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Mai Tais are pretty good, to be fair
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Sep 25, 2018 05:50
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How did I miss that multiple times I guess I'm taking very Thai, now.
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Sep 25, 2018 08:51
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It's มวยไทย you romanizing pedants
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Sep 25, 2018 11:31
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Finally got round to going to the gym I have been banging on about, its gorgeous inside, lovely weights set up and a massive american style sized space for BJJ and a few boxing rings, cages etc etc. Owner was showing me round and some dude comes up to me excitedly saying "are you the guy that winds XYZ up on facebook all the time, you're hilarious dude fair play even showing up here!"..... and yea, that is me. I am going to get the gently caress beaten out of me. Well you either win or you learn right guys! willie_dee fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Sep 25, 2018 |
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Sep 25, 2018 17:46
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Has anyone else ever had the experience of having a guest instructor from another school teach a seminar and despite them being very good at the art, the seminar goes against everything you’ve learned? And I don’t mean in a “oh wow this makes so much sense” kind of way, but more in a “he’s saying these fundamentals that are necessary and good and practiced by far better fighters are actually bad” kind of way. Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Sep 26, 2018 |
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Sep 26, 2018 12:14
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Any concrete examples? I haven't had that happen but I have had instructors explain that some fundamental details are a bit different at advanced levels when you really understand them because they are simplified for beginners.
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Sep 26, 2018 15:38
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Yuns posted:Any concrete examples? I haven't had that happen but I have had instructors explain that some fundamental details are a bit different at advanced levels when you really understand them because they are simplified for beginners. It's a lot of fencing stuff, but for example he cuts with his hands forward rather than his sword tip forward, which presents his hands as a target in the motion of the cut. It also causes issues with the cut itself by making it shorter and less effective at cutting overall. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying to myself he was speaking strictly about the context of that particular drill, ie cutting short is the "point" of the exercise in order to emphasize something else, but then there were other (difficult to explain) examples where he seemed to indicate this is the way you're supposed to cut always. Which I think might be a case of "it works for me, therefore it works for everyone", but we're not all 6 foot+, long-limbed Norwegian dudes. Overall I liked some of what he taught and disliked most of it, but it did help me pinpoint certain deficiencies my own fencing is suffering from that can be hopefully ironed out with some of the drills he prescribes. I just find this situation very fascinating, and was wondering if other people experienced something similar. Verisimilidude fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Sep 26, 2018 |
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Sep 26, 2018 15:57
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Verisimilidude posted:Has anyone else ever had the experience of having a guest instructor from another school teach a seminar and despite them being very good at the art, the seminar goes against everything you’ve learned? Every gym has a particular style so I have had the experience "oh we don't do things like that here". Your three choices when you encounter this are: "This new technique is garbage, I'm going to ignore it" "There's some validity to this new technique, I'll try to integrate it with my existing style" "Everything I've learned before this is a lie"
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Sep 26, 2018 16:15
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HEMA will be especially prone to it, as people are mostly figuring stuff out as they go along. Give it a generation or 4 and it should sort it self out 
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Sep 27, 2018 03:45
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HEMA also has the Historical part. Some people will do things a certain way because that's how a 14th century Italian manuscript depicted it while someone else will do it a different way because that's how a 10th century German woodcarving depicted it.
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Sep 27, 2018 07:14
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General Emergency posted:HEMA also has the Historical part. Some people will do things a certain way because that's how a 14th century Italian manuscript depicted it while someone else will do it a different way because that's how a 10th century German woodcarving depicted it. I never understood the HEMA acronym, since you'd think Nerd-rear end Dorks w/ Swords would be abbreviated as NADS
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Sep 27, 2018 07:20
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General Emergency posted:HEMA also has the Historical part. Some people will do things a certain way because that's how a 14th century Italian manuscript depicted it while someone else will do it a different way because that's how a 10th century German woodcarving depicted it.
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Sep 27, 2018 11:28
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Yuns posted:When HEMA guys are researching early sources, how do they determine whether something is the medieval equivalent of an army field manual or a medieval version of black belt magazine. How do you winnow out the 14th century Ashida Kims. References to the authors and manuscripts in other historical sources mostly. I haven't done HEMA in a while but that was a pretty common discussion topic. "Does this Fiore dei Liberi guy actually know his poo poo or is he full of it?" It's an open question but in the end it's just learning the techniques as described and pressure testing them through sparring or competition.
