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I think whenever you see "called "centrist," said with a venom of a racial slur." it's basically always time to close up shop. "People being mean to me for my broken (or percieved broken) political beliefs is exactly as bad as generations of systemic racial (sexual/gender/religious/etc) oppression" is a kind of dogwhistle argument at this point that someone's not arguing in good faith or else has a POV so warped any debate is pointless.
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Sep 23, 2018 00:32
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I had no idea i was the only non 'cishet white dude' to be critical of them. Even weirder my gender/sexual orientation, race, or sex isn't common knowledge.
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Sep 23, 2018 00:37
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Also for all he goes "Oh, minorities know you have to ally with unsavory people to get things done" it's really interesting that there aren't any minority identified groups as part of your allies. It's all just groups that would mostly be made of white people. Your cyborgs don't have to form an uneasy detente with, like, the Black Panthers, just rich business libertarians and the religious right.
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Sep 23, 2018 00:44
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I mean I've heard, perhaps incorrectly, that the whole militia/fundie/one-percent/tankie thing that was heavily previewed during the Kickstarter isn't as big of a thing in the actual finished product, but if that's the case it raises the question of why he chose to emphasize that aspect of things so much.
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Sep 23, 2018 00:51
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Kai Tave posted:I mean I've heard, perhaps incorrectly, that the whole militia/fundie/one-percent/tankie thing that was heavily previewed during the Kickstarter isn't as big of a thing in the actual finished product, but if that's the case it raises the question of why he chose to emphasize that aspect of things so much. I thought I'd heard it was a weird balancing act of avoiding them going "too" extreme?
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Sep 23, 2018 00:56
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Anniversary posted:I thought I'd heard it was a weird balancing act of avoiding them going "too" extreme? dwarf74 posted:I finally got my softcover of Sigmata. That's all I know from one of the posters here who ordered a copy so 
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Sep 23, 2018 01:03
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Kai Tave posted:That's all I know from one of the posters here who ordered a copy so Basically, they are all allies of convenience and will almost inevitably turn on you and each other. They're not the good guys; they're the factions you might play against one another or who might give you support. e: No idea why he made them such a prominent part of his kickstarter. A lot of it is cool poo poo like "television elementals" which would have been way more kickass as your selling point. And the guy seems pretty douchey so maybe he was all "but mah world building!" dwarf74 fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 01:18
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dwarf74 posted:The factions are there and it's part of it, but it's not like Vampire or whatever where your character is from one of them well that's pretty much what i was expecting from the start and i still think it's dumb and kinda lovely
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Sep 23, 2018 01:23
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dwarf74 posted:The factions are there and it's part of it, but it's not like Vampire or whatever where your character is from one of them Right, I got that much even from the Kickstarter previews where one of the bits being previewed was a sample adventure where you as the resistance super-cyborgs were having to convince your herd of dumb idiot cats what to do with a bunch of immigrants. I don't think anybody here was necessarily confused on that point so much as why those particular factions were the ones chosen to be your allies of convenience in the first place. Are there other factions to choose from, like the aforementioned Black Panthers? Or is it just those four and it's basically up to you to go "actually I don't really feel like teaming up with the religious right and people who think Stalinist purges were actually cool and good?" Because if it's just those four groups then honestly it really does seem to me like he deliberately chose four factions he knew would get pushback in a game about fighting ambiguously-defined generic brand fascists so he could then turn around and play this "oho clearly you aren't interested in REAL revolution if you aren't willing to hold your nose and work with people who'd gladly throw you under the bus for being gay/poor/a minority, you just want to be ideological purists and call centrists mean names" card afterwards.
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Sep 23, 2018 01:25
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It takes a supreme act of self delusion for literally any of his factions except the tankies to make sense as opposition to the right-wing fascist government post 2016 election so
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Sep 23, 2018 01:30
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Berkshire Hunts posted:It takes a supreme act of self delusion for literally any of his factions except the tankies to make sense as opposition to the right-wing fascist government post 2016 election so The reasoning I saw being used for this is that his game is set in the 1980s and therefore it's not the same political landscape as the modern day, except I'm pretty sure that the religious right and survivalist militia types had some extremely similar opinions regarding the sorts of people that this in-universe fascist government is down on even back in the 80s.
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Sep 23, 2018 01:37
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I mean, I have no idea what his motivation was for picking those factions. I wish I had the pdf. I'd post some excerpts. Instead I have the softcover, which is a huge pain in the rear end all around - both to read and to quote. I don't really feel ready to comment much more right now, and don't have the desire yet (if ever) to get into serious debates about it. But so far it does seem to handle everything much better and with a stronger moral compass than I was anticipating.
