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WhatEvil posted:Well I've got a 4k telly so you know, may as well use it. Also any "How many people really need X" argument is a bit crap when it comes to camera equipment, no? You could say that about anything. Trying to help and educate on what to look for. Sure, we've got computers and TVs to watch videos or see photos on, but those are hypotheticals -- "wouldn't it be nice if?" -- but unless you've been doing that for years it's just a dream. And you're talking about investing in something that, ideally, shouldn't just sit on your shelf. If it's pro/semi-pro, then of course you would want to insist on the best/newest. The reality is, almost all of the cameras coming out now are like all of the new cars on the road -- there really aren't "bad" ones anymore; there's various flavors of good, and suitability based on use cases. Plus, you're coming up from a bridge camera from 2004, almost everything will be a step up. But more so than the megapixel count or video specifications -- put it simply, most all of the new cameras will do what you want more than adequately -- the bigger questions are finding a system and route for growth. Also, try to go to a shop and pick up and handle some of the cameras you're interested in with your own hands. The Internet and reviews can tell you a lot, but you just might wind up not liking the one that Everybody Loves This Year. The grip and feel and controls are more than half the battle. I'm not sure I'd recommend Canon, as it seems like their budget mirrorless EOS-M will be the replacement for the bottom end of the DSLR lineup soon enough. Sony has a much more robust lineup, and Fujifilm's X cameras would be a good recommendation as well if you really want to get into the art and creativity behind taking photos (and also if you don't want to futz around with RAW conversions).
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Sep 15, 2018 15:25
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harperdc posted:I'm not sure I'd recommend Canon, as it seems like their budget mirrorless EOS-M will be the replacement for the bottom end of the DSLR lineup soon enough. Sony has a much more robust lineup, and Fujifilm's X cameras would be a good recommendation as well if you really want to get into the art and creativity behind taking photos (and also if you don't want to futz around with RAW conversions).
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Sep 15, 2018 16:48
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harperdc posted:Trying to help and educate on what to look for. Sure, we've got computers and TVs to watch videos or see photos on, but those are hypotheticals -- "wouldn't it be nice if?" -- but unless you've been doing that for years it's just a dream. And you're talking about investing in something that, ideally, shouldn't just sit on your shelf. If it's pro/semi-pro, then of course you would want to insist on the best/newest. The reality is, almost all of the cameras coming out now are like all of the new cars on the road -- there really aren't "bad" ones anymore; there's various flavors of good, and suitability based on use cases. Plus, you're coming up from a bridge camera from 2004, almost everything will be a step up. But more so than the megapixel count or video specifications -- put it simply, most all of the new cameras will do what you want more than adequately -- the bigger questions are finding a system and route for growth. Oh yeah sure, and I appreciate the guidance, and I get that it's not strictly necessary to have 20MP or 4K video but what I'm thinking is "well, I'm obviously not spending £3k or whatever to get a full-frame top-notch camera but where's the sweet spot below like £1k, which I'd still be happy using for 10 years as a 'general use/holiday snaps' camera even if I don't end up getting the photography bug and upgrading". I could get something for £500ish new that does HD video and 16MP or for a bit more I could get 4K vid and 20+MP and each of those things does have advantages. Also yeah I don't think the Canon ones I've found in that sort of range have blown me away compared to the competition. And yeah I'm planning to go to a camera shop or two and try hands-on with some of these cameras before purchase. tino posted:I have been saying 6mp is enough for years. Yeah to be fair my old 4mp bridge camera has actually given me a lot of good usage - I used it on my honeymoon ~18 months ago. I just figure it's time for a step up (and also more generally, aside from the pixel count the pictures from that camera are quite noisy, but then I just looked it up ant it has a 1/2.5" sensor with a 6x crop factor).
