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Lunatic Sledge posted:This didn't contribute anything to your argument. Programming a computer doesn't play into game design in and of itself, nor does it necessarily suggest experience with procgen OR community developed maps. It was pretty flagrantly just one-upsmanship to my comment about LBP and Mario Maker, which I personally cited as cases of people not being especially creative or producing high quality work en masse when given the tools. "well I made computers" isn't a retort to that experience, it just came off like dick measuring; it didn't shoot down what I'd said in any way, and may as well have been tHaT oNe SpOnGeBoB mEmE You see that I was responding to your dismissive comment, but when you do it its okay, when I do it in response it is completely unacceptable, and that isn't hypocritical?
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Sep 18, 2018 22:23
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Please stop quoting him. Even on ignore, seeing his name five times in a row is aggravating.
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Sep 18, 2018 22:24
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Zaphod42 posted:You see that I was responding to your dismissive comment, but when you do it its okay, when I do it in response it is completely unacceptable, and that isn't hypocritical? I wasn't being dismissive, I meant exactly what I said. I played Little Big Planet, and Mario Maker, two games built around community built maps. 80% of the maps sucked and 10% were levels that played the Lucky Star theme or something. To say that an average person with no history of game design is going to do better than pre-fab sections pulled from random pools via a method written by actual game designers is to give that average person way too much credit.
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Sep 18, 2018 22:26
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If y'all want more reasonable discourse blame yourselves. I tried to simply discuss the issues and then you poo poo on me. I didn't say anything about you guys that was a similar personal attack, and yet you guys are upset by what I said, and what you said is okay? Admit you're biased and being inconsistent. Should we both poo poo on each other or should we both hear each other out? Pick one. If you're gonna be mean don't act like you're also taking the high road. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 18, 2018 22:26
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I agree that bloodborne's implementation of Random gen stuff was very poorly executed. The concept of the Chalice dungeons, collecting them and using them to create modifiers for the dungeons you generate was a very good idea. The problem is that the dungeons themselves didn't have enough verticality, and they were all constrained to big square rooms because they're supposed to be tombs and caves and not like, a town, or a city underground or anything like that. It was a very half-baked idea that, if it was fully baked, would have been excellent. As is though, the effort they spent on it would have been spent better elsewhere. The idea that it being free content means that we should just be happy it's more of the game that we enjoy is very flawed, because you can apply that to a number of other half baked concepts and it wouldn't be true, so why would it be true here? Edit: I also don't think it's very controversial to say that randomly generated content, even though it was made by someone somewhere at some point, will never be able to match up in quality to handmade levels and set pieces. A computer cannot understand what makes something appealing to a player, it just does what the math tells it to do. If it's between randomly generated content or no content in one aspect of the game, then having a crappy idea executed well is fine by me. The problem is when the crappy idea is executed poorly, and we have numerous examples of randomly generated first person shooters being done very very wrong. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Sep 18, 2018 |
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Sep 18, 2018 22:28
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After a certain point, you have to honestly ask yourself: is everyone making GBS threads on me because everyone else is an rear end in a top hat and I'm the only reasonable one? Or is it possible that I could be the rear end in a top hat? Anyway, DoomyTurtle's gonna be great and I'm very excited to hear more details about multiplayer (esp. co-op).
