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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:idk if yall remember but until these rose emoji succdems showed up the american left consisted of 6 greybeards grumbling at each other in an empty classroom for about 80 years Ok, so we shouldn't pressure them to move even further left because you're afraid that might be unpopular? If the definition of socialism in the United States is the Nordic Model, then that's inherently problematic because the Nordic Model is already failing.
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Sep 23, 2018 07:13
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Slanderer posted:so what do you want to do, besides make posts that convince no one of anything? Nice try, officer.
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Sep 23, 2018 07:14
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Slanderer posted:late stage capitalism, like fusion power, has always been 10 years away Buddy we're living in late stage capitalism.
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Sep 23, 2018 07:14
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It's okay, we can fix this, by 2074 there'll be 2 DSA senators and 6 house reps at the West Virginia Coast Congressional House, dedicated 2070
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Sep 23, 2018 07:16
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Ok, so we shouldn't pressure them to move even further left because you're afraid that might be unpopular? If the definition of socialism in the United States is the Nordic Model, then that's inherently problematic because the Nordic Model is already failing. let's pressure them to move further left to PSL, a failed organization full of rapists, FBI informants and divorced fathers.
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Sep 23, 2018 07:16
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join today https://pslweb.zone
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Sep 23, 2018 07:16
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ShriekingMarxist posted:It's okay, we can fix this, by 2074 there'll be 2 DSA senators and 6 house reps at the West Virginia Coast Congressional House, dedicated 2070 not with that attitude we won't
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Sep 23, 2018 07:16
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Slanderer posted:let's pressure them to move further left to PSL, a failed organization full of rapists, FBI informants and divorced fathers. You're an idiot, dude.
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Sep 23, 2018 07:18
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:ShriekingMarxist is making a very simple and straightforward claim that social democracy isn't going to work and it's naive to think of that as the ultimate political horizon, which is basically true for all the reasons we've already gone over. That doesn't mean "don't do anything except organize swamp maoist cadres." maybe im an idiot and im too easily swayed by seeing things being successful. this new dem soc left since trumps election is seemingly the first time the left has had any sort of growth or success in america since the New Left, and it just seems incredibly stupid and counterproductive to complain about its inadequacies while offering nothing different than a return to the left before its rise, which clearly did not work. america is not in a revolutionary moment until we enter another capitalist crisis and imo its better to have a stronger, more popular left even if it is inadequately radical than to have a smaller, irrelevant but appropriately radical left because I think a capitalist crisis will itself help radicalize them if theyre at least open to leftist ideas. i dont think getting DSA people elected will bring abotu socialism, but it is a very good tool to bring awareness to the movement and recruit supporters - see the massive growth after AOC, etc. and maybe they can alleviate some of the more brutal evils of capitalism in the meantime with whatever power they can win.
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Sep 23, 2018 07:20
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Buddy we're living in late stage capitalism. Late stage capitalism is a doomsday cult fixation for posters. the system will soon collapse, so instead of worrying about the physical world, we should concern ourselves with the spiritual world (forums) instead
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Sep 23, 2018 07:20
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Here's the thing about the progressive resurgence; okay let's hold the Nordic model up as a place we want to go, all of those places are seeing their services and systems assailed by capitalist interests as global finance tailspins and keeps making GBS threads its pants by being overly greedy. They're not going to find another third world population to exploit, so everything is furniture re-arrangement and austerity until the revolts start. The underlying disease is capitalism/neoliberalism, and unless you're attacking that directly and meaningfully, you cannot build lasting gains in its boughs.
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Sep 23, 2018 07:22
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:and maybe they can alleviate some of the more brutal evils of capitalism in the meantime with whatever power they can win. you idiot, this is exactly what the capitalists want. they WANT to have their power slightly lessened. the millions poured into lobbying and elections to oppose these things is just a clever ruse.
