|
Farecoal posted:I've heard Frostpunk is excellent but that it also turns into more of a survival/puzzle game than a city builder Frostpunk is absolutely stellar, but is also definitely not a city builder in the old vein. You're definitely building a city, but the time constraints on top of the material ones make it into much more of a puzzler.
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 08:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 18:47 |
|
|
Man, now I want to play a good city builder even more. But they are all terrible, early access or I've played them way too much already.  Fintilgin posted:I have issues with CotN because the fog is so close and I can't get pretty views of my city. NoNotTheMindProbe posted:It looks like someone is doing a remake:
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2018 14:28
|
|
|
NoNotTheMindProbe posted:It looks like someone is doing a remake: .... okaaaaaayy? Hard.... ancient.... life? That's certainly... a name for a city building game. Jazerus posted:all of the recent ones like skylines are basically lego games - you build a pretty city, and the game kinda goes with what you want to do and doesn't put up a whole lot of resistance. you're not really building a city as a living organism, but as an art project. contrast this to simcity 1/2000/3000/4, where it was often a constant struggle to even stay solvent, and you had to make compromises like building nasty industrial zones because, well, how are you gonna pay off that loan, build out your services, etc. without revenue? that's what a city builder really needs to be, while i think the recent ones are oriented toward the simcity players who cheated themselves a million dollars and went nuts with the aesthetic design of the city instead of biting into the mechanics and letting the city's development flow naturally from those mechanics Yup. Skylines was pretty and kinda fun, but I feel like I'd seen all it had to offer after ~25 hours or so. No regrets, but haven't booted it since 2015.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 01:28
|
|
|
Fintilgin posted:.... okaaaaaayy? USE THE WEALTH OF THE LAND REASONABLY
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 01:30
|
|
|
Btw, this is exactly what I'm talking about with these Impressions games. I got warehouses full of meat and millet, ready for the merchants to feed the town.  And here's the food shop, saying they have insufficient food, even though there's a giant pile of meat and millet just down the street. And now all my houses have turned into straw because the people don't have high enough quality food. This is the tutorial. Every couple of months I think I'll give it another try and start over again. I usually get a few missions in but I always get a point where the walkers simply refuse to deliver goods, the houses degrade into huts, and everyone leaves the city. I have no idea what the game wants from me, it feels like herding cats. Anyways, sorry for the digression. Is there a better thread for this?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 03:59
|
|
|
Your granary is too far from your market so the houses start degrading before the market can send out a delivery which is probably locking you into a labor shortage loop. e: nope it's because you need to set the minimum food quality to Bland
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 04:04
|
|
|
Yeah build your granary closer to your housing black and use walls to keep the city rating up and to keep out people who don't need to be walking into the market? Did you play the xia tutorial? It's actually pretty good at explaining these things. There's also a YouTube channel called gamerzakh that goes mission to mission and also does city building doctors that serve as wonderful supplementary info for the game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 04:08
|
|
|
Yes, you're right, the Mill needed to be closer. Actually, maybe this is my problem with all my previous attempts at this game? Usually I get to a point where X good doesn't go to Y profession (jade to jade cutters, clay to kilns, whatever), so I guess you really need to keep storage close.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 04:29
|
|
|
NoNotTheMindProbe posted:Your granary is too far from your market so the houses start degrading before the market can send out a delivery which is probably locking you into a labor shortage loop. Meat and Millet can be combined to make Plain food, that shouldn't be an issue. There's two problems in that shot though. One, the mill is way too far away; it can easily be placed to the right of the river and the town surrounded by a wall to block the NIMBYness. Two, you need to limit the amount of meat that can be stored in it to a max of 16 and the millet set to fill the other half. Otherwise it will fill with one type and block the other. You shouldn't be storing food in a warehouse unless you plan on trading it away (which you can't do in this mission). edit: further clarification, a food stall will only pick up food from one mill at a time and the quality they can make will be determined by what is stored in it. As more types of food become available you will need to cap their storage off accordingly so you can fit at least 4 of each. Goods are always stored in multiples of 4, any less than 4 and you are wasting a tile since it won't be filled by anything else so long as there is at least 1 of something else occupying it. Psychotic Weasel fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Sep 20, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 04:32
|
|
|
I can't remember the exact number but walker will only walk...twenty I think space before they turn around to walk home. You generally want every thing as compact as possible without affecting city quality for maximum efficiency. It seems complicated but once you understand the basics you can really break free from basic sqaure housing blocks and still be successful with more aesthetic city designs.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 04:33
|
|
|
You don't get walls on that mission. Anyways I realized that I forgot the difference between Warehouse and Mills. Like I said, every couple of months I attempt to learn this game again so I've done the tutorial before and I skipped the text.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 04:34