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Sep 15, 2018 18:40
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cheese posted:Its actually kind of tragic as the cameras themselves in the EOS-M line are fine. The 50M is honestly a really solid camera: good viewfinder, nice flip out selfie style screen, pleasant combination of good grip and small body, etc. Canon's decision to moth ball the EOS-M line is a real shame. I don’t think they’re mothballing it, the M50 if anything has been such a success they are hopefully seeing it’s worthwhile to invest. And along with the EOS R they also announced a 32mm 1.4 prime lens which looks like it could be good as well. But the difference versus buying one of the lower-end EOS DSLRs is there isn’t any growth room for lenses, besides “adapt the EF lenses.” Which is okay for some - I have a couple decent EF lenses and they work shockingly well on my M3 - but not for new users coming in without gear.
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Sep 15, 2018 23:37
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harperdc posted:I don’t think they’re mothballing it, the M50 if anything has been such a success they are hopefully seeing it’s worthwhile to invest. And along with the EOS R they also announced a 32mm 1.4 prime lens which looks like it could be good as well. But the difference versus buying one of the lower-end EOS DSLRs is there isn’t any growth room for lenses, besides “adapt the EF lenses.” Which is okay for some - I have a couple decent EF lenses and they work shockingly well on my M3 - but not for new users coming in without gear. In Fuji talk, I embraced my emotional shopper side and just received the following lenses from Amazon: 7Artisans 35mm 1.2, 7 Artisans 55mm 1.4, Meike 35mm 1.7 and Meike 25mm 1.8. I'll be returning some or all of them, but wanted to get a feel for the cheap Chinese manual options. First impressions are that they are pretty nice!
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Sep 16, 2018 01:17
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Man, why doesn’t the Panaleica 8-18 start at 7mm? Would be a perfect lens.
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Sep 16, 2018 10:47
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Also, something that has been bugging me about MFT for years: no development of good small cameras. The GM1/5 were awesome, but current smallish bodies are so hampered. As I mentioned before, I’d like to have a walkaround camera again, something I can toss into a coat pocket with a pancake lens, but I don’t want to have to make too many compromises (no weather sealing, no IBIS and so on). There’s a cheap used GX9 near me but it’s just so obviously designed to a particular price point. Don’t even get me started on the PEN-F: awesome looks, good dimensions, nerfed functionality and high price. Fuji do it right: the rangefinder form factor doesn’t automatically mean the camera is cheaper or hampered in some way, it’s just a different form factor.
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Sep 16, 2018 10:56
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Wengy posted:Don’t even get me started on the PEN-F: awesome looks, good dimensions, nerfed functionality and high price. Fuji do it right: the rangefinder form factor doesn’t automatically mean the camera is cheaper or hampered in some way, it’s just a different form factor. Just curious, what functionality is missing on Pen-F?
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Sep 16, 2018 11:58
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I am a big fan of GM1/5/LX100. My theory of their demise is that there is only a small market for it. And people who want high quality compact camera don't want to share the niche with casual shooters. Therefore the market choose the fixed lens designs, and the zoom solutions all die off.
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Sep 16, 2018 12:02
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ugh whatever jeez posted:Just curious, what functionality is missing on Pen-F? Weather sealing. I don't think you'll get weather sealing a a small body. The em10 is pocketable and the GF series still exists in Japan iirc, they just didn't sell well here.
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Sep 16, 2018 12:28
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ugh whatever jeez posted:Just curious, what functionality is missing on Pen-F? Most of the stuff that makes the E-M1.2 cool, like weather sealing and speed, speed, speed.