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Sep 23, 2018 07:22
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Slanderer posted:Late stage capitalism is a doomsday cult fixation for posters. the system will soon collapse, so instead of worrying about the physical world, we should concern ourselves with the spiritual world (forums) instead 
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Sep 23, 2018 07:23
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ShriekingMarxist posted:Here's the thing about the progressive resurgence; okay let's hold the Nordic model up as a place we want to go, all of those places are seeing their services and systems assailed by capitalist interests as global finance tailspins and keeps making GBS threads its pants by being overly greedy. They're not going to find another third world population to exploit, so everything is furniture re-arrangement and austerity until the revolts start. entropy dictates that lasting gains are impossible
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Sep 23, 2018 07:24
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PbdyJ_ybSI
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Sep 23, 2018 07:25
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:maybe im an idiot and im too easily swayed by seeing things being successful. this new dem soc left since trumps election is seemingly the first time the left has had any sort of growth or success in america since the New Left, and it just seems incredibly stupid and counterproductive to complain about its inadequacies while offering nothing different than a return to the left before its rise, which clearly did not work. You're preaching to the choir here. Being emboldened by a resurgent left should not mean, however, that we should draw the line at a welfare state. That's just not good enough, existentially. This feels like tone policing more than anything else, in the LF thread of all places. You're insulting peoples' intelligence by assuming they're too afraid to "get" Marxism or whatever, and that we should keep our opinions to ourselves just to see what happens. There certainly aren't people in the DSA who actually are revolutionary socialists who are keeping their opinions to themselves. This attitude of fear you're cultivating is non-dialectical. Slanderer posted:Late stage capitalism is a doomsday cult fixation for posters. the system will soon collapse, so instead of worrying about the physical world, we should concern ourselves with the spiritual world (forums) instead Late stage capitalism is when the rate of profitability declines to the point that capital turns inward to cannibalistically devour itself for those actors which still retain control of capital. What that means is maintaining profitability through wage and benefit suppression, at first through narrative manipulation and regulatory capture, and soon by brute force. The end of late stage capitalism isn't necessarily the ushering in of a new socialist world. It's the descent of society into barbarism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xyqDUl9jkA
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Sep 23, 2018 07:30
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good post
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Sep 23, 2018 07:32
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hey you guys should read The Transitional Program it's pretty good
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Sep 23, 2018 07:33
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You're preaching to the choir here. Being emboldened by a resurgent left should not mean, however, that we should draw the line at a welfare state. That's just not good enough, existentially. This feels like tone policing more than anything else, in the LF thread of all places. You're insulting peoples' intelligence by assuming they're too afraid to "get" Marxism or whatever, and that we should keep our opinions to ourselves just to see what happens. There certainly aren't people in the DSA who actually are revolutionary socialists who are keeping their opinions to themselves. This attitude of fear you're cultivating is non-dialectical. I mean I'm responding to someone who just said it's Matt's goal to thwart the People's Revolution lol
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Sep 23, 2018 08:05
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:I mean I'm responding to someone who just said it's Matt's goal to thwart the People's Revolution lol that's not the accusation levied by the use of the term opportunist but go off
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Sep 23, 2018 08:07
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ShriekingMarxist posted:Basically anything that seeks to thwart the creation of a people's revolution to destroy liberalism globally. Bruenig is pretty clearly a left opportunist and is a cul-de-sac of bourgeois "progressive values". His rhetoric serves capital in the end, because capital will adapt and contort to any demand that will keep its basic form and function in place, including poo poo like M4A and UBI. These are the "end goals" of a lot of the soft-left these days, with a complete blind spot for imperialism on a global scale, and people that reinforce those as places we can stop are doing active harm, imo anyway.
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Sep 23, 2018 08:10
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A revolution would be hard, and people would die and a lot of material comfort would be shaken up and lost, but if your actual goal is a better world for everyone and not an easier life to shitpost from inside a metropolitan American city, then it's necessary by pretty much all the math. If you just want M4A and UBI and a kinder gentler capitalism, then just stop stealing left energy and diverting it towards those goals and join the democratic party.
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Sep 23, 2018 08:19
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I don't see a non-revolutionary solution to the ecological crises of the current times, and in my eyes it's probably the biggest threat to human life and well-being capitalism has to bear at this time, outside of perhaps the possible escalation to nuclear war in some conflict of imperialism.