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Sep 27, 2018 12:05
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Yuns posted:When HEMA guys are researching early sources, how do they determine whether something is the medieval equivalent of an army field manual or a medieval version of black belt magazine. How do you winnow out the 14th century Ashida Kims. It's really the problem with any historiography - you just need to use solid historical methods and compare to other sources to figure out what a text would have been in context. HEMA actually has an advantage over normal historical sub-fields in that it's actually kinda testable in a way that "Did religious tract A influence political event B" or "What led to figure C making decision D" questions aren't.
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Sep 27, 2018 16:59
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So thanks to reading through this thread, I've started up at my local Muay Thai gym in the Seattle area. 5 classes in now and absolutely love it - it feels great landing solid punches and kicks, and the workout is about 100x more fun than running. Question about hand wraps - nobody in this gym seems to use them even for sparring, but I'm getting some pain during strikes, especially hooks. Part of it I'm sure is due to bad form, but I'd like to keep my hands healthy. Am I being a baby man and should just toughen up? Thanks thread. P.S. I thought wearing a cup would be uncomfortable but I surprisingly like it - like a cozy little snail shell.
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Sep 27, 2018 23:22
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Scruff_McGee posted:So thanks to reading through this thread, I've started up at my local Muay Thai gym in the Seattle area. 5 classes in now and absolutely love it - it feels great landing solid punches and kicks, and the workout is about 100x more fun than running. Question about hand wraps - nobody in this gym seems to use them even for sparring, but I'm getting some pain during strikes, especially hooks. Part of it I'm sure is due to bad form, but I'd like to keep my hands healthy. Am I being a baby man and should just toughen up? Thanks thread. Wraps are 100% indispensable for heavy bag work and pretty darn good for everything else. I say wear wraps.
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Sep 28, 2018 02:42
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Wear wraps. You get the added benefit of feeling cool as you put them on.
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Sep 28, 2018 03:19
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Scruff_McGee posted:Question about hand wraps - nobody in this gym seems to use them even for sparring That's pretty weird. Early on, when you don't have good timing on when to tense your wrist, it's easy to roll them. The wraps help a lot. They also help protect your knuckles when you connect with bone.
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Sep 28, 2018 03:43
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CommonShore posted:It's really the problem with any historiography - you just need to use solid historical methods and compare to other sources to figure out what a text would have been in context. There's a bit of a divide now between people who are trying to determine what's effective and viable through pressure testing and cross-referencing with living swordsmanship traditions, and people who strictly adhere to the historical documents. I prefer the former since I come from a school with mixed heritage, and I train JSA as well.
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Sep 28, 2018 14:35
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Verisimilidude posted:There's a bit of a divide now between people who are trying to determine what's effective and viable through pressure testing and cross-referencing with living swordsmanship traditions, and people who strictly adhere to the historical documents. I prefer the former since I come from a school with mixed heritage, and I train JSA as well. Which is a good call. As someone who has a few high-level credentials in a historical discipline, and as someone who also has quantifiable credentials in fighting and teaching people how to fight, I say that the latter are no different from biblical literalists and cargo cultists. For something to be historical it needs interpretation, and for something to be good fighting, it needs to be tested against skilled, resisting opponents.
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Sep 28, 2018 14:50
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CommonShore posted:Which is a good call. As someone who has a few high-level credentials in a historical discipline, and as someone who also has quantifiable credentials in fighting and teaching people how to fight, I say that the latter are no different from biblical literalists and cargo cultists. For something to be historical it needs interpretation, and for something to be good fighting, it needs to be tested against skilled, resisting opponents (preferably not in a tournament or rules based setting). FTFY
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Sep 28, 2018 16:20
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DandyLion posted:FTFY Where can you test fighting regularly in an environment that isn't rules based lol
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Sep 28, 2018 16:40
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Cyber Dog posted:Where can you test fighting regularly in an environment that isn't rules based lol *watches K1 tournament* drat...there's no way to tell if this is good for fighting or not
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Sep 28, 2018 16:40
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Cyber Dog posted:Where can you test fighting regularly in an environment that isn't rules based lol with weapons, no less.