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Sep 16, 2018 12:29
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Oh yeah, fair enough. Would love me some PDAF on Pen-F, AF on it just gives up whenever it gets a bit dark. Although I'm not sure it's fair to compare camera that was selling for <700 €, when it was still sold as new, with 2100 € camera 
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Sep 16, 2018 13:09
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ugh whatever jeez posted:Oh yeah, fair enough. Would love me some PDAF on Pen-F, AF on it just gives up whenever it gets a bit dark. Wasn't the launch price of the PEN-F like 1200 bucks? It's 600 bucks cheaper than the E-M1.2 in my country, so fair enough. But you know, my point is that I'd be completely fine with a price at the E-M1 level if the functionality were equivalent. Like, I prefer a more compact, lighter and stylish body, but not at the expense of (too many) features. I got the E-M1 even though I have always found it to be a bit ugly - but it's just a more fully-featured camera than the PENs, for no real reason. On the other hand, in the Fuji world, there is a rangefinder-styled model in the X-Pro 2 that's as capable as the bigger and heavier DSLR-styled models (slight discontinuities due to different upgrade roadmaps/timetables notwithstanding).
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Sep 16, 2018 13:38
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Wengy posted:Also, something that has been bugging me about MFT for years: no development of good small cameras. The GM1/5 were awesome, but current smallish bodies are so hampered. As I mentioned before, I’d like to have a walkaround camera again, something I can toss into a coat pocket with a pancake lens, but I don’t want to have to make too many compromises (no weather sealing, no IBIS and so on). There’s a cheap used GX9 near me but it’s just so obviously designed to a particular price point. Don’t even get me started on the PEN-F: awesome looks, good dimensions, nerfed functionality and high price. Fuji do it right: the rangefinder form factor doesn’t automatically mean the camera is cheaper or hampered in some way, it’s just a different form factor. Fuji's rangefinders are all huge compared to the Panasonic GM1/5. Everything is. The GX9 is just a GX85 with the new sensor and Bluetooth (Panasonic Japan sells them as GX7 mk2 and GX7 mk3), and the only thing that's still missing or "nerfed" is the line in for an external mic and weather sealing. The Fuji XE/XA aren't weather sealed either, and lack IBIS. So idk wtf you're going on about. Which Fuji rangefinders match the flagship XT specs?
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Sep 16, 2018 13:43
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X-Pro?
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Sep 16, 2018 14:06
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Digital Jesus posted:X-Pro? Those things are huge though. You might as well get a OMD-M1 mkii, it's as-or-more portable.
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Sep 16, 2018 14:10
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Finger Prince posted:Fuji's rangefinders are all huge compared to the Panasonic GM1/5. Everything is. The GX9 is just a GX85 with the new sensor and Bluetooth (Panasonic Japan sells them as GX7 mk2 and GX7 mk3), and the only thing that's still missing or "nerfed" is the line in for an external mic and weather sealing. The Fuji XE/XA aren't weather sealed either, and lack IBIS. So idk wtf you're going on about. Which Fuji rangefinders match the flagship XT specs? Isn't the X-Pro a flagship in its own right, like the X-T? It just doesn't seem that way right now because the latter was just updated. But yeah, even the X-Pro cameras are pretty big, that's true. Basically, I just wanted to point out that MFT lacks a truly high-end compact body and that Olympus and Panasonic appear to treat camera size as an indicator of quality, i. e. the flagships are huge and look like DSLRs whereas the more compact, rangefinder-styled cameras will be cheaper and lack a bunch of features. That's bad for people who prefer a smaller, lighter body but don't want to compromise on features. I mean, the GX9 has the same sensor as the much bigger, much more expensive G9, so all things being equal, you could easily get identical IQ out of it - but I guess the smaller camera is less 'pro' in Panasonic's eyes because it lacks a bunch of features and isn't weather-sealed.
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Sep 16, 2018 14:11
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Finger Prince posted:Those things are huge though. You might as well get a OMD-M1 mkii, it's as-or-more portable. Really? I guess I should check them out irl, I've probably underestimated the X-Pro's size.