|
|
|
Oh yeah, I see they aren't unlocked yet. Either way, the parks should be enough for now. By the time you need to get the housing above the second tier they should be available.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 04:36
|
|
|
Ancient Cities looks amazing and i hope it becomes everything it is trying to be.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 05:31
|
|
|
Mantis42 posted:Btw, this is exactly what I'm talking about with these Impressions games.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 07:23
|
|
|
Mantis42 posted:Btw, this is exactly what I'm talking about with these Impressions games. This right here is why I don't like city simulators, too frustrating for me. Children of the Nile back in the day was alright.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 09:14
|
|
|
In case sectors were the deal breaker about Stellaris for anyone: next patch they're a static part of the map like de jure duchies in CK2, their internal economies are gone, you always have direct control over everything, and letting sector governors build to reduce planet micro is completely optional.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 16:22
|
|
|
That leaves us with one of the oldest problems of 4X games, though. If you make managing a single part of your empire complex and interesting, managing an entire empire will be a chore. If you make managing your entire empire simple enough not to be a chore, managing the single part you start with will be shallow and simplistic. Sectors weren't a great solution to the problem, but they were at least attempting to solve the problem - I worry that late game Stellaris will become cumbersome to play as a result of their removal. I already only play it on the smaller galaxy sizes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 17:40
|
|
|
Gort posted:That leaves us with one of the oldest problems of 4X games, though. If you make managing a single part of your empire complex and interesting, managing an entire empire will be a chore. If you make managing your entire empire simple enough not to be a chore, managing the single part you start with will be shallow and simplistic. the solution to this is to have toggle-able, player-voluntary AI governors who perform at reasonable efficiency. ideally for many game systems, so players can say poo poo like "manage these cities for me" or "move my armies from the east border to the west one" or "just handle the loving trade routes". this would of course require investing even a little time, money and design attention into your game's AI, so it will never happen.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 18:00
|
|
|
Planetary management is going to be easier with the new system they are designing. This has a huge knock-on effect of making it easier for AI to manage, thus making it more appealing to players to have the AI manage it. Additionally, if they are easier to manage a play can set up a planet how he likes it and eventually push it into a sector once it is going in a direction he likes and the now suddenly more competent AI will help keep things going along smoothly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 18:06
|
|
|
Prav posted:the solution to this is to have toggle-able, player-voluntary AI governors who perform at reasonable efficiency. ideally for many game systems, so players can say poo poo like "manage these cities for me" or "move my armies from the east border to the west one" or "just handle the loving trade routes". Pretty much every 4X game tries this and I never feel like it's an option worth using for the reasons you state here - the AI never does it as well as I like it to, so I play on small maps where the burden of management doesn't get too big, or I just stop playing the game after a while.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 18:49
|
|
|
i don't think it's some kind of unobtainable goal, i think 4x producers just prioritize poorly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 18:59
|
|
|
But it says right there in the post that automation is still available, just optional?
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 19:17
|
|
|
Noir89 posted:But it says right there in the post that automation is still available, just optional? It's an option that's always bad in the games that implement it, yeah...
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 19:31
|
|
|
Gort posted:Pretty much every 4X game tries this and I never feel like it's an option worth using for the reasons you state here - the AI never does it as well as I like it to, so I play on small maps where the burden of management doesn't get too big, or I just stop playing the game after a while. I think part of why this kind of thing works in CK2 when it doesn’t in other games is that in CK2 delegation is mandatory. The idea of passing off some level of control to stupid assholes who will probably try to usurp you is built in to the fabric of the game, rather than being a half-measure to try to reduce micromanagement. If you give people the option of doing it themselves, they will want to do that even if the option for automation exists. If you force them to automate things, then there’s no feeling of “I’d be doing better if I was less lazy”
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 19:53
|
|
|
The Cheshire Cat posted:I think part of why this kind of thing works in CK2 when it doesn’t in other games is that in CK2 delegation is mandatory. The idea of passing off some level of control to stupid assholes who will probably try to usurp you is built in to the fabric of the game, rather than being a half-measure to try to reduce micromanagement. If you give people the option of doing it themselves, they will want to do that even if the option for automation exists. If you force them to automate things, then there’s no feeling of “I’d be doing better if I was less lazy”
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 20:18