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Sep 18, 2018 22:29
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Lunatic Sledge posted:I wasn't being dismissive, I meant exactly what I said. I played Little Big Planet, and Mario Maker, two games built around community built maps. 80% of the maps sucked and 10% were levels that played the Lucky Star theme or something. To say that an average person with no history of game design is going to do better than pre-fab sections pulled from random pools via a method written by actual game designers is to give that average person way too much credit. Sorry, but that just shows how easy it is to read tone that isn't there. You're talking about the issue itself so I shouldn't lump you in with the others. Tough when so many are ganging up to poo poo on you. Idk man, yeah people are dumb, but computers are only as smart as you have time to program them. You're right that the community produces a ton of poo poo too. So you need a good ranking system, some way to find those 10% maps where the creators give a poo poo and put in effort. Mario maker was hamstrung by lack of good browser options to find the good maps that did exist among the poo poo. But I maintain that with the same assets, procgen would be strictly worse than that 10%. And unless you put a LOT of time and testing into it, it'll be the same or even worse than the 90% too. Its often just not worth the effort in how little you get out of it. I mean they could just build like an infinite corridor if you just want to fight random enemies one after another, but it'd get old fast. I think without designer intent levels are just one space to fight in after another, at that point why not just fight waves of enemies in a room and then teleport to a different area from the campaign? Takes waaaaaay less work and the levels would look better and have better layouts, no?
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Sep 18, 2018 22:35
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CJacobs posted:Edit: I also don't think it's very controversial to say that randomly generated content, even though it was made by someone somewhere at some point, will never be able to match up in quality to handmade levels and set pieces. A computer cannot understand what makes something appealing to a player, it just does what the math tells it to do. If it's between randomly generated content or no content in one aspect of the game, then having a crappy idea executed well is fine by me. The problem is when the crappy idea is executed poorly, and we have numerous examples of randomly generated first person shooters being done very very wrong. Exactly.
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Sep 18, 2018 22:36
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CJacobs posted:I agree that bloodborne's implementation of Random gen stuff was very poorly executed. The concept of the Chalice dungeons, collecting them and using them to create modifiers for the dungeons you generate was a very good idea. Bloodborne, full stop, had a lot of elements that were poorly executed. I love it to death, and it's my favorite of the Souls-type-things, but there's a bunch of stuff that might be unfinished and a handful of things that are blatantly unfinished. It's on my list next to SaGa Frontier of "games I wish spent more time in the oven." And agreed, levels made by an actual development team are always going to shitstomp levels made by an algorithm. I just think the line gets blurrier when you start comparing (in a vacuum) levels made by careful procgen and levels made by my friend Michael.
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Sep 18, 2018 22:38
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:After a certain point, you have to honestly ask yourself: is everyone making GBS threads on me because everyone else is an rear end in a top hat and I'm the only reasonable one? Or is it possible that I could be the rear end in a top hat? Yeah but also consider that goons love to gang up and dunk on people, and will do so when they see an opinion they don't like without giving it consideration. I could easily get everybody to never poo poo on me by simply only posting popular things. Doom good! Shotguns good! Demons bad! But that's boring. Its the things that are more complicated and maybe not obvious that are worth actually talking about. Otherwise every thread is just a boring echo chamber. If I started this by saying "uh y'all idiots don't realize procgen sucks? Lol so dumb thunderbeast. I've been calling this thunderbeast 4. Because procgen is always dumb and so are you" then yeah, that'd be 100% on me. But I really didn't. The fact is some ideas people will take offense to no matter how you try to explain it. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Sep 18, 2018 |
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Sep 18, 2018 22:39
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Zaphod42 posted:If y'all want more reasonable discourse blame yourselves. I tried to simply discuss the issues and then you poo poo on me. I didn't say anything about you guys that was a similar personal attack, and yet you guys are upset by what I said, and what you said is okay? New copypasta
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Sep 18, 2018 22:43
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Zaphod42 posted:Seriously why are you all being dicks about this? Why'd you try to brag about being a computer programmer like a quarter of the forum is, when trying to defend the bogus concept of "procedural generation can never be better than a half implemented Doom 2016 mode"? Ya made it about yourself . Lunatic Sledge posted:Slapping together prefabs out of random pools has worked extremely well for a bunch of games, though It's a simple matter of, you first need the people doing your procedural generation to have good skills in designing by hand, before they can give you a procedural generation system that gives you good designs to play. A lot of projects out there just half-rear end procgen and tell you to take it or leave it, and you get poo poo worlds/levels/whatever that way, but that's not how things have to be.
