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I consider Yarnham time to be like time on the Discworld. It all proceeded in a neat straight line and everything made sense, then poo poo happened. Now it's all stitched together haphazardly. Events which happened hundreds of years ago also happened recently and probably more than once. People who died centuries ago are still alive because the moment when they died hasn't happened again yet.
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Sep 19, 2018 16:07
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Okay, this is a bit OT but it's driving me mad - what's the song you used for the Maria lore segment? I swear I've heard it before and can't place it.
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Sep 19, 2018 16:31
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CJacobs posted:
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Sep 19, 2018 16:56
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There are one or two bosses I would do before the DLC, because unfortunately doing the DLC first wrecks the challenge for the regular endgame.
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Sep 19, 2018 18:08
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Lord_Magmar posted:I'd say 100 is the most likely, if only because the Abandoned Hunter's Workshop has to be old enough to have faded from memory the way it has by modern times, but young enough for it to be contempary with the Healing Church, which is younger than Master Willem who even if he's extremely old I don't think he's 200 years old, 150 maybe.
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Sep 19, 2018 19:06
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Cardiovorax posted:I'd agree with that and even lean more towards a 50-80 year period, myself. The rise of the Healing Church is presented like something that happened within living memory, at least for some people. There's a clear sense of decay and degeneration present, so there's certainly a good amount of time passing here, but I'd say it all happened within a generation or two - enough for some to grow up seeing the Healing Church as something that was "always there," but also for the older citizens to remember where they came from and how they formed. There are even people who remember Old Yharnam burning and abandoned for that matter, as I believe there is a note in Yharnam Central about it. Djura also, whilst old, seems to be only one generation of hunters removed from the Player/Alfred/Gascoigne. I also think the burning of Old Yharnam, and the subsequent loss of the Pthumerian Chalice, is what leads to the Choir and Mensis Scholars splitting the Healing Church, with the Choir finding Ebrietas and thus a fresh source of blood to successfully transcend and the School of Mensis doing something else. There’s honestly no broken timeline stuff in the main game proper to my mind, everything we see outside the Nightmare Realms is logically sound for what we know of the timeline. Old Yharnam still burns because of the beasts and Hunters still living in it, not because time has contorted. Cainhurst is nearly frozen in time on the night of the Massacre because nobody has actually been able to clean up. So on and so forth, the Nightmare Realms are different because they’re largely formed of memories of other places. Bloodborne is actually way easier to read and interpret compared to Dark Souls, there’s no need for convoluted time bending outside the Nightmares and in general feels like it has way less ambiguity about what has happened and who is at fault.
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Sep 19, 2018 22:44
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Yeah, those are good points. The sheer number of people who were there for everything that happens in the backstory and who you actually get to talk to, from the discovery of the blood by Byrgenwerth scholars to the present day, kind of excludes any timelines longer than a single human lifetime. Less, probably. Gherman is stuck in a dream so there may be some degree weirdness there, but it doesn't seem to be much.quote:Bloodborne is actually way easier to read and interpret compared to Dark Souls, there’s no need for convoluted time bending outside the Nightmares and in general feels like it has way less ambiguity about what has happened and who is at fault.
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Sep 19, 2018 23:59
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The Byrgenwerth Scholars discovery is the backstory part where you start losing eyewitness accounts, we know Laurence and Willem were definitely part of it. As was Rom supposedly, and Gehrman based on the fact he cries for Laurence in his sleep. Beyond that it’s hard to say anyone else alive was there for that. Annalise maybe but she also wasn’t paying attention to Byrgenwerth until the renegade brought her the forbidden blood. I’d say at most 150 years ago was when the discovery was made, but more likely 60-100 years ago to account for Willem and Logarius’ being really decrepit old men. As presumably both were 30-40 at the time. One of the ways I actually work out the timeline is tracking Hunter Generations. I think in the story there’s about 4-5 distinct generations of hunters encountered depending on how you count, and you meet at least one of each generation, either as an NPC or a boss. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Sep 20, 2018 |
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Sep 20, 2018 01:08
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I never noticed it before, but the candles around the room in Maria's boss arena light up as you walk towards her.
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Sep 20, 2018 06:14
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HexiDave posted:I never noticed it before, but the candles around the room in Maria's boss arena light up as you walk towards her. Wait, really? Ooh, that's choice subtle dream spooky.