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Sep 23, 2018 08:22
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ShriekingMarxist posted:A revolution would be hard, and people would die and a lot of material comfort would be shaken up and lost, but if your actual goal is a better world for everyone and not an easier life to shitpost from inside a metropolitan American city, then it's necessary by pretty much all the math. If you just want M4A and UBI and a kinder gentler capitalism, then just stop stealing left energy and diverting it towards those goals and join the democratic party. but it's not one or the other like you're making it out to be, or that the people who just want M4A and UBI are useless/counterproductive. revolution is the only chance at total emancipation but you can't just will a revolution into being, you have to actively work to create the conditions for it. you and I both know that people's lives will still be full of exploitation, misery, poverty, pollution, death, and war even with M4A and UBI, but therein lies the tactic itself: revolutionary socialists need to work within the bourgeois system to push for more and more pro-worker reforms. and it will never be enough because capitalism sucks; even with M4A you're getting sick, hurt, and dying from pollution and work accidents, even with UBI you're spending the vast majority of it on basic necessities for life (eleectricity, rent, childcare, etc.) that ought to be free by right. The tactic is that we'll necessarily reach a point where capital can give no more without threatening it's very existence, people will see the limit of our current political and economic system and understand that we need to move beyond it. On this quest, people who "only" want M4A and UBI can serve a useful purpose. the wage earning toilers might think it's all they need but they'll realize it's not, and for people like Matty B that might only want M4A and UBI and worker co-ops for ideological reasons, well they can just be discarded when they're no longer useful. who cares? if the people realize what Matty B thinks is enough isn't enough, he becomes a reactionary and it won't matter what he thinks. so create united fronts with other left parties on anything you agree on that can benefit workers, push for it, and keep doing it, and eventually we'll get there. it'll take a while but no one said this was going to be easy.
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Sep 23, 2018 08:30
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Good post, and honestly I pretty much totally agree. I just try to agitate and stir people up and push them more left in whatever venue I'm hollering in, including this one. There are people reading this/posting here who don't see the necessity of revolution for liberation, maybe something will sink in. Plant seeds, do commie judo, turn more people into agitators.
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Sep 23, 2018 08:35
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it's anecdotal but something that proves the efficacy of it to me is that i've become acquainted with enough europeans in countries with far more humane systems than the US to know that having a better healthcare system doesn't make you hate your life any less when you work as a restaurant server or a gas station clerk for roughly minimum wage. no reform under a capitalist system is going to remove the sense of alienation (in the Marxian sense) in working a meaningless, tedious job or the sense of resentment and bitterness that comes with being relegated to an inferior class by circumstances of birth. scandinavia doesn't have socialists in it because they love circlejerking about what a perfect utopia they already live in, they exist because they think their capitalist system still blows.
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Sep 23, 2018 08:44
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Also I live in a deeply reactionary place (Missouri) so, I always feel under assault by pretty much every lovely aspect of the current political economy 
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Sep 23, 2018 08:47
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ShriekingMarxist posted:Also I live in a deeply reactionary place (Missouri) so, I always feel under assault by pretty much every lovely aspect of the current political economy i know all about it. I live in Arizona. the midterm campaign ads are basically the Senator McLaughlin campaign ads from Machete. the fashyness of this state isn't overstated.
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Sep 23, 2018 08:49
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https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1043769148688531456 might be cool to have a dedicated imperialism thread, unless I missed one that already exists
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Sep 23, 2018 08:58
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https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1043773459912974336
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Sep 23, 2018 09:16
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why is the President's addle-brained lawyer speaking at an UPRISING SUMMIT  how can this reality get any more loving bizarre?
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Sep 23, 2018 09:19
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this whole event seems like peak "not Tim & Eric." it's funny and creepy at the same time
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Sep 23, 2018 10:28
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ShriekingMarxist posted:Good post, and honestly I pretty much totally agree. I just try to agitate and stir people up and push them more left in whatever venue I'm hollering in, including this one. There are people reading this/posting here who don't see the necessity of revolution for liberation, maybe something will sink in. yeah this. we don't talk about how social democracy is insufficient because we want to show the world we're pure little radicals, we do it because it's true and it will be true for more people even after socdem reforms get passed. or if they don't, the fact the system won't allow for them to get passed can also serve as evidence.