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Sep 28, 2018 17:49
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The problem with sword arts, is that it will still remain wide open to interpretation, simply because we aren't actually cutting each other into pieces. There is no consequence of getting hit, so unlike boxing and MMA, we aren't putting anything other than our egos on the line.
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Sep 28, 2018 21:05
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Cyber Dog posted:Where can you test fighting regularly in an environment that isn't rules based lol Simple. Freeplay where there's no score and no 'winning'. Just honest assessments of people doing as close to 100% as they can and still retain some modicum of control for safety's sake. Any time there's a tangible reason for one to lie about a hit so they can win, you're not getting a representative comparison with real fighting.
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Sep 28, 2018 21:05
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DandyLion posted:Simple. Freeplay where there's no score and no 'winning'. Just honest assessments of people doing as close to 100% as they can and still retain some modicum of control for safety's sake. Any time there's a tangible reason for one to lie about a hit so they can win, you're not getting a representative comparison with real fighting. As ImplicitAssembler said above, if you're not taking damage and sparring through hits, it forms a different mindset than might be developed where every stroke could be your last. In striking arts, sparring simulates getting hurt/dazed with getting lightly hurt/dazed, so you're operating in a similar zone of degradation. I'm sure even with armor you can get really hurt, but freeplay sounds like you foster continuous exchanging instead of putting a lot of focus into one "final outcome" exchange. Maybe that's an incorrect intepretation.
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Sep 28, 2018 21:20
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The two times I did HEMA-style sparring we used blunt swords and light welding-jacket style armor and when I got hit I knew I'd been loving hit. There were no illusions about it. Death had been thoroughly simulated as much as it is when I tap to a choke. Besides, by the "rules interfere with simulation" argument an NCAA wrestler or Olympic judoka would not know how to "really" fight, because those sports exist in a framework to obtain points and win matches. Those frameworks are just a method of determining superiority in the absence of death.
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Sep 28, 2018 21:28
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Why do y'all think it is that something like wrestling or boxing can be taken outside it's rule set and work versus say tkd where they struggle? Tkd guys are great athletes, they compete, so obviously it's something in how abstract the rules of the sport are versus reality. what are the key factors and what's the curve of effectiveness? I guess Kano figured a lot of this out when he created judo but I've never seen anything detailing his logic or evolution in detail.
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Sep 28, 2018 21:34
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Xguard86 posted:Why do y'all think it is that something like wrestling or boxing can be taken outside it's rule set and work versus say tkd where they struggle? Tkd guys are great athletes, they compete, so obviously it's something in how abstract the rules of the sport are versus reality. As far as I can tell, Kano was all "Yo the way we do stuff is really prone to injury, what if we just laid off throwing dudes on their heads and just threw them on to their back?"
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Sep 28, 2018 21:39
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Xguard86 posted:Why do y'all think it is that something like wrestling or boxing can be taken outside it's rule set and work versus say tkd where they struggle? Tkd guys are great athletes, they compete, so obviously it's something in how abstract the rules of the sport are versus reality. A lot of it is full contact vs. point-based rules, if a ruleset doesn't reward doing a technique more forcefully then it's gonna be less effective. If TKD competition could only be won by TKO then you'd see it evolve into a much more "fight effective" art. Muay Thai without punches might actually be kind of awesome. Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Sep 28, 2018 |
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Sep 28, 2018 21:39
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Mechafunkzilla posted:A lot of it is full contact vs. point-based rules, if a ruleset doesn't reward doing a technique more forcefully then it's gonna be less effective. If TKD competition could only be won by TKO then you'd see it evolve into a much more "fight effective" art. Kyokushin with leg kicks and throws would own e: I think we just invented shootfighting
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Sep 28, 2018 21:44
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Dave Grool posted:Kyokushin with leg kicks and throws would own That's basically just sanshou
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Sep 28, 2018 21:50
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DandyLion posted:Simple. Freeplay where there's no score and no 'winning'. Just honest assessments of people doing as close to 100% as they can and still retain some modicum of control for safety's sake. Any time there's a tangible reason for one to lie about a hit so they can win, you're not getting a representative comparison with real fighting. There's multiple issues with this: How do you determine if the quality of the 'hit' was enough? Even if people say 'I got hit', they're often not aware of the blade angle, arc of the swing, etc. Heck, I've seen plenty of HEMA practice on youtube where someone get hit with the side of the blade and gives up a 'hit' Similarly the amount 'hits' we give up in kendo free practice, compared to the amount that actually gets awarded in competition is probably at a ratio of 20:1. We simply aren't good enough to be able to effectively judge ourselves. We also really don't know how much it'll take to disable a person...and if HEMA is supposed to be realistic, how can you complain about someone hitting too hard? "Sorry, I cut to death too hard" The fact is that there no real way of doing realistic sparring with swords. You can simulate some aspects of it, but it will always have the limitation that we aren't actually cutting/killing each other. Granted, I come from a kendo background, where it's purpose has been clear for years. While it still maintains link to traditional Japanese sword arts, it's very much it's own thing and HEMA still needs to figure what it wants to be.