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Sep 23, 2018 01:40
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dwarf74 posted:I mean, I have no idea what his motivation was for picking those factions. i'm going to give him a general benefit of the doubt and say that those are just the extremists that he's aware of
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Sep 23, 2018 01:48
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Kai Tave posted:The reasoning I saw being used for this is that his game is set in the 1980s and therefore it's not the same political landscape as the modern day, except I'm pretty sure that the religious right and survivalist militia types had some extremely similar opinions regarding the sorts of people that this in-universe fascist government is down on even back in the 80s. Yeah & also regardless of when it’s set the campaign happened in 2017 after we had already seen the real world analogue to all those factions pretty much not give a poo poo e: if not enthusiastically embrace
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Sep 23, 2018 01:53
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dwarf74 posted:I mean, I have no idea what his motivation was for picking those factions. Wait, did the hardcopy pledge tiers not come with a complimentary pdf copy or something? Weird.
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Sep 23, 2018 02:00
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Kai Tave posted:Wait, did the hardcopy pledge tiers not come with a complimentary pdf copy or something? Weird. I think he sent out a $5 coupon for it or something to physical-only backers but eh.
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Sep 23, 2018 02:12
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dwarf74 posted:I mean, I have no idea what his motivation was for picking those factions. I'm going to push back on you here, the first thing we see of any of the factions is an opening piece of fiction where one of the tankies is basically, "Well GOLLY GEE, we sure did help the fascists by being too divisive with our rhetoric, we forced people right into their arms. This is partially on us." And it doesn't get better from there.
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Sep 23, 2018 02:50
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 The problem with this is that he says you shouldn't try to "reason with" or "debate" fascists, but then ...  ... he immediately starts debating fascists!   Now as someone from the global south, this poo poo in particular really gets on my nerves. The point of opposing American interventionism isn't to give so-called dictators a free pass, it's to admit that nothing America will do will make it any better. If believing that boots on the ground, drone strikes, and Tomahawk missile launches is not in the best interests of the Syrian people makes me an """Assadist""", loving fine, call me an Assadist. Oh yeah, and good job falling so hard for State Department propaganda that you're willing to believe the Sandinistas are the problem again, three decades after Reagan. Are we sure you're not the fascist-supporter, here?
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Sep 23, 2018 03:00
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"In conclusion, anti-fascism is a land of contrasts."
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Sep 23, 2018 03:05
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gradenko_2000 posted:Oh yeah, and good job falling so hard for State Department propaganda that you're willing to believe the Sandinistas are the problem again, three decades after Reagan. Are we sure you're not the fascist-supporter, here? this guy and his game sound bad but man it does not sound like you are the person to prove him wrong
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Sep 23, 2018 03:15
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BinaryDoubts posted:The thread is... hmm. He basically calls out cishet white leftists for being the main opposition to the game, in the classic "leftist purity tests will destroy any popular movement" sort of way. He also claims that the people from marginalized groups that he spoke to "got it" and understood the importance of allying with different, non-ideologically-pure groups to achieve political aims. As someone who falls into a couple of marginalized categories that'd be hurt by allying with his proposed factions, it's okay if I say he can go gently caress himself, right?
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Sep 23, 2018 03:23
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So he tries to position himself as "the good CisHet White Dude", casting his critics as almost exclusively "the bad CisHet White Dudes" (literally saying "a single exception", which is so much horseshit), patting himself on the back for telling everyone what's what while simultaneously decrying how CisHet White Dude ~allies~ tend to steal platforms and make things about themselves. A+  super double-good job my Most Woke Dude.
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Sep 23, 2018 03:23
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That Old Tree posted:So he tries to position himself as "the good CisHet White Dude", casting his critics as almost exclusively "the bad CisHet White Dudes" (literally saying "a single exception", which is so much horseshit), patting himself on the back for telling everyone what's what while simultaneously decrying how CisHet White Dude ~allies~ tend to steal platforms and make things about themselves. I was real tempted to touch the poop on that twitter thread about being the only one. Nuns with Guns posted:As someone who falls into a couple of marginalized categories that'd be hurt by allying with his proposed factions, it's okay if I say he can go gently caress himself, right? 
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Sep 23, 2018 03:26
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BinaryDoubts posted:That too. The BernieBro defence is a little played out at this point, I think. The what.
