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The one thing to watch out for is that minimum damage can be surprisingly high when you count in all the static bonuses. This is not necessarily a bad thing, especially since a major complaint about 4e is how long fights take, but it can p easily wind up in a situation where misses do 20 damage and a hit does 23, which I can imagine being a problem for a lot of players.
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Sep 29, 2018 00:04
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Maybe have misses deal Character Level damage?
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Sep 29, 2018 01:04
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Wait, I take twin strike
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Sep 29, 2018 01:41
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it's a bad idea like the whole premise is based on the concept that decreasing a number by a certain amount and losing the rest of your action is intrinsically more interesting than just losing your action, which is silly you have extra stuff happen on a failed roll in a narrative / skill check context because otherwise the game grinds to a halt. in combat, there is no risk of this happening. the consequence of missing is that an enemy that would otherwise be dead or disabled gets to do a thing before you do, and gets to do more things in total before being removed from play. e: now to be fair it could be a good idea if done for completely different reasons, like making combat faster, attacks more reliable, and the whole situation more deterministic and skillful but if you want to do it for those reasons you really have to consider the math and the consequences almost on a case-by-case basis and that's a lot of work Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Sep 29, 2018 |
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Sep 29, 2018 01:56
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Minimum as-written damage. So minimum diceroll damage+ attribute modifier, no other modifiers apply.
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Sep 29, 2018 01:58
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:
I mean, the dislike stems from boredom intrinsic in waiting for your turn, then having nothing happen on it before having to wait again. So it's both about speed ofcombat and also not feeling like your time is wasted at that point. I get what you mean about a lot more work though. Just trying to find a way to make misses less poo poo and having people switch off on a run of bad luck
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Sep 29, 2018 02:04
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Spiteski posted:I mean, the dislike stems from boredom intrinsic in waiting for your turn, then having nothing happen on it before having to wait again. So it's both about speed ofcombat and also not feeling like your time is wasted at that point. Stealing miss tokens from Strike! might be a less drastic alternative. It provides insurance against the worst-case scenario where you miss over and over against the odds and never get to do anything, without completely upending the combat math. Plus even if a miss token isn't incredibly impactful by itself getting a physical benny when it happens at least offsets the psychological side of things a little. I mean I'm being a little harsh here when, in all honestly, "4E with to-hit rolls eliminated or dramatically de-emphasized" sounds like my dream game. It's just that you're talking about a radically different game at that point. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Sep 29, 2018 |
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Sep 29, 2018 02:08
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Could implement a version of the Miss Token: when you miss, gain a token that you can spend later to either convert a miss to a hit or a hit to a crit. e: beaten
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Sep 29, 2018 02:11
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That there's not a character in Strike book explaining the rules named Miss Tokens is such a tragic loss
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Sep 29, 2018 02:11
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Would miss-tokens or the escalation die be a preferred mechanic for long-term miss reduction?
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Sep 29, 2018 03:27
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I mean I'm being a little harsh here when, in all honestly, "4E with to-hit rolls eliminated or dramatically de-emphasized" sounds like my dream game. It's just that you're talking about a radically different game at that point. yo have you played gloomhaven
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Sep 29, 2018 07:29
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My quick takes: Miss damage is a good idea, but minimum damage strikes me as way too high. Something like attribute modifier damage sounds like it would work, or damage equal to your enhancement bonus. Keep in mind, though, that a lot of abilities trigger off of dealing or taking damage - if you're guaranteed to always deal damage you can use these essentially at will, and they might be more useful than you bargained for. Miss tokens I like better, but only so they give you a bonus to future rolls. "Turn a miss into a hit" (or "hit into crit") is, frankly, completely out of line with 4E's design. One miss token could turn your default ~50% hit chance into a ~50% crit chance, and every halfway optimized game plan would start with "use at-wills to fish for miss tokens, then use them on dailies." Serious optimizers will deliberately attack enemies under total concealment ("I close my eyes as a free action") or find ways to gain at-wills based on their dump stat. Escalation die - no issue there, it plugs into the system nice and easy. You could also just apply a modifier to attack rolls across the board. By default attacks hit roughly 50% of the time, give everyone (including enemies) a +5 to turn that into 75% and see where it takes you. (For easier calculations/lower numbers, subtract 5 from defenses instead.)