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Sep 16, 2018 14:11
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Wengy posted:Isn't the X-Pro a flagship in its own right, like the X-T? It just doesn't seem that way right now because the latter was just updated. But yeah, even the X-Pro cameras are pretty big, that's true. Basically, I just wanted to point out that MFT lacks a truly high-end compact body and that Olympus and Panasonic appear to treat camera size as an indicator of quality, i. e. the flagships are huge and look like DSLRs whereas the more compact, rangefinder-styled cameras will be cheaper and lack a bunch of features. That's bad for people who prefer a smaller, lighter body but don't want to compromise on features. I mean, the GX9 has the same sensor as the much bigger, much more expensive G9, so all things being equal, you could easily get identical IQ out of it - but I guess the smaller camera is less 'pro' in Panasonic's eyes because it lacks a bunch of features and isn't weather-sealed. like physics get in the way of your desires. Weathersealing will impact heat dissipation as well as the ROF you want with the small bodies. See sony and their overheating when doing 30 mins of video (which are not even sealed iirc).
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Sep 16, 2018 14:39
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I know, I’m probably being a bit myopic here because I don’t really care about video. In the case of the GX9 I guess it was either 4K or weather-sealing and they opted for the former.
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Sep 16, 2018 14:46
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The Pen F is awesome, but it’s not a camera you buy for action or serious video stuff. I’d love PDAF just because but since I’m a AF-S person I can say I’ve missed many shots because there exists better autofocus systems out there. For reference it’s many miles faster than my X100S which I guess is sort of the same kind of camera. I’m sure the X-Pro is awesome as well but it’s much bigger.
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Sep 16, 2018 14:57
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As a casual user one thing I noticed when getting some used micro four thirds kit recently was that alot of the more expensive lens & bodies had an emphasis on weather sealing. These were all above my budget as a casual user but did make me wonder if I should be more wary of using my camera in rain? Is the weather sealing more to prevent fungus/etc for pricier equipment people plan to keep for 10+ years? (m10ii with an oly 25mm 1.8)
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Sep 16, 2018 19:48
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Got that cheap used Oly 75 I mentioned before. I’m really curious to see how it stacks up to the Nocticron.
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Sep 16, 2018 19:52
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Do any of you have experience with the weather sealing on an a7ii? If so would you say it is safe in similar conditions to an x-t2 or is it less reliable than that? I’ve been afraid to take it out in the rain since I don’t know how good the sealing is yet.
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Sep 16, 2018 21:26
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harperdc posted:I don’t think they’re mothballing it, the M50 if anything has been such a success they are hopefully seeing it’s worthwhile to invest. And along with the EOS R they also announced a 32mm 1.4 prime lens which looks like it could be good as well. But the difference versus buying one of the lower-end EOS DSLRs is there isn’t any growth room for lenses, besides “adapt the EF lenses.” Which is okay for some - I have a couple decent EF lenses and they work shockingly well on my M3 - but not for new users coming in without gear. Harper lives in Japan, should we tell him guys? 
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Sep 16, 2018 21:51
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Wengy posted:Wasn't the launch price of the PEN-F like 1200 bucks? It's 600 bucks cheaper than the E-M1.2 in my country, so fair enough. But you know, my point is that I'd be completely fine with a price at the E-M1 level if the functionality were equivalent. Like, I prefer a more compact, lighter and stylish body, but not at the expense of (too many) features. I got the E-M1 even though I have always found it to be a bit ugly - but it's just a more fully-featured camera than the PENs, for no real reason. On the other hand, in the Fuji world, there is a rangefinder-styled model in the X-Pro 2 that's as capable as the bigger and heavier DSLR-styled models (slight discontinuities due to different upgrade roadmaps/timetables notwithstanding). Fuji does a much better job of rolling out their new sensors - their mid-level bodies (X-T20, X-E3) got the new X-Trans III sensor pretty shortly after the release of the XPro2/X-T2. Meanwhile, Olympus's mid-range bodies (E-M5, E-P5) still don't have the 20MP sensor 2 1/2 years after the release of the Pen-F.
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Sep 17, 2018 00:22
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mudskipp posted:As a casual user one thing I noticed when getting some used micro four thirds kit recently was that alot of the more expensive lens & bodies had an emphasis on weather sealing. I've literally fell in a river with my weather sealed and nbd. A light misty rain is possible no good for yours but some large bead water eh. There are the cover bags if you'll be keeping it out.