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Sep 18, 2018 22:46
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Ugh looks like the thread is having a lighthearted conversation about imaginary things in a video game, better get in there and own them
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Sep 18, 2018 22:49
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fishmech posted:Why'd you try to brag about being a computer programmer like a quarter of the forum is, when trying to defend the bogus concept of "procedural generation can never be better than a half implemented Doom 2016 mode"? Ya made it about yourself . I wasn't bragging. As I already said (you're skimming my posts and jumping to conclusions about their content so not sure why I even try) that was responding tongue in cheek to his post that was directly above it. And I also didn't say that. Why did you say "zaphod is so smart" ? I can make up quotes and argue in bad faith too man, but there's no point. Just ignore me if that's how you're gonna be.
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Sep 18, 2018 22:49
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fishmech posted:It's a simple matter of, you first need the people doing your procedural generation to have good skills in designing by hand, before they can give you a procedural generation system that gives you good designs to play. A lot of projects out there just half-rear end procgen and tell you to take it or leave it, and you get poo poo worlds/levels/whatever that way, but that's not how things have to be. I'm having a hard time parsing this sorry, but if I get your meaning that's not what I said. You don't need hand crafted level making skills to make procgen, no. But I don't think its as simple as just, most procgen is lazy and could be better if they weren't lazy. You're right that comparing indies and AAA isn't 1:1 though. If Doom Eternal was going to be totally roguelike and procgen I think it could do that okay, but they'd want to either do that instead of a campaign or charge more money or something. Between roguelike doom and normal doom, I'd rather have normal doom So at that point I think the smart move would be more like a firefight mode using pieces of the campaign maps. But I do agree procgen doom maps that are good would be cool. I just really question how technically and economically feasible it is, what it would cost, what we would have to give up in return. Maybe not doing multiplayer would be enough to justify doing some roguelike mode on top of campaign? But then I still think I'd just prefer more campaign levels, like I said before.
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Sep 18, 2018 22:56
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Donovan Trip posted:Ugh looks like the thread is having a lighthearted conversation about imaginary things in a video game, better get in there and own them Ugh looks like Zaphod posted a minority opinion, better attack him personally for pages. I can play that game too Donovan.
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Sep 18, 2018 22:57
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Zaphod42 posted:Ugh looks like Zaphod posted a minority opinion, better attack him personally for pages. 
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Sep 18, 2018 23:00
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah but also consider that goons love to gang up and dunk on people, and will do so when they see an opinion they don't like without giving it consideration. The way you reply to almost every post asserting anything contrary by reiterating your own points with an increasingly condescending tone, writing several paragraphs per post at that. After sucking the air out of the thread, then complaining about being unfairly "ganged up on" and blaming everyone else for the level of discourse. That you seem to lack a lot of self-awareness is further encouraging people to "poo poo on you", h ope this helps!!
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Sep 18, 2018 23:02
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i don't care whos right or wrong about poo poo we wont know about until next videogame convention thing i just want to talk about doom
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Sep 18, 2018 23:05
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So I went ahead and re-read the last couple pages, and confirmed that Zaphod's newest meltdown started at this exchange:Son of Thunderbeast posted:lmfao forever at the idea that anything the iD team could come up with would be strictly worse than a good community snapmap Zaphod42 posted:If you think you can write an algorithm that generates better maps with snapmap assets than the community, quit your job now and sell the idea to IBM for $50 million dollars.  definitely a reasonable response, truly Zaphod is the master of the high road and we are being unfair to him
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Sep 18, 2018 23:05
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Time for a thread title change, me thinks. Or probably an upgrade, to be accurate.
