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Discendo Vox posted:This is a rough draft of part of my effortpost so I don't lose it. It's pretty readable in this form? All I saw was a bunch of poo poo-talking SOMA and them's fighting words. Good post
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Oct 1, 2018 03:36
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I haven't played SOMA but I know a decent amount of people liked it and I know that the popularity of a product doesn't mean it's actually any good but imo you came across as more than a little bit pissy and contrarian about it.
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Oct 1, 2018 04:04
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SOMA was ok but I saw the direction the game was going in fairly early on which just kind of made me feel disconnected from the story. Games like Pathologic and The Void were better because I never knew what the gently caress was going on and I got sucked right in.
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Oct 1, 2018 04:22
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Too Shy Guy posted:I have returned. Yes! Very excited for this.
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Oct 1, 2018 04:48
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Here goes. I am going to try to apply the framework I had above to SOMA and see where that gets me. This wasn't planned, I promise! The problem of SOMA is that its plot and a *huge* proportion of its existential and mind/body horror are based on. 1. Implication, atmospheric or stated horror elements, where the player is told something as scene-setting that has really dark/existential connotations. These involve both direct and indirect processing, but they're all built on a common set of facts about the environment. 2. Agentic horror- that the protagonist does a thing and they/the player are affected by the consequences and outcomes. This unto itself is fine and good, if the player and the protagonist's impressions of these concepts match, and if the stated material helps provide a structure that invests the player in the agentic horror. It can be really impactful to pair those functions! The problem is that the stated material, and the concepts SOMA explores, are all very old and well-treaded questions in science fiction and very basic philosophy. These are, and I'm not being flippant, philosophy 101 discussion prompts about identity and theory of mind. The protagonist never fails to be shocked and surprised and horrified by technologies that do these things, even when the concepts are explained to him in advance. But the player? The player has a distinct chance to see almost every single "curveball" coming, taking them completely out of the experience. And if the player is a fan of sci fi or has any philosophy experience, it's... OK, you know that moment like ten seconds into A Machine for Pigs where you hear laughter and see blood and go "oh, his kids are dead."? It's that, but for the entire game, with no further surprises. The player doesn't identify with the player character, and the sense of stakes and agency is destroyed. The player doesn't spend time processing the concepts or realizations involved, because a) to the player, they're obvious and b) the player doesn't really care. SOMA depends heavily, really really heavily, on the novelty of its concepts to produce agentic horror via player actions. That's a problem when the concepts are old hat to a big part of the playerbase! For those people who "get it", it's as if those ghost kids are giggling at you from around every corner in increasingly dramatic re-reveals. There's very little else going on, because the game doesn't have, for example, combat or resource management, or other mechanical loops to engage the player, other than the stealth, which isn't the greatest. SOMA and the Frictional library as a whole stand out as games that would benefit a lot from some additional core systems to help balance player flow. Hence, Vakal posted:SOMA was ok but I saw the direction the game was going in fairly early on which just kind of made me feel disconnected from the story. (and now I want to do a whole post on stealth, expectations, conscious and unconscious learning and tension.) Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 05:09
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Alternatively, SOMA just doesn't have any curve balls and never intended to. They lay out pretty quickly how things work, and you're just watching a train wreck in slow motion. Like Lone Survivor is a game where you can pretty quickly figure out what's going on and it ruins the experience because it doesn't want you to buy into it until it's ready to pull the rug out. I think SOMA goes out of its way to lay down its rules pretty well, and makes it very clear that it's just Simon refuses to accept them because to that means accepting how bleak their situation is. Although definitely if they're well tread concepts for you then yeah they're just might not be that much there interesting. edit: I think the closest it has to a curveball is that the WAU (probably) isn't sapient, which I don't know connected with enough people. And that's really just a sci fi video game expectation. TGLT fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 05:50
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I didn't get into that part because I can't wrap my head around what they were thinking with that. I sort of had to assume it was for people who really, really didn't understand any of the concepts involved, and skipped every bit of explanation. Because, man, wow, the light-years-long cold void of space has nothing on the wedge that drives between the player and the person they are playing as. There's definitely a role for that in horror game design, but it's normally accomplished by establishing connection with the player character, then subverting it through sudden loss of agency (think undertale here).
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 06:08
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quote:This is a rough draft of part of my effortpost so I don't lose it. It's pretty readable in this form?