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:However, Stellaris is in a genre where the defining game of the genre, Master of Orion 1/2, the player has full direct control of everything the whole time, CK2 doesnt really have an example of that. That makes it for CKII it is just how it is. If you do that in Stellaris now, where there has been a flexible Core Worlds cap that can also be modded, you would be removing people's ability to feel human. Well, synthetic is the best ascension path, so you're doing them a favor, really.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 20:23
|
|
|
Optional AI automation is never worth it. The only way you will ever get me to use it is if the AI will actually do as well as or better than I will, which is not a realistic expectation. Otherwise, even if I really want a system to be automate, I will never do so if it's optional. I will suffer horribly if it means being just fractionally more efficient. I get the feeling that most players are this way as well. It's human nature. That's why as a game designer, you either build it into the game itself (HoI4, for example), or you probably shouldn't even bother. I know that not everyone is like me, but really most players will abuse themselves and willfully have less fun if it means getting bigger numbers. We're idiots. Paradox has played with optional automation before (HoI2) as have many other companies, and at the end of the day, it never seems worth the investment because we're all just too goddamn dumb. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Sep 20, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 20:31
|
|
|
On the other hand, MoO 1 has systems eimple enough that it could be easily automated. Toss simple goals at an AI that tell it to optimize production growth, get X level of defenses, and then research/build ships/stockpile/whatever. In the end you'd end up with similar output from a player and an AI due to the lack of complexity.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 20:45
|
|
|
Prav posted:the solution to this is to have toggle-able, player-voluntary AI governors who perform at reasonable efficiency. ideally for many game systems, so players can say poo poo like "manage these cities for me" or "move my armies from the east border to the west one" or "just handle the loving trade routes". wiz's main hands-on coding role is AI improvement dude
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 20:55
|
|
|
I think the difference now is planets are mostly do-once than let do what they do. You're not manually upgrading every mine, your mining districts remain mining districts.
|
|
#
?
Sep 20, 2018 22:00
|
|
|
New Imperator dev diary on Italic military traditions. Starting tradition: Walled Cities: +25% defensiveness Tribal Path posted:Artisanal Bronzework: +15% Light Infantry Defence Support Path posted:State Navy: +15% Trireme Morale Roman Path posted:Principes: +15% Heavy Infantry Discipline Also some clarifications: - You can Raid Cities when you have taken control of a hostile territory giving you money and manpower in exchange for hurting the growth, output, and commerce of the territory - Building Border Forts creates a colony in an unowned ‘city’ that is adjacent to one of your own cities, adding 1 freeman pop of your culture and a fort for military power. - Military Roadbuilding is the cheapest and fastest way to build roads in the game. Technowolf fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Sep 25, 2018 |
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2018 16:47
|
|
|
None of these numbers still mean anything. I'd like some actual dev diary-esque stuff about making the game, intent behind design decisions, etc. I don't know how a list of bonuses in a game I haven't played and can't know how the bonuses work is supposed to grab my interest.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2018 17:09
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:None of these numbers still mean anything. They're not bad but I see your point, seems like they're pacing themselves since there are plenty of weeks to go until release. Hopefully we can get some from other members of the team as well, what is that magnificent bastard Bjorn up to?
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2018 17:21
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:None of these numbers still mean anything. Yeah these dev diaries have been pretty bad. I want to know how the game will play, I don’t care what happens when some guys are defending in hilly terrain. The lack of interesting info in the dev diaries makes me suspect the game will be pretty dry (I guess the alternative is that they are really hiding the ball for some reason) and as a result my hype level for this game is very low.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2018 17:22
|
|
|
Design decisions? It's EU but with an uglier UI and more unit types, what more do you want to know?
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2018 17:24
|
|
|
Good to have Roman roadbuilding confirmed as the best but not the only roadbuilding in the game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2018 18:46
|
|
|
Magissima posted:Design decisions? It's EU but with an uglier UI and more unit types, what more do you want to know? If you told me that Paradox were making a new grand strategy franchise and Johan was heading the design team, "EU4 with more provinces and some random additional complexity" is almost exactly what I would have guessed so it's hardly surprising.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2018 18:56
|
|
|
Bold Robot posted:Yeah these dev diaries have been pretty bad.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2018 19:06
|
|
|
I feel obligated to get it, but yeah, I rather wish they didn't design it so much as a EU-variant. (And yes, I know Rome 1 was so completely an eu-variant that it was actually part of the name. Still.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2018 19:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 18:47 |
|
|
Strudel Man posted:I feel obligated to get it, but yeah, I rather wish they didn't design it so much as a EU-variant. (And yes, I know Rome 1 was so completely an eu-variant that it was actually part of the name. Still.) That did hold Rome 1 back a lot so you would at least think they would learn their lesson.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2018 20:22
|
|
