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Furnaceface posted:CTV was saying we ceded ground on IP, but not to the extent the USA wanted. Whelp, time to get a vpn I guess... Well might not be as bad... https://twitter.com/CBCKatie/status/1046588505680486400 apatheticman fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 04:51
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The name change is so loving petty. He's such a petulant child that he couldn't let it stand that a trade deal would be still named the same because Bill Clinton signed it Daniel Dale's notes say that they're claiming 'groundbreaking IP changes'
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Oct 1, 2018 04:55
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Pretty sure everyone is just going to keep calling it NAFTA regardless.
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Oct 1, 2018 04:58
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Helsing posted:I admit I'm not all that familiar with local Vancouver politics but these just sounds like pressure groups for credentialed professionals making $70K a year and feeling the increasing squeeze of late capitalism. I mean I looked up what HALT stands for and it's literally got "Taxpayers" right in the title and its telling people that high house prices are the fault of foreigners. Helsing your posts and our conversations IRL (I used to be Communocracy, bought a name change for funs and to help SA) are most of the reason I stopped being a nihilist and got involved politically and by extension the reason that I am employed by NDP-affiliated orgs currently. It makes me really sad to see how much hope you've lost but yes, absolutely the party is pretty out of touch. It kinda just strengthens my resolve to continue involvement though. I'm in a rare position of being educated enough and positioned enough to be active but also having grown up low income to relate to the struggles faced by for instance Jane and Finch voters. You said the ONDP's turn to the left this election cycle was 'unconvincing' but isn't it possible they actually do see the writing on the wall and are losing their fear of being actually socialist? I just have a hard time believing the party is totally unreedemable at this point, especially since my interactions with Communist party and Marxist-Leninist party supporters have been nothing but super negative. (YCL are ignorant tankie fuckheads.)
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Oct 1, 2018 05:48
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Furnaceface posted:Hell, is it even possible to have a Canadian version of someone like that? It's an interesting question, and I've been thinking about it recently. There's a lot that works against Canada having radical movements, from our federated system that devolves a lot of power to the provinces, the first past the post system that encourages majority governments, a long-standing oligarchy that works in a relatively invisible fashion to maintain stability, our history of jailing and persecuting radicals, and, if you think it matters, even our constitutional mission statement of "peace, order, and good government." What this means is that if you do get a rash of radical politics, it's generally quarantined within one province. The way to bring about radical political ideas and policies is to make them mainstream, and use the full force of government to bring them about. For example, Tommy Douglas's NDP government had to ship in doctor scabs when they first implemented public healthcare and the province's doctors went on strike. In exchange, you make these policies so integral to Canadian institutions that they lose any radical edge and become subsumed to the state. This is why unions weren't busted with a Canadian Taft-Harley Act in the 1950s, in spite of Canada having a long-standing tradition of jailing communists, the unions de-radicalized and in some industries, dissipated entirely. Social and political stability are things that many people in North America undervalue these days, especially when Canada has, at times, been incredibly unstable. People can make fun of me for saying this in the most Canadian way possible, but there is value in being able to make fundamental changes to how we choose to support one another in our society without people throwing down in the streets. Saying that, I recognize that these changes don't happen without a vibrant and energized left that doesn't merely conceive of a better society as what we have now just slightly tweaked, but conceives of a society with a vastly different form of social, political, and economic organization. Edgar Quintero posted:You said the ONDP's turn to the left this election cycle was 'unconvincing' but isn't it possible they actually do see the writing on the wall and are losing their fear of being actually socialist? I just have a hard time believing the party is totally unreedemable at this point, especially since my interactions with Communist party and Marxist-Leninist party supporters have been nothing but super negative. (YCL are ignorant tankie fuckheads.) Is there any group that will seriously talk about left-wing politics in Canada? It seems like America has a more engaged left in spite of being a tiny minority in the electorate. Dreylad fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 06:49
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Dreylad posted:Is there any group that will seriously talk about left-wing politics in Canada? It seems like America has a more engaged left in spite of being a tiny minority in the electorate. I think the left is engaged in America because of the particular dynamics of American politics from 2015 to the present. The high-profile Sanders campaign showed leftists that some of their ideas really could find purchase in contemporary America, which really shattered the TINA idea that the Democratic Party has been built on for the past three decades. Then Clinton's embarrassing loss showed that milquetoast third-wayism can't even accomplish the one thing it was supposed to accomplish, which was to win elections so that society could make incremental progress rather than regressing under the right-wing--which I would argue was a big part of inspiring the progressive left to start fighting the primary battles that have led to some high-profile losses for Democratic leaders and other Democrats being