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Oct 1, 2018 08:29
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Now do a breakdown of Pathologic and The Void because I'm literally in love with those janky Russian nightmare simulators
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Oct 1, 2018 11:52
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There's problems with SOMA plot, and problems with its story/gameplay integration but I cannot understand why something being very basic philosophy would ever be a problem. The reason why you might sound a little ott is not that you are wrong in thinking SOMA is going through a already very established ground, it's just that there's no harm in that imo. So what this video game didn't throw the philosophy community on it's heels, scrambling for the solution to the problem presented. Games like SOMA and shows like The Good Place are not trying to appeal to philosophers exactly; but bringing very basic concepts of philosophy to people who might otherwise have never engaged. Or seek to recontextualize problems in a new way or make them more accessible. The fact that so many people did seem to think it deep does lend credence to the fact that there aren't just that many people who know or thought about philosophy 101. Now what you could focus in is if SOMA presents those problems well, or if it's misinformed about them. Being basic is just like, being accessible.
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Oct 1, 2018 12:32
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Meallan posted:There's problems with SOMA plot, and problems with its story/gameplay integration but I cannot understand why something being very basic philosophy would ever be a problem. The reason why you might sound a little ott is not that you are wrong in thinking SOMA is going through a already very established ground, it's just that there's no harm in that imo. So what this video game didn't throw the philosophy community on it's heels, scrambling for the solution to the problem presented. Games like SOMA and shows like The Good Place are not trying to appeal to philosophers exactly; but bringing very basic concepts of philosophy to people who might otherwise have never engaged. Or seek to recontextualize problems in a new way or make them more accessible. The fact that so many people did seem to think it deep does lend credence to the fact that there aren't just that many people who know or thought about philosophy 101. There's also something to be said for having an interactive experience giving a more tangible idea of such philosophical concepts. Many people end up digging more into the subject matter, so that's a win in my book.
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Oct 1, 2018 13:33
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Blattdorf posted:Many people end up digging more into the subject matter
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Oct 1, 2018 13:46
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I mean if they cared enough to buy the game and play to completion I have to assume they found some of the concepts interesting, unless they were just hate-playing it.
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Oct 1, 2018 13:48
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Here's something I really don't know about SOMA, and I'd like some clarification on it from someone who does. The game's plot seems to have heavy overlap with some of the lesswrong Roko's Basilisk poo poo. That's just because they're drawing on similar sources, right...?
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Oct 1, 2018 13:51
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Discendo Vox posted:Here's something I really don't know about SOMA, and I'd like some clarification on it from someone who does. The game's plot seems to have heavy overlap with some of the lesswrong Roko's Basilisk poo poo. That's just because they're drawing on similar sources, right...? Other than some pretty superficial similarities I don't think SOMA has anything to do with that, no.
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Oct 1, 2018 13:55
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CharlestonJew posted:I mean if they cared enough to buy the game and play to completion I have to assume they found some of the concepts interesting, unless they were just hate-playing it.
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Oct 1, 2018 13:56
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Cardiovorax posted:I mean, I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't buy video games on the basis of how much I am interested in whatever pop-philosophical concepts they contain. That's more what I read books for. I buy them based on how much fun they look to play. SOMA's gameplay was completely boilerplate "find the switch, walk down the corridor, hide from the monster" stuff so it doesn't do too well by that criteria either hell most good horror games are not what i would describe "fun to play" by any reasonable metric
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Oct 1, 2018 13:58
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To be fair, that pretty much describes every game by the Penumbra guys, so if there is someone who liked one of them already, it's reasonable to assume they'd like the rest.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:04
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Cardiovorax posted:Citation needed. Sorry, but I just plain don't believe that. If people didn't care before the video game, they won't care after the video game. I think people in this thread (might have been a different thread) were asking for and sharing sci fi short stories after finishing Soma a while back. My memory is pretty bad but I'm pretty sure it happened somewhere. I don't have a citation though sorry.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:06
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Ferrous posted:I think people in this thread (might have been a different thread) were asking for and sharing sci fi short stories after finishing Soma a while back. My memory is pretty bad but I'm pretty sure it happened somewhere. I don't have a citation though sorry.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:16
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I think SOMA's biggest strength is that, even if it's concepts are extremely basic, it presents them in a way that isn't really possible in other mediums. The many deaths of Brandon Wan is a sequence that isn't going to have the same impact with the player being personally involved.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:17
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Cardiovorax posted:OK, I mean, I can see that, but sci-fi stories and philosophy are kind of not the same thing. Speaking as someone who really likes both, there. Seems like these goalposts are a bit blurry but fair enough.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:20
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Jukebox Hero posted:Now do a breakdown of Pathologic and The Void because I'm literally in love with those janky Russian nightmare simulators Two of the raddest games ever.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:29
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Ferrous posted:Seems like these goalposts are a bit blurry
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Oct 1, 2018 14:37
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Stop me if I've made this rant before, but with recent attempts into making a White Wolf-esque game in the Nighthawks Kickstarter, Vampyr and whatever exists of Focus's Werewolf: The Apocolypse, do we have many games these days to scratch the specific itch of being a monster in a world of monsters? Though not much different than any survival horror where a bunch of poo poo lurks in the dark waiting for an opportunity to eat you, there's something a little different when you too are normally something that is scary - at least to a regular human, newly awakened among greater predators and forces that can easily squash you like a gnat. Whether its a monster on a ruined world like Legacy of Kain or part of some great monstrous society like Vampire the Masquerade and all of its questionably fulfilling imitations, there's something that is rarely ever utilized in this kind of setting that I'd like to see in horror. That a civil hunter is still a hunter.