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Sep 20, 2018 15:42
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Jetrauben posted:Wait, really? Ooh, that's choice subtle dream spooky. Can see it happen here on the left and right (timestamped from CJacob's vid): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8ceirQAhz8&t=690s
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Sep 20, 2018 16:07
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Unfortunately that's just the draw distance of the candles, you can see them blinking in and out during the fight. But it is a cool effect, so I'm going to pretend they did it on purpose. 
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Sep 20, 2018 16:10
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CJacobs posted:Unfortunately that's just the draw distance of the candles, you can see them blinking in and out during the fight. But it is a cool effect, so I'm going to pretend they did it on purpose. Ah, the same thing happens with flaming enemy weapons in the Chalice Dungeons, most noticeably there is a type of Pthumerian Knight that does it really obviously.
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Sep 20, 2018 16:15
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CJacobs posted:Unfortunately that's just the draw distance of the candles, you can see them blinking in and out during the fight. But it is a cool effect, so I'm going to pretend they did it on purpose. Yeah, that's what I originally figured, but it seems so well setup as to not be an accident. It stops happening right as you get to Maria - someone did the math or got really lucky.
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Sep 20, 2018 16:59
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 Dead Space's tenth anniversary is on October 13th! Let's play the whole drat thing in one shot! I'll see you tomorrow at 8:30a central for twelve hours of Dead Space!
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Sep 30, 2018 00:29
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Love Dead Space. The sequel got a bit fucky, but the gameplay is just solid as hell.
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Oct 2, 2018 13:38
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 Eat your heart out, Howard!
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Oct 4, 2018 01:44
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I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto.
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Oct 4, 2018 02:08
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Talk about wearing your influences on your sleeve. What does the number in parentheses mean when you collect the blood gem?
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Oct 4, 2018 03:17
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That's one of the few things I do know about them! Basically, the number next to the name determines its 'level'. Gem stats are assigned in a range, and the level determines the starting point of the range. i.e. a Triangle Fire Gem (5) will have much higher base stats than a Triangle Fire Gem (4). From there it is randomized within that range, which is what gives chalices a bit more replayability. Two Triangle Fire Gem (5)s won't have exactly the same stats, but they will be within the same general stat range, with the idea being that you wanna farm them until you get one on the upper end.
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Oct 4, 2018 03:25
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This is of course complicated by the fact that Blood Gems also have a sharpness rating, which goes up to 16 I think? Which also does roughly the same thing.
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Oct 4, 2018 06:29
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I believe the HP Lovecraft Historical Society has summarized his likely reaction to the fishing village pretty well, in carol form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tTHn2tHhcI
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Oct 4, 2018 07:27
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I have played through three soulsborne games now. Still nothing as terrifying as the whale giants.
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Oct 4, 2018 11:47
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Their slip and slide attack is somehow both funny and terrifying.
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Oct 4, 2018 12:00
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Well, well, well... that well. That drat well. It is not a good place. It is not a well well. (I goddamned hated it and it gave me nearly as much trouble as the Cleric Twins did back in the church. That slip and slide attack the whale giants do might look silly, but when you've nowhere else to go... it hurts badly.)
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Oct 4, 2018 13:51
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bony tony posted:Their slip and slide attack is somehow both funny and terrifying. Fun fact you can parry nearly the entire slide, and honestly I find parrying the whale shakes the easiest answer to them. A few points in the video, Rakuyo has no bloodtinge scaling, only Skill, which is part of the story behind it because Maria found the bloodblades used by other vile bloods disgusting, as far as I can find out Simon’s Bowblade cannot parry with shots, but the ranged backstab in it’s own is hella powerful, it’s also the highest damage ranged attack in the game at high bloodtinge. Now onto lore stuff, personally I maintain a solid stance of Laurence is a giant rear end in a top hat and a lot of the problems in the game are his fault, the Hunter’s nightmare included, and that Maria visited the Nightmare when alive and discovered the Fishing Hamlet same as the player and Simon, easier in fact because Maria and her Nightmares of the Research Hall hadn’t become part of the Hunter’s Nightmare at the time. This discovery led her to throw her blade down the well and become the Lady of the Astral Clocktower because Maria’s story to me is one of constantly finding her peers to be people she cannot stand beside in good conscience so she finds a new purpose. Until the Cainhurst Massacre and the research hall drive her to suicide or some Executioner sneaks up on her in the real world. I also think the Hunter’s Dream was formed after Maria’s Death, the why of all this will have to wait for a bit for now I can say that my interpretation of the timeline and events might differ from the majority consensus. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 15:28
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I still think that Maria is not a part of the nightmare. She came to it much like how we did and something she saw in it broke her to such a degree that she set herself up as a road block for anyone pushing deep inside of it.