forced to at least adopt the rhetoric of left-wing ideas like universal healthcare. And of course the last two years of Trump have really galvanized opposition the same way the American right was galvanized under Obama. We don't have any of those conditions in Canada. The closest I think we're coming is the QS campaign in Quebec right now, which will most likely not win power but, if we're lucky, will mobilize leftist ideas for future elections. Instead we're in a situation that continues to remind me a lot of the US under Obama, where we have a charismatic leader who says a lot of things that imitate progressivism while simultaneously not really acting on any of them, in favour of neoliberal centrism. Which has the dual result of firing up the right-wing that hates when he says progressive things and depressing the left-wing that either gets complacent because they think one of their own is in power, or gets discouraged because handsome centrism appears so popular, and moves to imitate that rather than offer an alternative. I've been thinking a lot about something Helsing posted a few weeks ago, which is the idea of losing well in politics. The article Helsing posted was talking about how Obama was a bad loser in the sense that he didn't make his opponents fight for their wins, conceded too much, and wasn't willing to use the power he had to win the long-term fight even if he was losing the short-term battles. This is something the Democratic Party is really bad at, but I think there are a couple examples of the American left losing really well in the last few years. The Sanders campaign lost well, because it actually galvanized people into fighting for change long after it was over, and really shifted the boundaries of what Democratic politicians will talk about and fight for, which looks like it could have really important long-term political ramifications. The current fight against Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation will probably lose, but it seems to be losing well by exposing the entire process as a corrupt, partisan sham that will potentially delegitimize Kavanaugh as a justice if/when he does get confirmed. The American left has been galvanized by a few moments where they lost well. The Canadian left consistently loses with a whimper and a "well maybe you'll like us more if we act just like the other guys?" And in the rare cases when they do win, they accomplish very little and just try to be slightly more socially responsible and slightly more competent managers of rapacious capitalism. As you've pointed out, the structure of Canada's institutions, and the people produced by those institutions, are much more geared towards order and stability than towards the anarchic chaos of the American system that allows political movements to build themselves through the mechanisms of politics itself. To illustrate what I mean, you need only look at how the US primary system allows anyone to run and win an election if they get lucky enough, whereas the Canadian party system means the central leadership of a party exercises complete control over who that party nominates to run. The one example we have in the modern world of a real leftist taking power through the Westminster system was Corbyn and, as Helsing loves to mention, he succeeded purely because he was at the head of a mass movement outside political institutions. If Momentum wasn't behind him (well, he wouldn't have even run, but that's neither here nor there) he would have just been another failed and forgotten leadership candidate who was runner-up to the next Tony Blair or Ed Milliband, just like the random professed leftists that occasionally run in NDP leadership campaigns. Political discourse doesn't randomly shift on its own, political parties play an important role in constructing how we talk about politics, but they are far from the only bodies that can do that. The ecosystem of political discourse is vast and right now ours is dominated by a professional managerialism that affects all our major political parties and the sources of discourse outside them. It would be entirely possible for a political party like the NDP to lead the charge for real left-wing thought within a changing political discourse, the way Labour has in the UK under Corbyn, but that would require a leftist to win the NDP leadership election and at the present moment I don't think that's possible because the NDP is so committed to the professional managerial form of political institutions and policy debate.
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Oct 1, 2018 07:17
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It appears NAFTA 2.0 has been signed and one of the concessions that did go through was giving USA access to import dairy to Canada. There are going to be a lot of bankrupt dairy farmers in the next few years.
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Oct 1, 2018 09:26
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zapplez posted:It appears NAFTA 2.0 has been signed and one of the concessions that did go through was giving USA access to import dairy to Canada. No there isn’t. They weren’t given unlimited access. They were given something close to the same deal that TPP countries were.
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Oct 1, 2018 09:40
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Furnaceface posted:CTV was saying we ceded ground on IP, but not to the extent the USA wanted. Daniel Dale was posting some snippets because apparently the text was posted on a US government website (whose link no longer works, so maybe an official jumped the gun? heh): we're extending copyright to life+70 instead of life+50, and pharmaceutical patent data from 8 to 10 years, but none of the data locks or criminalization of copyright evasion that the US was pushing for in TPP that were previously rejected. Also, Chapter 11 is going to be phased out? That's a bit surprising: https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/1046616094964948992
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Oct 1, 2018 11:03
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The thing about the TPP is that it was a new deal that gave us trade access to new countries, concessions we made in that was to secure that access. These concessions were made just so that we keep the existing deal we had because our trading partner decided to extort us.
