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Paramemetic posted:I wonder how many US Grand Lodges are about to make themselves clandestine by derecognition of UGLE. A Mason I know immediately tagged the GM and said it was time to derecognize when I shared it on FB.
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Aug 1, 2018 16:51
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I say good riddance to the brethren who view this in such a light.
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Aug 1, 2018 17:12
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I agree. If my GL were to derecognize over this, I’d pretty much lose all interest in the fraternity.
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Aug 1, 2018 17:13
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Yeah, this has been in the works for a while. We're unsure if it's a general "acceptance" or more of a "it's the law, we have to" but either way, it's the best way of looking at it I think.
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Aug 1, 2018 17:54
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Progress? Oh my! You left out the bit where they mention that any person who is classified by the law as a woman, cannot join the male Freemasonry. But still, this should silence a bunch of discussions about gender so we can talk about dinner and traffic again. Or about how the lodge building is in dire need of repairs and why not everyone is paying for their drinks!
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Aug 1, 2018 17:57
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Keetron posted:Progress? Oh my! Maintaining a gender-based membership criteria is the whole reason they had to rule on it. Otherwise, gender transitions would have no bearing on membership. So that bit is already kind of implied.
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Aug 1, 2018 18:02
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Keetron posted:Progress? Oh my! I'm fine with that, myself. I don't favour co-masonry (glad it exists, mind you, and I'd prefer it if grand lodges would set up reciprocal recognition with co-masonic orders and female masonic orders so that we could interact, but I think there's value in male-exclusive and female-exclusive initatory spaces and traditions) so I'm perfectly happy to keep the Lodge to men and just bring the definition of man into the 21st century.
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Aug 2, 2018 03:25
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Keetron posted:Progress? Oh my! Cannot join, but also "A Freemason who becomes a woman is not required to resign from the Craft." I'm absolutely over the moon. As I'd always said, can't make a woman a Mason, but nothing stopping us from making a Mason a woman.
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Aug 2, 2018 07:23
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Sub Rosa posted:Cannot join, but also "A Freemason who becomes a woman is not required to resign from the Craft." My point is that a man who was born a woman but lives in a place where the law does not allow for gender reassignment, cannot join. But I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere and this is way further than expected. Edit: it also cuts the definition short to: "What is in his passport?"
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Aug 2, 2018 15:51
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The actual policy states:quote:A candidate for admission to Freemasonry under the jurisdiction of UGLE must be a man. Should a person who has undergone gender reassignment and has become a man apply to become a Freemason then his application must be processed in the same way as for any other male candidate. Any qualified candidate for admission may be proposed for membership of a private lodge in accordance with the provisions in the Rules contained in the Book of Constitutions. No candidate should be subjected to questions about their gender which could make them feel uncomfortable. You are defining "gender reassignment" as having legal documents changed, but this isn't the only way that "a person who has undergone gender reassignment and has become a man" could be interpreted. While I think it is an acceptable minimum in countries where changing legal markers is allowed, I would think that many trans men who live in places where the law doesn't allow having legal documents altered could easily be considered to have "undergone gender reassignment" and have became men. At least unless I did miss something, anyway, I don't think it is or could only be interpreted as legal document marker.
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Aug 2, 2018 21:27
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Unfortunately going to be a lot of black cubes 
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Aug 2, 2018 23:12
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Not a mason but thinking about an interview I heard with the GWM of North Carolina on the radio a few years ago, did I understand correctly that there's a multi-year lag between grand lodge elections and those individuals taking office because if so that is genius and I wish it applied to politics IRL. I cannot concieve of a better incentive to vote for the man and not the issue.
shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Aug 3, 2018 |
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Aug 3, 2018 04:30
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There are several officer positions and they basically flow from one to the next. This applies both in a local lodge and the Grand Lodge. For the most part, you start in one position and each year you get bumped to the next. I believe you still have to get voted in to each position, but the general understanding is that you advance each year.
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Aug 3, 2018 12:50
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Keetron posted:My point is that a man who was born a woman but lives in a place where the law does not allow for gender reassignment, cannot join. But I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere and this is way further than expected. I don't think that's an issue in the UGLE's jurisdiction, which is largely, you know, England and the rest of the UK.