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Sep 23, 2018 11:01
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Slanderer posted:Late stage capitalism is a doomsday cult fixation for posters. the system will soon collapse, so instead of worrying about the physical world, we should concern ourselves with the spiritual world (forums) instead when people say late stage capitalism they're referring to the overfinancialization of the worlds economy causing a catastrophic crash. although a lot of morons online don't know what it means, what we're referring to is the new great depression we're all screaming head first for. and probably a few nice wars to come out of it, too.
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Sep 23, 2018 11:09
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my feeling is that in the present period, socialists should be working to build their organizational capacity e.g. laying the groundwork for larger parties and formations down the road, while the presently existing socialist parties also should be trying to find common ground with one another with the goal of unification. I say this because we are not currently in a revolutionary period but increasingly are approaching what could be one. in that period, if the revolutionary party does not exist or does not have the capacity to absorb the newly radicalized layers of people that quickly develop in revolutionary crises, they will be absorbed by liberal or social democratic organizations. the political differences that exist between most US socialists are not so large imo as those that drove the split of the 2nd international. theres really no reason why many groups or parties shouldnt be working to fight and struggle under the same banner. im not talking about unprincipled "left unity" but a lot of the differences between various parties are tactical and not necessarily political, meaning they really should be working under the same formation. its not meant as a shot against DSA to say that the organization itself is social democratic, and that while there are marxists inside it, it remains a social democratic formation. in the event that a major crises occurred in the very near future, I think the most likely scenario would be the DSA growing even more and becoming closer to something like a syriza or podemos. both of which have completely failed to hold to their anti-capitalist rhetoric since gaining power. the thought leaders in the DSA seem to already view this as their goal given the amount of material jacobin has written about those parties and the various interviews theyve done with podemos, especially since the catalan independence movement sprung up. a few times theyve even outright said they want to create a US podemos. the only way to make sure we dont repeat the mistakes of spain and greece is to build a revolutionary party in the present period which can absorb newly radicalized people during the next crises of capitalism.
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Sep 23, 2018 12:40
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look i just want to be like my hero, maria spirdanova. let me know when the government's destabilized enough for that
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Sep 23, 2018 13:11
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to be fair tho, conflicting interests of contituent party units and the personal interest of their leadership caused by geopolitical power politics of that one war drove the split of the 2nd internationational. if you build an international organization composed of national subunits you're going to get an organization that works only as long as the interests of all those national parties align in the short term. so it's not really a big surprise we haven't been able to build stable transnational organizations when we got nothing to unite us besides national identity
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Sep 23, 2018 14:56
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Kurnugia posted:to be fair tho, conflicting interests of contituent party units and the personal interest of their leadership caused by geopolitical power politics of that one war drove the split of the 2nd internationational. if you build an international organization composed of national subunits you're going to get an organization that works only as long as the interests of all those national parties align in the short term. so it's not really a big surprise we haven't been able to build stable transnational organizations when we got nothing to unite us besides national identity honestly this is a big reason why I joined the CWI, because of the internationalism and the priority placed on it. like our section in tunisia is the largest one in the middle east/north africa and most of their work lately has been building up trade unions and organization in Yemen, or the support the irish section and paul murphy specifically have given to the catalan/spanish state sections over the past 2 years.
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Sep 23, 2018 16:20
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/should-apple-buy-greece-10244988.html Should Apple buy Greece? Apple has too much cash; Greece’s piggybank is empty, so… quote:It started as a joke at an Apple investor conference a few years ago. An audience member piped up that Apple should use its mass of cash – which now amounts to $194 billion – to buy Greece. I'd bold something for emphasis but the entire article is just 
Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Sep 23, 2018 |
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Sep 23, 2018 18:02
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The only thing that could possibly be worse than an IMF loan is a private corporate one lmfao.
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Sep 24, 2018 00:04
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