension between good and evil and no cartoon-show good guys, etc. but it's also clearly got a bunch of stuff that was just Gygax and his friends and their in-jokey PCs. Didn't they intially make Oerth by taking a map of Earth and flipping it upside down, with some of the in-univese cities replacing Chicago and Milwaukee?
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Sep 14, 2018 19:46
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ask me about the rich lore of the Magic Elf, Melf
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Sep 14, 2018 20:10
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