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Oct 4, 2018 15:46
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Hunt11 posted:I still think that Maria is not a part of the nightmare. She came to it much like how we did and something she saw in it broke her to such a degree that she set herself up as a road block for anyone pushing deep inside of it. Given her being a corpse when first encountered and how specific the research hall is for her life I think she kind of has to be part of it myself, alao the nature of the curse as I personally believe it would make her a prime target. But that does remind me of something I forgot, you can actually stand in front of the Astral Clocktower in the real world, it’s on the right side of the bridge between the Church Hunter Workshop and the Orphanage. Interestingly that bridge has the sound of rain even though it is not raining in game. Which we’ll, it’s raining in the Fishing Hamlet so the walls of reality are possibly thinner than we thought previously, and we thought them pretty thin. Also I think that it’s likely Maria after she died in the real world was placed in the coffin at the end of the Clocktower beneath the clock, which has the flowers on it when you walk through into the Fishing Hamlet in the Nightmare, mostly because I can’t imagine anyone else being buried there and I have a different theory as to who is buried where you find the Old Hunter’s Bone, notably the same grave as the Hunter’s Nightmare lantern selection. They also didn’t add the rain sounds at the bridge with the DLC as far as I Kinow, it’s always been there. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 15:53
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Cut content does show her to be alive originally and she could just as easily be playing dead knowing that without the clock face or whatever it is that she drops that no one can get past her.
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Oct 4, 2018 15:56
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According to cut content, there were originally supposed to be two bits of DLC, the Hunter's Nightmare with the Fishing Hamlet and the Research Hall (which probably didn't take place in the Dreamlands). The Research Hall just makes more sense to take place in the real world, since nothing nightmarish happens. You're inside, and you don't see any hosed up poo poo (beyond the usual Bloodborne stuff). Maria was originally an NPC you could talk to, who talked to you in a similar way to the Maiden Astraya in Demon's Souls or Lady Friede from Dark Souls 3. "What the hell are you doing here, go away. Haven't you done enough?" You left, Simon killed her offscreen, and when you came back it was the tableau from the game, followed by the bossfight.
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Oct 4, 2018 16:45
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You could also kill her yourself and get the fight that way, but cut content can’t inform current understanding, only potential intent. So as it stands we see Maria dead, and the prompt is to interact with a corpse, she herself makes mention to the fact she is a corpse and the Hunter’s Nightmare is full of Hunters who have died and are being “punished” for all eternity. There’s one other fact that supports this but it revolves around the true nature of the Curse and so will have to wait. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 17:07
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One thing of note is that you are sorta going backwards through time in this nightmare. You have the blood-crazed hunters in yharnam, then you go back to the era of retired maria and astral clocktower experiments, then you end up in the fishing hamlet, devastated by the very first byrgenwerth hunters before the healing church had formed.
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Oct 4, 2018 17:41
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There goes Simon, the best NPC. Also kinda ironic that the bow he was mocked for is pretty much superior to every gun in the game except arguably the Evelyn, which isn't even a Church weapon.
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Oct 4, 2018 19:38
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did anyone else hear singing in the well or was it just me? I've played the game so I think I know what its from but I've never noticed the singing.
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Oct 6, 2018 04:32
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No, there was singing. There's a secondary reason why that well is terrible.
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Oct 6, 2018 04:56
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la, la........ la la la, la la........
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Oct 6, 2018 05:06
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Going back to the Research facility for a second, do we never get to help out that one patient at the start who's looking for her eyes? 
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Oct 12, 2018 16:06
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Nope. Something tells me she doesn't have any eyes left to find anyway.
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Oct 12, 2018 16:38
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Do we get any evidence on whether or not the Research Hall is the nightmare version of a really existing place, or it was actually a healing church blacksite conveniently located in a place only accessible through eldritch means?
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Oct 12, 2018 16:53
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I think the Research Hall was an actual place IRL, but the one in the Nightmare Realm is obviously made of Maria's (at the very least) regrets and self-loathing.
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Oct 12, 2018 23:16
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