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Sep 28, 2018 22:06
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Mechafunkzilla posted:A lot of it is full contact vs. point-based rules, if a ruleset doesn't reward doing a technique more forcefully then it's gonna be less effective. If TKD competition could only be won by TKO then you'd see it evolve into a much more "fight effective" art. Yeah I posted then sat in traffic for an hour and came to that conclusion too. Even in grappling you're full contact in the sense of actually throwing/holding.
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Sep 28, 2018 23:10
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Another big factor is how the rules affect defense. E.g. IMO another big problem with TKD and Kyokushin is the "no head punches" rule. This doesn't really undermine the sport's offense, but it does create a big defensive flaw right in the middle of the athlete's comfort zone when that rule is taken away, because there's an inside position where they're accustomed to being able to attack but a major target doesn't need to be defensively covered. For comparison, Judo and Wrestling in the abstract have restrictions on valid techniques, but defending an attempt to throw you on your head isn't much different from defending an attempt to throw you on your back. But vs strikes neither the judoka nor the wrestler are going to sit in striking range and let someone throw punches or kicks because they're not comfortable there - they'll stay outside or get in and grapple. And case in point, go ankle pick a judoka who only entered the sport after the leg grabs were removed from competition and you'll see what I mean. Or throw an IBJJF grappler into a sub-only anything goes environment and see how quickly he gets leg locked. Or shoot a double on a boxer. The rules mitigate the need for sound defense in a particular area.
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Sep 29, 2018 00:02
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CommonShore posted:Another big factor is how the rules affect defense. No head punches is a "problem" in the sense that it moves you farther away from a theoretical "as close as possible to no-holds-barred" style (MMA, basically), but someone who's good at kyokushin will still be able to effortlessly beat the poo poo out of anyone who doesn't do a combat sport. Same with wrestling despite lacking submissions, judo despite lacking shots, etc.
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Sep 29, 2018 00:07
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Mechafunkzilla posted:No head punches is a "problem" in the sense that it moves you farther away from a theoretical "as close as possible to no-holds-barred" style (MMA, basically), but someone who's good at kyokushin will still be able to beat the poo poo out of anyone who doesn't do a combat sport. Same with wrestling despite lacking submissions, judo despite lacking shots, etc. Yeah
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Sep 29, 2018 00:08
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Mechafunkzilla posted:That's basically just sanshou Sanshou has head punches  ask me how I know.You score points for all sanshou techniques, but TKOs are allowed. One of the nuances of the sport is shifting from one strategy (damage to score more easily) to the other (win on points).
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Sep 29, 2018 00:53
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Mechafunkzilla posted:No head punches is a "problem" in the sense that it moves you farther away from a theoretical "as close as possible to no-holds-barred" style (MMA, basically), but someone who's good at kyokushin will still be able to effortlessly beat the poo poo out of anyone who doesn't do a combat sport. Same with wrestling despite lacking submissions, judo despite lacking shots, etc. As it happens, it really doesn't take much striking skill at all to toss someone on their back, get mount, and punch them in the face until they give up/are knocked out.
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Sep 29, 2018 17:03
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