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Aug 3, 2018 13:31
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shame on an IGA posted:Not a mason but thinking about an interview I heard with the GWM of North Carolina on the radio a few years ago, did I understand correctly that there's a multi-year lag between grand lodge elections and those individuals taking office because if so that is genius and I wish it applied to politics IRL. I cannot concieve of a better incentive to vote for the man and not the issue. In North Carolina, and I'm sure many other jurisdictions, the incoming Grand Master appoints a Grand Junior Steward, who then advances through the officers line, at one chair per year. It takes eight years to move up to Grand Master. (Barring complications.)
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Aug 5, 2018 13:47
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Colonial Air Force posted:Unfortunately going to be a lot of black cubes Yeah, the vast majority of Masons I know (present company excepted, y'all seem cool) wouldn't vote in a trans guy. But things do eventually change -- Prince Hall went off and started his own branch of Masonry*, and now they're accepted as regular by most all Masons whose leadership aren't jerks (i.e., everybody but the US states that were briefly their own country*), so it's only a matter of time, hopefully. *I will refrain from making the obvious Futurama joke when talking about such serious topics. But c'mon, you thought it too.
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Aug 6, 2018 08:33
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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I had something made.
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Aug 6, 2018 09:24
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Chillbro Baggins posted:Yeah, the vast majority of Masons I know (present company excepted, y'all seem cool) wouldn't vote in a trans guy. But things do eventually change -- Prince Hall went off and started his own branch of Masonry*, and now they're accepted as regular by most all Masons whose leadership aren't jerks (i.e., everybody but the US states that were briefly their own country*), so it's only a matter of time, hopefully. Hey, c’mon. That’s not fair. West Virginia doesn’t recognize Prince Hall but fought for the Union. Let’s not forget them.
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Aug 6, 2018 14:50
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Hi All, I am going to petition one of my local Lodges for membership when I return from vacation two weeks hence. Please send good vibes and prayers that I may be found humble, worthy, and right for acceptance of my petition. I look forward to joining the brotherhood with all of you fellows, and will report back with updates on my journey through the three degrees.
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Sep 8, 2018 15:01
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I'm watching Inside the Freemasons on netflix. What do you Masons think of a show like this? It shows some previously secret parts of rituals etc.
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Sep 19, 2018 01:52
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Depends, how much time has been spent talking about Propaganda Due and like all this weird fringe poo poo? I usually get off on the conspiracy theory stuff, personally, and how often P2 is brought up is a great pulse check for the real good  
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Sep 19, 2018 02:39
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It's not conspiracy poo poo - I drink that up and enjoy it - and it shows more than I'd like from what I've seen so far. The frank discussion of the MoP is too far for my taste, and I suspect I'll find more along that line as I watch. It does remind me, however, of just how much I have come to despise the sight of grand lodge regalia. No brother should be adorned in greater finery than that which is the D:.M:. bestowed in the S:.D:. of a M:.M:. in a regular M:.M:. lodge, whether the GM or the JD as far as I'm concerned.
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Sep 19, 2018 14:10
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Paramemetic posted:Depends, how much time has been spent talking about Propaganda Due and like all this weird fringe poo poo? I usually get off on the conspiracy theory stuff, personally, and how often P2 is brought up is a great pulse check for the real good It’s quite the opposite from youtube videos. Very documentary. Watch it if you’re interested.
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Sep 20, 2018 01:30
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Loomer posted:It's not conspiracy poo poo - I drink that up and enjoy it - and it shows more than I'd like from what I've seen so far. The frank discussion of the MoP is too far for my taste, and I suspect I'll find more along that line as I watch. I'm a Mason and I only understood like half of those acronyms. But yeah, I watched the first episode, and eh... I was bored with it, but it's nothing new or intriguing to me because I've been a part of it already. Which might be the best way to present it. edit-- it is annoying though, the sensational way they refer to certain titles as the rulers of Freemasonry - namely the Deputy Grand Master. Count Thrashula fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Sep 20, 2018 |
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Sep 20, 2018 01:52
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I checked with Paramemetic first and they said this was okay to ask, so; Not to be offensive, but how often do these various lodges become embroiled with criminal enterprises or scandals like drugs or child abuse? The Catholic Church is rocked again and again continuously by their priests inability to not abuse children and they're not even really that secretive compared to Free Masons.
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Sep 25, 2018 20:01
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Quick, nobody mention the jesters!
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Sep 25, 2018 20:08
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OscarDiggs posted:I checked with Paramemetic first and they said this was okay to ask, so; Someone accidentally shot a gun in a lodge and killed someone like 14 years ago Other than that I'm drawing a blank. Our fraternity tends to actually live by the moral principles we teach.
