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There's also always the question of why the large organization isn't shoring up the finances given that they are tax free for just that purpose.
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Sep 25, 2018 23:43
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Lutha Mahtin posted:are you seriously making an Ayn Rand argument to explain why a poor parish can't afford to pay their pastor very much No. Obviously poor parishes don't pay their pastors much because they don't have much money. But it's my understanding that even in churches in rich areas, religious leaders don't tend to take home much in the way of salary. Putting aside a small number of megachurch, prosperity gospel pastors, who make an awful lot, clergy tend not to be very well paid. Because I have it easy to hand, the base salary for a Catholic priest in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati is $30,900 a year. http://www.catholiccincinnati.org/ministries-offices/human-resources-office/salaries/ The median salary of an MA in Cincinnati is $51,959 The guidelines for the ECLA Minneapolis Area Synod recommends a base salary+housing allowance for beginning pastors of $59,790. The median salary of somebody with an MA in the Minneapolis area is $63,284. The guidelines for the ECLA Nebraska synod recommends a base salary of $34,088 and a housing allowance of $10,226. Median salary for an MA in Nebraska is 55,054. Keep in mind, the numbers I'm citing aren't based on parish wealth. This isn't the matter of a poor church not being able to pay their pastor a higher salary because they don't have the money. This is the Catholic Church hierarchy and the ECLA hierarchy saying what they recommend a pastor should be paid. So you can't just say "Why does society not think pastors should be paid more" without also saying "Why do the Catholic Church and ECLA not think pastors should be paid more."
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Sep 26, 2018 00:03
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Liquid Communism posted:There's also always the question of why the large organization isn't shoring up the finances given that they are tax free for just that purpose. at this point? they don't want to be involved in class action lawsuits until ALL the clergy sex abuse cases die out, which is unlikely to happen anytime soon like even if there are ZERO cases of it happening today (there are not zero cases of it happening today, but let's hope there are zero coverups even though there are not zero coverups), that's still decades worth of crimes and criminal conspiracies to cover up crimes that are continuing to be unearthed, and will sometimes lead to criminal convictions and likely to class action settlements. a number of parishes have closed down as a result of these cases (which sucks, because it's basically the equivalent of punishing a school for the misdeeds of an administration, or workers for the errors of management, but that's capitalism for you), and that number would potentially increase if parish finances were pooled. also; rich people don't want their money supporting poor people. that's just, like, a thing
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Sep 26, 2018 00:17
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Yup. The difference between the stated mission and the day-to-day methods is always depressing.
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Sep 26, 2018 02:33
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Liquid Communism posted:There's also always the question of why the large organization isn't shoring up the finances given that they are tax free for just that purpose. Most denominations do precisely that. If they decide a church is needed in a place that can't afford to support it, they'll kick in funds from the organization. My mom's home church is even lending a pastor to another small church to help them stay afloat.
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Sep 26, 2018 03:20
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yeah i'm still drafting my huge dunk post on epicurius, but i need to chime in and say that liquid's and senju's recent posts about church governance and finances are just bizarre in terms of their ignorance, regarding how these organizations actually exist, and how they are run
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Sep 26, 2018 03:31
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Lutha Mahtin posted:yeah i'm still drafting my huge dunk post on epicurius, but i need to chime in and say that liquid's and senju's recent posts about church governance and finances are just bizarre in terms of their ignorance, regarding how these organizations actually exist, and how they are run You don't need to actually dunk on me. Write me off as an ignorant idiot if you want. It doesn't bother me.
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Sep 26, 2018 04:18
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Lutha Mahtin posted:yeah i'm still drafting my huge dunk post on epicurius, but i need to chime in and say that liquid's and senju's recent posts about church governance and finances are just bizarre in terms of their ignorance, regarding how these organizations actually exist, and how they are run keep in mind my experience with this poo poo is entirely as a catholic who was in a pew i never had to take any of those church finances classes as an ma student, and as a mts graduate the only difference was the length of the paper i had to write and the number of people who needed to grade it i still feel that the statement "it's capitalism and the only way for it to get better is to overthrow the capitalist system that privileges profit over people" is applicable
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Sep 26, 2018 04:33
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I think your average church is probably not that well-off financially. I've attended multiple churches that met in rented or donated spaces and I remember the preacher's kid getting free lunch in high school.
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Sep 26, 2018 04:41
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Senju Kannon posted:keep in mind my experience with this poo poo is entirely as a catholic who was in a pew yeah i wasn't referring to your posts on economic theory, and while i'm not an internet communist or whatever i would agree that a functional and strong social safety net in the US would be a great improvement for everyone, including and especially lower-middle-class-and-below pastors. it was more the glib statements about "oh but they do this and don't do that and do this other thing and" and like cmon cite evidence hardcore or frogout is my take on that stuff
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Sep 26, 2018 04:51
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I'm pretty sure my priest has a salary, but then, according to our bishop, our parish is home to people whose fundraising and accounting are apparently directly responsible for keeping the whole Metropolis solvent. So we lucked out in having a good budget.