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Sep 23, 2018 03:33
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I also think it's at least a little telling that he waited until after the Kickstarter was done and funded and locked before he started really letting everybody who was critical of what he was showing know what he thinks of them. I mean yes, it's definitely good business sense to be polite for the sake of paying customers rather than going straight for "oh so you think working with religious fundies and the 1% against fascism is dumb, well you must be the REAL reason fascism prevails" but it isn't doing a lot to dissuade me from my suspicions that this guy was definitely angling for some sort of gotcha from the outset.
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Sep 23, 2018 03:38
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gradenko_2000 posted:Now as someone from the global south, this poo poo in particular really gets on my nerves. The point of opposing American interventionism isn't to give so-called dictators a free pass, it's to admit that nothing America will do will make it any better. If believing that boots on the ground, drone strikes, and Tomahawk missile launches is not in the best interests of the Syrian people makes me an """Assadist""", loving fine, call me an Assadist. Agreed on all counts.
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Sep 23, 2018 03:42
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:this guy and his game sound bad but man it does not sound like you are the person to prove him wrong go gently caress yourself dude
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Sep 23, 2018 03:53
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:this guy and his game sound bad but man it does not sound like you are the person to prove him wrong now this is roleplaying
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Sep 23, 2018 03:54
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"You mean you aren't literally sacrificing your own children and draining their blood into a bejeweled chalice to summon the gnostic representation of Dick Cheney to kill Hitler's ghost? Then you're part of the problem bucko!"
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Sep 23, 2018 03:54
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Elfgames posted:go gently caress yourself dude no, gently caress you, rear end in a top hat, and anyone else who thinks that murdering protesters is cool as long as it's a guy with the right enemies doing it
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Sep 23, 2018 03:56
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Kurieg posted:"You mean you aren't literally sacrificing your own children and draining their blood into a bejeweled chalice to summon the gnostic representation of Dick Cheney to kill Hitler's ghost? Then you're part of the problem bucko!" I'd watch this music video.
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Sep 23, 2018 03:56
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I think the weirdest thing about Sigmata's dumb factions is that it has the easiest RPG fix in the world, and the author was too dumb/lazy to take it. If your premise for a tabletop game is "you have to ally with four different factions to help overthrow the Greater Evil," write more than four factions god drat. Write a dozen factions, and let the players pick which four matter during play! Or even before play, the GM could pick just four to exist this time around and the rest do not, which adds some replay value to the game and gives the players/GM more control over their version of the setting. And it also avoids this thing where the author has been painting themselves as a centrist nazi sympathizer without even realizing it because he's so far up his own rear end.
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Sep 23, 2018 04:01
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gnome7 posted:I think the weirdest thing about Sigmata's dumb factions is that it has the easiest RPG fix in the world, and the author was too dumb/lazy to take it. Or the lazy route: don't write the factions, just write mechanics for them and give a list of possible things the mechanics line up with. Your's is the better way, definitely. e: Do the factions even have their own mechanics?
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Sep 23, 2018 04:03
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just off the top of my head, some factions for an alt-80s america that are more believable would be the black panthers, weather underground, and rainbow coalition. if we're going full alt-history you add in the cornbread communists or something
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Sep 23, 2018 04:09
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Serf posted:just off the top of my head, some factions for an alt-80s america that are more believable would be the black panthers, weather underground, and rainbow coalition. if we're going full alt-history you add in the cornbread communists or something pretty sure 80's techno communists were a thing
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Sep 23, 2018 04:14
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Redneck Revolt being a faction would be cool. I have a friend with them
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Sep 23, 2018 04:19
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Elfgames posted:pretty sure 80's techno communists were a thing true, i would just like some attention for the alabama communists. they're rarely discussed
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Sep 23, 2018 04:33
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gnome7 posted:I think the weirdest thing about Sigmata's dumb factions is that it has the easiest RPG fix in the world, and the author was too dumb/lazy to take it. Look it'd be a lot of work to interview one person as a reference point for more than 4 factions. It'd be like 20 people he'd have to talk to. e- Okay I went and looked at the whole tweet thread on this now because I was curious  Is he throwing shade at us here, or were there other forums where people saw through Nuclear Take: The RPG? Also, congrats everyone here who backed out or expressed regret at backing it. You've turned your back on internationalism: 
Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 04:49
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This guy is loving clueless.
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Sep 23, 2018 05:04
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"I am incredibly NOT MAD at pledge droppers. They're just hapless patsies for nationalist fascists and I wish them well. OuO"
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Sep 23, 2018 05:14
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