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Oct 1, 2018 14:46
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Oct 1, 2018 14:58
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I’ve never played the Void and I don’t think I’d ever want to, but I do enjoy reading about it because it seems like one of the most unique games ever created.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:29
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In terms of gameplay, it's really a pretty vanilla FPS-adventure with some vague resource management elements. In terms of setting and plot? I'm still not sure what it's about, and I've played it.
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Oct 1, 2018 15:36
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Cardiovorax posted:In terms of gameplay, it's really a pretty vanilla FPS-adventure with some vague resource management elements. In terms of setting and plot? I'm still not sure what it's about, and I've played it. so you're saying it's an ice pick lodge game
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Oct 1, 2018 15:41
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Discendo Vox posted:Here's something I really don't know about SOMA, and I'd like some clarification on it from someone who does. The game's plot seems to have heavy overlap with some of the lesswrong Roko's Basilisk poo poo. That's just because they're drawing on similar sources, right...? Catherine at one point says "It set the ball in motion, but not with purpose" the implication being that the WAU is basically just an advanced learning AI instead of a fully sapient super AI. It's not doing what it's doing to punish anyone, it's doing what it's doing because the end of the world sets "preserve human life" way above any other objective it's tasked with. At least that's my read on it. So no, no Basilisk poo poo.
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Oct 1, 2018 16:01
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quote:so you're saying it's an ice pick lodge game TGLT posted:So no, no Basilisk poo poo. ...yeah, I kind of dislike those guys.
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Oct 1, 2018 16:04
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 1. Little Nightmares    Atmosphere is a tricky thing to get right in any game, or media, really. It’s easy to imagine a creepy bedroom or ominous boat because your mind fills in the gaps without really telling you what it’s filling in with. That becomes clear when you try to translate that to a piece of art, or even just an explanation to someone else. Mastering this challenge is what makes Little Nightmares so special, bringing to life its damnable ship of grotesque monsters and impossible architecture in ways that will stick with you long after you see the grim story to its conclusion. It’s a performance powerful enough to overlook the gameplay shortcomings for, because it’s not often you find a vision so fully realized as this. Tiny Six is a stowaway on the titanic vessel known as The Maw, a dark and twisted assembly of pipes and chains and bunkrooms and kitchens all rumbling away with nefarious activity. For whatever reason, Six abandons the relative safety of a secluded nook and sets about escaping The Maw, and running afoul of its foul inhabitants in the process. Exploring the ship will take Six to dank holds of rotting meat, workshops full of unsettlingly-small shoes, grimy kitchens piled with questionable morsels, and worse places still in their ill-defined quest. Along the way you’ll learn far more about The Maw and its inhabitants than you ever dreamed, and the revelations you stumble across are sure to stay in your nightmares. It might be hard to believe but Little Nightmares lives up to that flowery prose in a big way. Every room you poke your adorable head into is a fully-realized place, with a function and story all its own. Towering armoires, crooked toilets, and vast bins of abandoned shoes each work to paint a vivid picture of the hellish place. The Maw is a terrible, unsettling place because its bizarre architecture and grotesque decor actually feel grounded and tangible. There’s a strong bent to the art style that hearkens to rich animated films, Spirited Away chief among them, and is granted vitality through clever use of depth of field and impressive scene lighting. This is really the crux of the game’s appeal, the incredible atmosphere. And it’s not just present in the environments, but in the encounters as well. As you guide Six through the oversized decks and halls you’ll run afoul of grim, hideous figures carrying out their dark work. Everything about them is wrong, from their proportions to their breathing to their twitching to the very sound of their footfalls. They’re introduced suddenly, occupy prominent places in your path, and enjoy some inspired scripted sequences that pit you against them in terrifying ways. Like any horror game the tension breaks down if you foul up a sequence too many times and their scripted animations are more convincing than the dynamic ones where they catch you, but the challenge here is in a good place to keep you just far ahead of them enough to stay unnerved. That touches on the big weakness of the game, the gameplay. Normally this is the kiss of death for even the most atmospheric games but understand that the action in Little Nightmares isn’t bad, just thin. Six can run, jump, slide, creep, climb, and huck just about anything they can carry, and the puzzles and platforming challenges you’ll face will require all of those skills in concert. Some of the puzzles are downright inspired, like the sausage grinder, but most of what you’ll be doing is scampering up and down furniture to get to the duct to the next room. Coupled with the brevity of the game at less than three hours, this can leave you feeling like you haven’t accomplished much in The Maw. There are a handful of collectibles to locate on your journey, and that’s it. My biggest complaint about Little Nightmares is that I wish there was more of it, and really that can be seen as a compliment. The experience of traversing The Maw and outwitting its horrible residents is a real thrill, and the fantastic art style is wonderfully effective at getting your imagination going. There are plenty of shocks to be had, and not all of them come at the hands of the monsters. Assuming you’re okay with a concise platformer rich in atmosphere and tension and light on action, Little Nightmares is sure to deliver.