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Sep 17, 2018 00:39
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rio posted:Do any of you have experience with the weather sealing on an a7ii? If so would you say it is safe in similar conditions to an x-t2 or is it less reliable than that? I’ve been afraid to take it out in the rain since I don’t know how good the sealing is yet. Err, it doesn't have any sealing? I might remember wrong, but wasn't it older A7 models where LCD could crap out with a hint of moisture.
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Sep 17, 2018 03:10
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ugh whatever jeez posted:Err, it doesn't have any sealing? I might remember wrong, but wasn't it older A7 models where LCD could crap out with a hint of moisture. From what I’ve read it does claim to be weather resistant.
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Sep 17, 2018 03:33
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How does the IBIS interact with optically stabilized lenses? Example: If you put a Sony FE 70-200mm f/2.8 GM OSS on an A7 III with IBIS, wouldn't they fight each other and cancel movement cancellation like two inverse-noise-cancelers creating noise? If the sensor moved up to correct your hand moving down, but the lens bent the image up as well, isn't that going to counteract the desired effect?
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Sep 17, 2018 15:56
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KennyG posted:How does the IBIS interact with optically stabilized lenses? I don't know how Sony does it, but Panasonic and Olympus have dual IS where the lens and sensor IS complement each other, and it works incredibly well.
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Sep 17, 2018 16:01
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Yeah supposedly the em1mk2 and 12-100mm have something like 6.5 stops worth of IS. It's nuts.
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Sep 17, 2018 17:44
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And if there's not a provision for that sync function, which not all versions of all systems have, then you choose one or the other, OIS or IBIS, and turn the other off.
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Sep 17, 2018 18:44
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KennyG posted:How does the IBIS interact with optically stabilized lenses? Sony lenses automatically handle this. The IBIS and OIS work together as certain angles go on the sensor and other corrections go on the lens. This even works with metabones adapters and Canon lenses with IS. No bodies conflict with this, so you won't have to worry about it.
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Sep 17, 2018 18:50
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All the steadyshot FE lenses on the a7 series communicate with the body and work in conjunction with IBIS to provide better stabilisation than either system alone.
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Sep 17, 2018 18:53
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From what I understand, even though it is labeled as 5 way stabilization for Sony, it is 3 in body and the other 2 come from a stabilized lens. Could be wrong though as it was late at night reading random google results.
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Sep 17, 2018 19:54
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rio posted:From what I understand, even though it is labeled as 5 way stabilization for Sony, it is 3 in body and the other 2 come from a stabilized lens. Could be wrong though as it was late at night reading random google results. If your lens doesn't have IS, the in-body stabilizer will work on all five axes on E-mount. If an image stabilized lens is attached, pitch/yaw go to the lens while x/y/rotate stick on the sensor. On a99ii there are some very old Minolta lenses that only get 3 axes on the sensor stabilizer, but otherwise almost all A-mount lenses get five axes, and it uses the same system as a7Rii. No first-party A-mount lenses have a stabilizer.
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Sep 17, 2018 23:59
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kefkafloyd posted:If your lens doesn't have IS, the in-body stabilizer will work on all five axes on E-mount. If an image stabilized lens is attached, pitch/yaw go to the lens while x/y/rotate stick on the sensor. Ah, I was reading about adapted lenses when I saw that so would that mean that lenses being used via a dumb adapter would have 3 axis IBIS?
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Sep 18, 2018 00:08
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Looks like used X-T2s in excellent condition are still going for around 800 bucks. How much would you expect that to fall as the X-T3's start shipping/we get into the holiday season or even after holidays?
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Sep 18, 2018 00:20
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rio posted:Ah, I was reading about adapted lenses when I saw that so would that mean that lenses being used via a dumb adapter would have 3 axis IBIS? That is correct, dumb adapted lenses only get 3 axes.
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Sep 18, 2018 00:29
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