Keromaru5 fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Sep 26, 2018 |
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Sep 26, 2018 05:03
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Senju Kannon posted:parishes are financially independent and depend on tithes and donations from parishioners for funding HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Sep 26, 2018 |
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Sep 26, 2018 07:47
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Lutha Mahtin posted:yeah i'm still drafting my huge dunk post on epicurius, but i need to chime in and say that liquid's and senju's recent posts about church governance and finances are just bizarre in terms of their ignorance, regarding how these organizations actually exist, and how they are run senju would rather blame capitalism than learn i'm afraid
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Sep 26, 2018 07:48
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HEY GUNS posted:senju would rather blame capitalism than learn i'm afraid yeah, i'm pretty sure capitalism IS why you can have a master's degree and still need food stamps, but i guess you're too busy pining for an inbred monstrosity wearing stolen gold and jewels to poo poo themselves on a throne than examine the material reality of capitalism
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Sep 26, 2018 07:56
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So, I'd appreciate some spiritual energy. You know I'm a fellow traveler, and things are really going south. I've had a (hopefully brief) relapse with hard drugs, my anxiety and depression has resurfaced, and I'm trying to work the steps again while taking school and managing a relationship to my parents and girlfriend. Any thoughts or prayers will be appreciated. Thank you! HEY GUNS posted:senju would rather blame capitalism than learn i'm afraid Senju Kannon posted:yeah, i'm pretty sure capitalism IS why you can have a master's degree and still need food stamps, but i guess you're too busy pining for an inbred monstrosity wearing stolen gold and jewels to poo poo themselves on a throne than examine the material reality of capitalism Guys, I'm no expert when it comes to not angryposting, but it sounds like you're directing something at each other that isn't really the others fault. Forgive and move on?
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Sep 26, 2018 09:00
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Tias posted:So, I'd appreciate some spiritual energy. You know I'm a fellow traveler, and things are really going south. I've had a (hopefully brief) relapse with hard drugs, my anxiety and depression has resurfaced, and I'm trying to work the steps again while taking school and managing a relationship to my parents and girlfriend. Energy inbound. Prayers, thoughts, both. Keep up the fight; if you don't know how much you're appreciated and wanted around here, I'll say it. You are.
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Sep 26, 2018 10:56
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Tias posted:So, I'd appreciate some spiritual energy. You know I'm a fellow traveler, and things are really going south. I've had a (hopefully brief) relapse with hard drugs, my anxiety and depression has resurfaced, and I'm trying to work the steps again while taking school and managing a relationship to my parents and girlfriend. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inexhaustible_Chalice Senju Kannon posted:yeah, i'm pretty sure capitalism IS why you can have a master's degree and still need food stamps, but i guess you're too busy pining for an inbred monstrosity wearing stolen gold and jewels to poo poo themselves on a throne than examine the material reality of capitalism  both poorly-paid professions (except law) and too many graduates for the available posts are ancient complaints. 
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Sep 26, 2018 13:02
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Tias posted:Guys, I'm no expert when it comes to not angryposting, but it sounds like you're directing something at each other that isn't really the others fault. Forgive and move on? "You can't forgive in here, this is a Christianity thread!". Best of luck to yourself Tias. I hope that your life improves and that you get what you are looking for. HEY GUNS posted:your situation is as old as the university itself; capitalism can't have been its sole cause. They may well be ancient complaints, but in the same way that we can have problems that technically stretch back millennia we can usually see that there are a great deal of differences in how different time periods experience them. Often the fact that people aren't employed are because the larger state has started abrogating it's responsibilities to local potentates, at least that was one of the reasons for the Qing Empire's own refusal to hire scholars and bureaucrats. Our current system requires a great deal more work to function as it "should". Not least in fair remuneration for everyone.
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Sep 26, 2018 15:39
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Tias posted:So, I'd appreciate some spiritual energy. You know I'm a fellow traveler, and things are really going south. I've had a (hopefully brief) relapse with hard drugs, my anxiety and depression has resurfaced, and I'm trying to work the steps again while taking school and managing a relationship to my parents and girlfriend. St. Maximillian Kolbe, please hear our prayers.
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Sep 26, 2018 17:43
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Thinking of you, Tias. I know plenty of us in this thread love you as dearly as an internet acquaintance can be loved.
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Sep 26, 2018 19:27
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There is always a second chance. You are never at the end of the road. edit: What about you, Joseph bugman? You hanging in there?
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Sep 26, 2018 19:42
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HopperUK posted:as dearly as an internet acquaintance can be loved. Any one of you is welcome to hang out with me in person, if we're ever in the same place. (Except Jastiger, not because i think he'd be bad company but because in the age of #metoo we have to send the message that if you harass women nobody will be friends with you until you repent) I know like...half of the people in the military history thread irl.
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Sep 26, 2018 19:50
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Pershing posted:St. Maximillian Kolbe, please hear our prayers. also st. mark ji tianxiang
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Sep 26, 2018 19:57
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StashAugustine posted:also st. mark ji tianxiang
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Sep 26, 2018 20:07
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HEY GUNS posted:i don't believe there is a distinction between "the internet" and "real life." It's still human contact, and I've made many friends this way. I was really meaning to lean more on 'acquaintance' because I personally don't know Tias very well and we haven't spoken much:) I agree with you, in those terms. And if anyone's ever in the vicinity of St Albans or London, hit me up.