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Sep 25, 2018 20:11
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There's occasional racist scandals in the US, but nothing illegal.
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Sep 25, 2018 22:49
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OscarDiggs posted:I checked with Paramemetic first and they said this was okay to ask, so; No offense taken. I think at first look you need to realize the largest difference between large organizations i.e. the catholic church and Free Masons is that we are not centrally controlled. There is no grand leader. Each jurisdiction is unto itself. Individual Lodges don't answer to any other lodge but their Grand Lodge, and these are wholly sovereign entities. They don't answer to other GL's. With that said there are certainly criminal Free Masons. It happens in any group, there are bound to be bad apples. My GL has expelled a number of brothers lately on a wide swathe of charges ranging from embezzlement to child molestation. I think the difference for us is there is no incentive to protect wrong doers. The most common victim in a Masonic trial is the Lodge that brother belonged to.
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Sep 25, 2018 23:42
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There was a lodge in my area that had their charter pulled a few years back because the WM, JW, SW and a few others were all involved in embezzling money from the lodge.
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Sep 26, 2018 02:53
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OscarDiggs posted:I checked with Paramemetic first and they said this was okay to ask, so; Quite rarely. One thing I take pride in is that as a group of organizations, we also seem a little more on top of kicking people the gently caress out if we find out they do things like fiddle with kids. Now, that isn't to say that individual brethren don't do shady poo poo or even some lodges, but usually said shady things are more along the lines of fraudulent quotes for repair work to get more money out of grand lodge than they are secret conspiracies to sell drugs, or on the individual level, the odd bust for drug dealing/insurance fraud/child pornography/drunk driving on levels similar to the rest of society, or a little lower.
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Sep 26, 2018 05:33
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Much higher incident of goat-related crimes though, you have to admit.
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Sep 26, 2018 06:06
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OscarDiggs posted:I checked with Paramemetic first and they said this was okay to ask, so; The freemasons situation in France is hosed up, the have been numerous schizma's over higher ups in the FM organisations snuggling it with politicians. Same in Belgium, to the point where the Dutch GL had to revoke recognition for a while. I did some quick googling and this was in 2012 for the France thing and 2016 in Belgium. A fine example of an individual mason who went wrong is of course Anders Breivik who was kicked out immediately after poo poo went down.
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Sep 26, 2018 06:09
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Nessus posted:Much higher incident of goat-related crimes though, you have to admit. Never admit. Remember your oath!!
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Sep 26, 2018 06:32
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_Due The classic example of a criminal lodge is, of course, the Italian P2 lodge, but that was a clandestinely lodge not recognized by anyone. I am not aware of any organized criminal activity in regular lodges.
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Sep 26, 2018 07:48
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Okay, pretty interesting. Thank you all.
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Sep 26, 2018 10:03
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http://www.msana.com/msastats.asp The new membership stats from the Masonic Service Association of North America are out, so I couldn't resist the temptation to make a graph:  Masonic membership in North America has declined 46.8% over the last 20 years, from 2,021,909 in 1997 to 1,076,626 in 2017. The rate of decline seemed to be slowly levelling off during most of the 2000's, but around 2012 it settles into a linear trend.  If the current trend continues, North American freemasonry will cease to exist in 2040. Sorry not to have better news. I was planning to fit the points to a curve, and predict when freemasonry would start growing again, but the data doesn't really support it. SimonChris fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Sep 27, 2018 |
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Sep 27, 2018 17:51
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It's a common discussion yeah. I wonder if, for example, Oddfellows, Elks, etc. see similar declines? I'm not inclined to consider Elks or Moose or so on as the same thing, either. Oddfellows is very much similar. I suspect Masonry would contract to a situation like we see in some occult organizations, OTO, etc. which are small but very real. But of course very large grand lodges with a lot of funding and power aren't content to shrink. I'm happy for Masonry to shrink, I find the recent advertising approach and the semi-active recruiting thing a bit distasteful. The focus should be on Masons and taking care of our own, and if we slowly are dying off and shrinking and so on, that's what that is. I don't think we ever needed to be millions in number.
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Sep 27, 2018 22:35
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Nessus posted:Much higher incident of goat-related crimes though, you have to admit. Paramemetic posted:Never admit. Remember your oath!!
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Sep 28, 2018 03:48
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Paramemetic posted:I wonder if, for example, Oddfellows, Elks, etc. see similar declines? I'm not inclined to consider Elks or Moose or so on as the same thing, either. Oddfellows is very much similar.
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Sep 28, 2018 03:54
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