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Sep 29, 2018 08:24
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Impermanent posted:yo have you played gloomhaven God yes Gloomhaven scratches the 4e combat itch for me SO GOOD.
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Sep 29, 2018 08:46
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Gloomhaven is loving great, and my rpg group is now doing it every other week.
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Sep 29, 2018 12:23
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My Lovely Horse posted:Miss tokens I like better, but only so they give you a bonus to future rolls. "Turn a miss into a hit" (or "hit into crit") is, frankly, completely out of line with 4E's design. One miss token could turn your default ~50% hit chance into a ~50% crit chance, and every halfway optimized game plan would start with "use at-wills to fish for miss tokens, then use them on dailies." Serious optimizers will deliberately attack enemies under total concealment ("I close my eyes as a free action") or find ways to gain at-wills based on their dump stat. If the group is missing often enough for it to be a complaint, I doubt charop is an issue.
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Sep 29, 2018 15:41
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Impermanent posted:yo have you played gloomhaven I haven't had an in-person group for tabletop in a very long time, unfortunately. Believe me, it's on my list.
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Sep 29, 2018 17:50
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I picked up a 100 count set of poker chips, five different colors. The intention is to write +/- bonuses and penalties on them, to hand out when powers and effects grant them. This is to make it easier for newer players to keep track of all their bonuses. I'm not quite sure what to label though; most likely a +/- 1 and +/- 2, leaving a fifth color for something. Most of the bonuses I've seen have been those two numbers, and with 20 of them that should be plenty to cover things like +4. Any suggestions for the fifth set, or any other changes? I could also do the +/- on opposite sides of the same color if there was something better to use on the now extra chips. That could lead to issues with running out of something though, if a big buff goes out.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:49
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Physical Action points are something I readily suggest.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:25
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We've 3D printed action points, miss tokens and strike tokens for our Strike game. I could certainly see doing something similar for fighter marking, hunters mark and the like if I was to run 4e again.
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Oct 1, 2018 18:30
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I have a ton of X-Wing Miniatures target lock tokens leftover; those may work well for marking as well
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Oct 1, 2018 18:51
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How do I explain reskinning to someone who really cares about the details of a monster, and how it's okay to just use a monster block. Like, I guess if you wanted to use an adult black dragon, how do you explain away dragon breath?
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Oct 6, 2018 08:23
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Yukari posted:How do I explain reskinning to someone who really cares about the details of a monster, and how it's okay to just use a monster block. Like, I guess if you wanted to use an adult black dragon, how do you explain away dragon breath? You cross out the words ;'dragon breath' and replace them with 'acid cloud spell' or 'gas grenade' or ...whatever. In short, fi you're DMing and you reskin a monster, the players should never know you did it.
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Oct 6, 2018 09:38
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thespaceinvader posted:You cross out the words ;'dragon breath' and replace them with 'acid cloud spell' or 'gas grenade' or ...whatever. This. Black dragon breath is just an acid damage close blast. That can be a lot of things.
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Oct 6, 2018 10:25
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Yeah I turned a red dragon into a giant firestorm elemental. The stats worked perfectly. Just had to rename some stuff.
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Oct 6, 2018 13:33
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thespaceinvader posted:In short, fi you're DMing and you reskin a monster, the players should never know you did it. Reskin the dragon breath to a flamethrower, the flight to a jetpack, the wing buffet to a repulsor field, and you're set for your gonzospace bounty hunter fight in your ultima 1-style game, which for some reason you've also decided to run in 4e.
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Oct 6, 2018 17:23
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Ysengrin posted:Reskin the dragon breath to a flamethrower, the flight to a jetpack, the wing buffet to a repulsor field, and you're set for your gonzospace bounty hunter fight in your ultima 1-style game, which for some reason you've also decided to run in 4e. You laugh, but the game I'm running has an extinct culture that was high tech rather than magic, so I have turned a couple 'big monsters' into robots and prepared some tech items like a holography system (hat of disguise) for players to pick up from their ruins.
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Oct 6, 2018 19:48
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Prism posted:You laugh, but the game I'm running has an extinct culture that was high tech rather than magic, so I have turned a couple 'big monsters' into robots and prepared some tech items like a holography system (hat of disguise) for players to pick up from their ruins. May I introduce you to the living construct subtype?