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Oct 1, 2018 13:14
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Chapter 11 is what held up Churchill’s rail line from getting fixed for 2 years and essentially allowed an American company to hold a town hostage so that’s good. Any extensions in drug patents makes national pharmacare less and less likely.
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Oct 1, 2018 13:48
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DynamicSloth posted:These concessions were made just so that we keep the existing deal we had because our trading partner decided to extort us. The timeline of this trade deal was dictated by the transition of the Mexican govt and rushed to deny the incoming govt from influencing the negotiation (although it looks like they are broadly on board with the new agreement?). It looks like this deadline undermined both Canada and Mexico's bargaining position, at least to the extent that a bilateral US-Mexico deal was ever a serious possibility. It's not clear if the elimination of chapter 11 is significant, which seems to be the main "gain" for Canada.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:11
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DynamicSloth posted:The thing about the TPP is that it was a new deal that gave us trade access to new countries, concessions we made in that was to secure that access. Getting extorted for something you were going to give someone two years ago before they walked away is a pretty low price to pay.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:29
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ocrumsprug posted:Getting extorted for something you were going to give someone two years ago before they walked away is a pretty low price to pay. Again concessions made in the TPP were being given to get a trans Pacific trade pact, not getting to keep access to the North American market. Neo-liberals will happily sell out everything we have to the autocrats just on the imaginary promise that the old order will be restored. A NAFTA that the US can threaten to leave without consequence any time they think they can shake down a departing Mexican regime or market captured Liberals, isn't worth any concessions. Neither is a trade agreement where one side reserves the right to impose massive tariffs beyond the reach of the agreement any time they feel like telling a tiny fib about national security concerns.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:41
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Hey to all you people crying that no real leftist parties exist in Canada, please tell your friends living in Québec to go vote today for Québec solidaire. Thanks!
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Oct 1, 2018 14:43
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Yea great, we've at least got racist french Canadians to show us all how left-wing they can be, as long as they don't have to let any muslims live here or wear their dumb religious clothes.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:51
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DynamicSloth posted:A NAFTA that the US can threaten to leave without consequence any time they think they can shake down a departing Mexican regime or market captured Liberals, isn't worth any concessions. Neither is a trade agreement where one side reserves the right to impose massive tariffs beyond the reach of the agreement any time they feel like telling a tiny fib about national security concerns. CBC is reporting that the sunset clause (unless all three agree after a certain period of time the deal is dismissed) was extended from five years to 16, renewable following a six year review. Still, dangerous precedent, I agree. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/usmca-nafta-what-we-know-1.4845103
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Oct 1, 2018 15:10
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ChairMaster posted:Yea great, we've at least got racist french Canadians to show us all how left-wing they can be, as long as they don't have to let any muslims live here or wear their dumb religious clothes. Shut up, you are proving once again how ignorant you are.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:23
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DynamicSloth posted:Again concessions made in the TPP were being given to get a trans Pacific trade pact, not getting to keep access to the North American market. The dairy tariffs were an arbitrary corporate protection that had no benefit for consumers. The average Canadian had no love for supply management before Trump was on the other side of the issue. It makes perfect sense to get rid of it though. We can’t really be mad about Trump auto tariffs if we established Class 7 pricing for milk long after NAFTA was signed because “welp butter is popular again”. If Trump had any respect for the WTO, he would’ve had a pretty strong case there regarding milk pricing. Also it sounds like Canada got an exemption for 232 tariffs.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:25
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Sage Grimm posted:CBC is reporting that the sunset clause (unless all three agree after a certain period of time the deal is dismissed) was extended from five years to 16, renewable following a six year review. Still, dangerous precedent, I agree. That would be a lot more comforting if the current crises had been brought about because of the previous sunset clause, instead of Trump just deciding he wanted to renegotiate and Congress handing him a rubber stamp
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Oct 1, 2018 15:26
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Starks posted:The dairy tariffs were an arbitrary corporate protection that had no benefit for consumers. Source?