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Sep 18, 2018 23:07
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Jack Trades posted:Time for a thread title change, me thinks. I propose DO5M: Doom good! Shotguns good! Demons bad! I hope someone has something better e: DO5M: Zaphod Eternal
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Sep 18, 2018 23:09
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I've been calling it Zaphod4
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Sep 18, 2018 23:10
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DO5M: Doomguy for Smash
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Sep 18, 2018 23:27
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Lunatic Sledge posted:DO5M: Doomguy confirmed for Smash
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Sep 18, 2018 23:28
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:slight tweak I don't want to get my heart broken again
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Sep 18, 2018 23:29
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Llamadeus posted:As a non-participant I'll point out that it probably has less to do with the opinion itself (no one really cares if proc-gen is good or not in some hypothetical implementation!!) and more to do with: But to be fair, when people are quote-replying to you, isn't that calling for you to respond back? Like this post itself, I was going to reply and be like "good point friend, I'll keep that in mind" but would that be sucking the air out of the thread? So I waited a bit, but I'm not sure it really makes a huge difference. I will try to go ahead and wait a few minutes in between, but that seems kinda frustrating if you're actually having an interesting conversation and its going places. If we can just be respectful to each other we can have a talk about whatever subject and even if we disagree its still fun. Also if people are posting about one thing a lot that doesn't mean you're not free to post about something else.  Thing is, if you really don't like someone's posting or the line of conversation, why do you quote-reply to them? Seems weird to me that people quote-reply my posts but when I quote-reply back that infuriates them. Yeah? Just also seems hypocritical to me. If you quote my post or call me out by name, to me that means you want to continue to have the conversation. If you don't, I guess you're just trying to get the last word in, but that's real confusing. The fact is my name is in the thread title so that just inherently gets people primed to dogpile. People like Donovan just look for whatever opportunity they can to be mean. Son of Thunderbeast posted:DO5M: Doom good! Shotguns good! Demons bad! I'm all for it.
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Sep 18, 2018 23:41
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the first DOOM Eternal review is in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfdC2ILLZok
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Sep 18, 2018 23:42
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Zaphod42 posted:I'm having a hard time parsing this sorry You seem to have a hard time parsing a lot of things. The main thing you don't understand is that procedural generation always involves handcrafting in the first place in order to be any good, especially in projects of this scale. That is the ultimate failing in your comprehension of the topic. Son of Thunderbeast posted:So I went ahead and re-read the last couple pages, and confirmed that Zaphod's newest meltdown started at this exchange: Like yeah, it's not even particularly impressive to outdo snapmap accomplishments with a new system using the same assets. What you can do in snapmap itself is super limited, really it levels the playing field between humans and a procgen system by a ton. And on top of that the community is absolutely filled with garbage snapmaps that barely work. And even the best maps have a lot of problems because of the snapmap limits.
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Sep 18, 2018 23:49
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:the first DOOM Eternal review is in: Uh oh. This is not so good news
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Sep 18, 2018 23:56
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I'm going to believe id didn't pay them enough money for a good review
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Sep 19, 2018 00:03
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Zaphod42 posted:I'm having a hard time parsing this sorry, but if This should have been the first and only thing you posted
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Sep 19, 2018 00:05
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I saw 65 new posts and thought that there were news of some kind. Nope, just dumb arguing. 
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Sep 19, 2018 01:13
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also an IGN review! \/\/  lol it might as well be
Son of Thunderbeast fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Sep 19, 2018 |
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Sep 19, 2018 01:15
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That's not an IGN review
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Sep 19, 2018 01:18
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id posted some mancubus concept art today~ https://twitter.com/DOOM/status/1042109267283771392
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Sep 19, 2018 01:19
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:also an IGN review! I closed it 5 seconds after hearing the guy's voice so it is exactly like an IGN review in that way Llamadeus posted:id posted some mancubus concept art today~ Finally Marphy Black can see the number of nipples Mancubi have in Doom Returnal, definitively
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Sep 19, 2018 01:21
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CJacobs posted:That's not an IGN review It could pass for a Polygon review lol
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Sep 19, 2018 01:22
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It really makes you feel like Spider-man
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Sep 19, 2018 01:22
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I'm super upset that I can't aim down the barrel of the guns in my Call-of-Duty/spiderman  crossover game.
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Sep 19, 2018 01:30
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