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Oct 1, 2018 16:32
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One of John Wolfe's (Formely HarshlyCritical) friend, (Girl Gamer Gab), has some pretty interesting horror games from Japan that were never brought to America. She translates them as she plays through them and it allows us to see some really weird poo poo that never made it to the rest of the world. Her playthrough of PS2 FMV "Horror" game ("The Fear") really gives me flashback to the Shlocky FMV horror game "Night Trap".
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Oct 1, 2018 16:48
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Discendo Vox posted:The problem is that the stated material, and the concepts SOMA explores, are all very old and well-treaded questions in science fiction and very basic philosophy. These are, and I'm not being flippant, philosophy 101 discussion prompts about identity and theory of mind. The protagonist never fails to be shocked and surprised and horrified by technologies that do these things, even when the concepts are explained to him in advance. But the player? The player has a distinct chance to see almost every single "curveball" coming, taking them completely out of the experience. And if the player is a fan of sci fi or has any philosophy experience, it's... Thanks, this was exactly what I said when I played this. Well, something like it, I think my statement might have been more like "why SOMA guy not get plot" Cardiovorax posted:reverse-causality "you will give MIRI institute money because otherwise our future AI will put infinite simulations of you into robot hell forever" thought experiment Yeah, Roko's Basilisk also hinges on the idea that when people can be digitized in the future, an AI can re-create a digitized "you" to put in Android Hell just from reading your blog posts that you made in today's time, which is really a leap that even their basic idea doesn't address. Section Z posted:YWhile nowhere near horror, guilty pleasure game "Breakdown" on the old Xbox This game was awesome, I wish people could play it these days. Cyberdud posted:One of John Wolfe's (Formely HarshlyCritical) friend, (Girl Gamer Gab), has some pretty interesting horror games from Japan that were never brought to America. Thanks for this, do you have any other recommendations from her channel? She also translated the (very good) Bathroom demo for John, that's totally worth watching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M52hiNngHyk
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Oct 1, 2018 17:21
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Man, why would Silicon Valley turbonerds think that you can create a perfect simulation of reality by data mining Internet posts?
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Oct 1, 2018 17:24
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Halloween Jack posted:Man, why would Silicon Valley turbonerds think that you can create a perfect simulation of reality by data mining Internet posts? The internet is their entire life, why wouldn't it be everyone's? At least, that's the reasoning I'd assume.
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Oct 1, 2018 17:27
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Halloween Jack posted:Man, why would Silicon Valley turbonerds think that you can create a perfect simulation of reality by data mining Internet posts? because ANY TECHNOLOGY SUFFICIENTLY ADVANCED IS you know the rest and it's dumb
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Oct 1, 2018 17:40
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Skyscraper posted:Well, something like it, I think my statement might have been more like "why SOMA guy not get plot" Yeah this was my takeaway too. That, and the rolling my eyes at the game insisting that each transition between bodies was a "coin flip", as if you were rolling the dice every time you hit that "upload to new body" button. You're making a literal copy and you're not it! This is not complicated!
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Oct 1, 2018 18:48
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Poulpe posted:Yeah this was my takeaway too. life is simply unfair
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Oct 1, 2018 18:52
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Too shy, I really agree with you on little nightmares. It's so short and really leaves you wanting more. However the complete game on sale is a decent deal. I really like what they've done with the dlc levels. Did you get a chance to review the dlc levels?
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Oct 1, 2018 18:57
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