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Oct 1, 2018 15:29
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The USMCA sounds like the NAFTA equivalent of the American Dodgeball Association of America.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:30
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The USMCA sounds like a fictional army from a futuristic space marine video game
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Oct 1, 2018 15:31
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DynamicSloth posted:That would be a lot more comforting if the current crises had been brought about because of the previous sunset clause, instead of Trump just deciding he wanted to renegotiate and Congress handing him a rubber stamp Oh, the sunset clause wasn't part of the original agreement; NAFTA was to run indefinitely. It was introduced during the early days of renegotiation as an 'aggressive tactic' on the part of the US trade representatives.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:32
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ARACHTION posted:Hey to all you people crying that no real leftist parties exist in Canada, please tell your friends living in Québec to go vote today for Québec solidaire. Thanks! I went out and voted QS thanks in large part to all that effort posting, thanks for the hard work.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:32
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Sounds more like the US nationalized the YMCA to me.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:32
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John Wilkes Booth posted:I went out and voted QS thanks in large part to all that effort posting, thanks for the hard work. Thanks!!! I’ll do an effort post tomorrow about the results.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:35
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ARACHTION posted:Hey to all you people crying that no real leftist parties exist in Canada, please tell your friends living in Québec to go vote today for Québec solidaire. Thanks! I don't have any friends in Quebec and only one "person" is crying that currently.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:39
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Risky Bisquick posted:Source? I guess it’s more anecdotal than anything. Outside of a few industry groups, I heard 0 outcry when we gave it up in CPTPP or when we were going to give it up in TPP. People were much more concerned about investor-dispute resolution and IPR. I tried to find polling data from before Trump about it and couldn’t find any, likely because it wasn’t even a major political issue before 2018.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:40
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CLAM DOWN posted:I don't have any friends in Quebec and only one "person" is crying that currently. Haha too true.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:43
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Risky Bisquick posted:Source?  http://angusreid.org/supply-management-nafta-renegotiation/
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Oct 1, 2018 15:43
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I'd hazard a guess that the average Canadian didn't even know supply management was a thing let alone give a poo poo about it enough to be upset by giving the US roughly the same access to the cheese market that we recently gave Chile. If giving that up meant keeping the dispute resolution system and dropping the ability for US companies to sue the government, then I'm fine with less than 4% of the dairy in grocery stores being American. Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 15:44
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Would you rather pay more money or less money?  Honestly given the question I'm surprised even 30% said they'd rather pay more money.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:47
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I mean, solely focused on price and asking a simplistic question like that, what the gently caress did you expect?
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Oct 1, 2018 15:50
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You can't be serious ikantski, go through the rest of that study. Read the title of your reference chart and compare it to the chart below. quote:When presented with arguments for and against supply management and then offered two prices – one, the current rate, and another, a reduced rate that research suggests would be a result of scrapping the system – two-thirds of Canadians opt for the cheaper price for milk, cheese, eggs, and chicken
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Oct 1, 2018 15:51
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Facebook Aunt posted:Would you rather pay more money or less money? Some of us pay more with the expectation of better quality. “You get what you pay for.” (Not saying it’s right or wrong, just that some people think this way.)
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Oct 1, 2018 15:55
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Risky Bisquick posted:You can't be serious ikantski, go through the rest of that study. Read the title of your reference chart and compare it to the chart below. i am always serious about milk and polls. how can you love something you know nothing about. the guy said canadians had no love for SM. your little chart 58% know nothing at all about SM. so we can say the majority of canadians had no love for supply management. Evis posted:Some of us pay more with the expectation of better quality. “You get what you pay for.” (Not saying it’s right or wrong, just that some people think this way.) The pay more people had a strong skew towards 18-36 left leaning avocado toasters
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Oct 1, 2018 16:01
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Lol there's an explicit point to ensure that grocery stores in BC can't just stock BC wine and have to bring in US wine too. When that "BC only" rule was introduced by the BC Liberals it seemed so obviously against NAFTA.
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Oct 1, 2018 16:02
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Arcsquad12 posted:The USMCA sounds like the NAFTA equivalent of the American Dodgeball Association of America. Now you're just making it sound more fun than it is.
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Oct 1, 2018 16:04
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Postess with the Mostest posted:i am always serious about milk and polls. how can you love something you know nothing about. the guy said canadians had no love for SM. your little chart 58% know nothing at all about SM. so we can say the majority of canadians had no love for supply management. More like 95% have nfi about supply management, and 65-70% of people would prefer to pay less for the same item in the context of what they know about supply management.
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Oct 1, 2018 16:06
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