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Oct 6, 2018 20:32
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Like there's no actual reason why your players would ever know what your monster started off as. Unless they're staring over your shoulder as you plan stuff, how would they ever know the crazed alchemist used to statistically be a dragon? If they want mechanical details, give them the mechanical details. If they want fluff details, give them fluff details. Those don't have to be the same thing.
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Oct 6, 2018 22:11
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I know a lot about 4e, but when a DM pulled out a psychotic Goblin on a wagon that burst into flames if we dazed it, I was absolutely clueless as to what it originally was
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Oct 6, 2018 22:41
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I've also gone the other way, reskinned other solos as dragons for multi-phase fights.
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Oct 8, 2018 03:20
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The issue is that the abilities don't make sense for her, the DM. Like how does a huge thug do a 60ft cone of acid? Crazy alchemical grenade, and he's like Jekyll?
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Oct 8, 2018 19:25
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Yukari posted:The issue is that the abilities don't make sense for her, the DM. Like how does a huge thug do a 60ft cone of acid? Crazy alchemical grenade, and he's like Jekyll? Yes? If the abilities are something you totally can't make work for that specific reskin, just don't reskin that specific monster, or reskin it to something different.
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Oct 8, 2018 19:47
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Yukari posted:The issue is that the abilities don't make sense for her, the DM. Like how does a huge thug do a 60ft cone of acid? Crazy alchemical grenade, and he's like Jekyll? Drop the acid part and make it a flurry of chucking like a billion knives.
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Oct 8, 2018 19:47
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He has a pressure washer hose attached to his back, filled with alchemists fire/acid/whatever the frost equivalent is. His 60' cone of acid attack is him spraying the party down with it.
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Oct 8, 2018 19:49
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All of that, and more. But also: maybe don't reskin a dragon to a thug. You absolutely can, but dragons are so iconic and their abilities so specific that you should probably only reskin them to similarly unique enemies in the context of your game. I think the frost equivalent to Alchemist's stuff is literally Alchemist's Frost, too.
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Oct 8, 2018 20:20
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Yukari posted:The issue is that the abilities don't make sense for her, the DM. Like how does a huge thug do a 60ft cone of acid? Crazy alchemical grenade, and he's like Jekyll? He takes a draught of dragonbreath from a double-reinforced flask with about five skulls on it and BLAAAAAAAAARGH. And while it's on cooldown he's desperately trying to work up the courage for another belt.
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Oct 8, 2018 20:28
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Yukari posted:The issue is that the abilities don't make sense for her, the DM. Like how does a huge thug do a 60ft cone of acid? Crazy alchemical grenade, and he's like Jekyll? he's actually the shocker and every time he uses that ability, he slaps his hands together and then a big old cone of sonic energy destroys the terrain. the thug is an ogre, and lifts up a loving tree and then smashes it down — and the tree happens to hit a cone area for blunt damage it's a gorgon, and the gaze represents it's "petrifying gaze" except instead of dnd "save or die" this is more of a "if you hit zero from this you turn to stone". the thug is riding a gondian warmachine, and the machine has a flamethrower on it. the thug has a final fantasy sword and
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Oct 8, 2018 22:41
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Thug on a wagon, pulling out inventions in a desperate attempt to escape W-W-W-WIZARD THUG Dragonborn thug whose breath weapon means the business Priest thug of the god/goddess of [something nasty] Thug is in a mechanized suit! But oh no, you hit the gas line, and it's exploding everywhere!
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Oct 9, 2018 02:58
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Yukari posted:How do I explain reskinning to someone who really cares about the details of a monster, and how it's okay to just use a monster block. Like, I guess if you wanted to use an adult black dragon, how do you explain away dragon breath? Bit of a weird question: has anyone ever gone through all the 4e powers and feats and pulled out all the "cool" ones? I don't mean most effective, I mean the ones with the neatest mechanics.
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Oct 9, 2018 09:11
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I mean, the answer is also "well, don't do that then." You want to make a basic thug with a bat what's got nails in it and you're trying to figure out how to refluff the massive dragon? Well, don't do that then. Reskin a different, more fitting monster.
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Oct 9, 2018 10:27
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