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Sep 26, 2018 20:49
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HEY GUNS posted:edit: What about you, Joseph bugman? You hanging in there? Every day I wake up is another day and I have to keep going for at least a bit longer. Eventually I will die though, so there is that to look forward to!
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Sep 26, 2018 22:08
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as a general aside here, i would like to promote this PSA post of: mental health is cool and good. all well-studied issues classified under "mental health" or "mental illness" are real things that actually exist. they are real, and (can be) strong, and are normal. if you know that you have a condition that falls under this banner, or even if you're not sure but you think you might, realize that it's totally OK. just because you didn't, for example, get a body part cut off, does not mean that you don't have a real medical concern you should be cool, and strong, and good. because you are. you are here, reading this post. i apologize that it is probably, har har har, a post of poo poo quality. but no really, you are thinking about this thing and imo even the understanding that one wishes to improve one's health, by itself, is super significant. so be cool and keep posting here, because we will want to keep hearing from you
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Sep 26, 2018 22:32
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Josef bugman posted:Eventually I will die though, so there is that to look forward to!
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Sep 26, 2018 22:42
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HEY GUNS posted:why don't you keep putting that day off and in the mean time get meds and help! I am not planning on going anywhere until my parents pass away. In the meantime I can keep going for probably another 20 years or so. If I keep on top of my current meds anyway.
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Sep 26, 2018 22:48
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HEY GUNS posted:I will add you to my nightly prayers. you realize you’re defending a status quo that keeps half of the richest country in the world in poverty
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Sep 26, 2018 23:11
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i would love to report the poo poo out of senju and hegel's latest childish snipes at each other but i definitely couldn't explain the reasoning in 140 chars. so fux off, bofa youse
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Sep 26, 2018 23:21
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Lutha Mahtin posted:i would love to report the poo poo out of senju and hegel's latest childish snipes at each other but i definitely couldn't explain the reasoning in 140 chars. so fux off, bofa youse And this is what forgiveness is all about.
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Sep 26, 2018 23:36
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Tias, I am happy that you are my brother in whatever term we may both use to talk about the ultimate meaning.Josef bugman posted:"You can't forgive in here, this is a Christianity thread!". Excellent. Josef bugman posted:Every day I wake up is another day and I have to keep going for at least a bit longer. It's a relief to be able to face our mortality with tenderness and without fear. But then we may as well also look forward to the present, living moment with fearlessness and appreciation as well. It's enjoyable to smile to both life and non-life. And we should also recognize that the conditions for life to manifest are indeed precious, and that they continue to apply to us for as long as we are alive. It may even be enjoyable to nourish life and protect the conditions for it in ways that don't feel unnatural or meaningless. I feel for the pain of living. I hope that you feel free to avail yourself of me and others here and elsewhere in your life for compassionate listening, which is a practice for everyone. I hope it can be relieving and even insight-provoking to have the opportunity to be fully heard and not attacked.
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Sep 26, 2018 23:52
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Thanks everybody  HEY GUNS posted:There is always a second chance. You are never at the end of the road. I'm relatively hopeful. I got a new sponsor who's pretty adamant about drilling some spiritual discipline into me - and, come to think of it, nothing now is what it was like just 5 years ago, so there's no saying how stuff will turn around again. Josef bugman posted:I am not planning on going anywhere until my parents pass away. In the meantime I can keep going for probably another 20 years or so. If I keep on top of my current meds anyway. If you want to talk depression and recovery, hit me up. I've largely turned around from terminal and self-destructive depression to feeling allright most of the time.
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Sep 27, 2018 07:05
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Tias posted:I'm relatively hopeful. I got a new sponsor who's pretty adamant about drilling some spiritual discipline into me
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Sep 27, 2018 09:47
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Lutha Mahtin posted:i would love to report the poo poo out of senju and hegel's latest childish snipes at each other but i definitely couldn't explain the reasoning in 140 chars. so fux off, bofa youse
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Sep 27, 2018 10:19
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Which Early Christian Heresy Are You?
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Sep 27, 2018 21:19
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Monophysite and proud of it  e: the guy who made this quiz also did at least four other fun quizzes: Which Mid-Twentieth-Century Anglican Theologian Are You? (I'm John A.T. Robinson, former Bishop of Woolwich who spearheaded secular theology), Which Minor Shakespeare Character Are You? (Friar Lawrence from The Two Gentlemen of Verona who is so minor that he doesn't even appear onstage), Which Obscure Renaissance Composer Are You? (Laurentius de Vourda, which suits me well because most of his extant works are kept in Munich and Vienna, respectively) and Which Preces and Responses Setting Are You? (the Tomkins Responses which, after giving them a listen of youtube, really are neat!) System Metternich fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Sep 27, 2018 |
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Sep 27, 2018 21:48
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I got Docetism, which in retrospect should come as no surprise. 
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Sep 27, 2018 22:07
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this owns extremely hard I'm going to give #6 as a joke exam question to my chemistry class.
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Sep 27, 2018 22:09
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