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The thing about Strahd is that each chapter is basically a whole new setting with plot hooks and ideas. The "theme" of the whole mod is, "grind your powerlevel to defeat Strahd" but it does a pretty good job of hiding that behind a lot of other horror tropes and distractions. It is best enjoyed as a series of spooky adventures leading up to a dramatic confrontation, intermixed with Strahd being an intermittent, nonlethal dick.
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Oct 1, 2018 16:04
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i love horror fantasy settings a lot of the time...maybe i might give the module a shot when i stop being a noob at dnd.
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Oct 1, 2018 16:23
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Gharbad the Weak posted:Healing being a limited but meaningful resource that doesn't take up the healer's main action is a pipedream 
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Oct 1, 2018 16:35
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I played a Grave Cleric through Tomb of Annihilation and maybe it’s because their domain spells and focus was debuffs, popcorn healing, and ranged bonus action Spare the Dying in an adventure where dying was explicitly a one-time event due to the macguffin, however I’d have liked there to be some gravitas to going to zero often. My party would rush headlong into creature encounters while I would Bane or Ray of Enfeeblement and they knew that I’d always have a bonus action Healing Word to use when they hit zero and I could still follow up with a sacred flame or toll the dead, while concentrating on the debuff. It sort of ties the multiple conversations happening here into one example of how legendary resistance is unfun for a player, but necessary to keep an encounter challenging and threatening. Also that popcorn healing is expressly a bad oversight in design.
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Oct 1, 2018 17:06
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koreban posted:I played a Grave Cleric through Tomb of Annihilation and maybe it’s because their domain spells and focus was debuffs, popcorn healing, and ranged bonus action Spare the Dying in an adventure where dying was explicitly a one-time event due to the macguffin, however I’d have liked there to be some gravitas to going to zero often. I did the same thing with a light cleric. Nuke, nuke, get a body off the floor, fireball, rinse and repeat.
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Oct 1, 2018 17:16
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Sage Genesis posted:A while ago I told you that a friend of mine was going to DM and he didn't know which adventure yet. That choice has been made: Strahd. It's a sandbox with the overall goal of, as Mendrian mentioned, obtaining levels, magic doodads, and allies until you're strong enough to challenge and defeat the big bad. There's various points of interest, many involve combat, some involve really hard combat, and some involve avoiding combat given the level you typically encounter them at. There's a couple small-to-medium sized dungeons around, and Castle Ravenloft which is gigantic. You don't really need a Cleric since you've already got a Paladin - the biggest impact a Cleric would have is access to Greater Restoration, but that comes pretty late. My general advice would be to make sure the Wizard takes Protection from Evil and Good, Detect Magic, Identify, and Remove Curse. Also for one of you to be good at wielding one-handed (finesse) weapons - it typically ends up being a Paladin if there's one in the party for various reasons I won't get into, but if they're instead opting for big weapon spec then the Rogue works in a pinch.
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Oct 1, 2018 17:27
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It's the age old case of yes the status quo is bad, but is this a good way to resolve it? It's just another counter that does nothing until it kills you. So more bookkeeping with minimal play impact.
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Oct 1, 2018 17:36
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Splicer posted:It's the age old case of yes the status quo is bad, but is this a good way to resolve it? It's just another counter that does nothing until it kills you. So more bookkeeping with minimal play impact. making the players feel threatened to go down is honestly the most important thing, and the wound counter does this without keeping people down and out of the game.
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Oct 1, 2018 18:10
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Conspiratiorist posted:That said, the magic system is also so broken that you can throw in no-save spells that can be just as strong; for instance, get a Wizard to 9 and you can totally cheese big bad Strahd von Zarovich by locking him inside a Wall of Force cube and just cooking him from the outside with the Sunsword. Strahd can escape through the floor in this case.
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Oct 1, 2018 18:31
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MonsterEnvy posted:Strahd can escape through the floor in this case. I mean, setting wise Strahd can do whatever he likes. The entire Domain of Barovia exists solely for the Dark Powers to gently caress with him for their own amusement, and there is precisely zero chance of PCs permanently doing away with him and depriving them of that fun.
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Oct 1, 2018 18:40
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MonsterEnvy posted:Strahd can escape through the floor in this case. Wrong. Completely surrounded he can't do poo poo, and doesn't have any teleports.
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Oct 1, 2018 18:52
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Our current campaign started with curse of strahd and I'm still very nervous for when robbing the lich of his spell book will come back to bite us in the rear end
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Oct 1, 2018 19:01
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Why didn't you just kill it?
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Oct 1, 2018 19:06
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Conspiratiorist posted:Legendary Resistance has to exist because of how hard the CC available to the party can be - it's a consequence of the fundamental issues with the magic system. It's also pretty lovely not just because of the cop-out feel, but because it generally forces the crowd control er crowd to engage in the HP damage game - maybe that's not so bad in itself, but it'll certainly throw unskilled players out of the loop. Legendary Resistance should just cost the boss 20% of its HP or something like that. If a crowd control spell was a good damage spell that got through, it would probably have done that much damage, too, and that way, enchanters and illusionists don't have to break character and throw Meteor Swarms because the mechanics of boss fights are bad.
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Oct 1, 2018 19:08
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Oh, I'm sure a dark, horrible creature whose existence is an atrocity to the cycle of life and death will NEVER escape from Ravenloft. I mean, what're the odds? 
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Oct 1, 2018 19:09
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There's very little reason for Mr. X to leave unless you, huh, took away his subject of study.
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Oct 1, 2018 19:21
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Splicer posted:It's the age old case of yes the status quo is bad, but is this a good way to resolve it? It's just another counter that does nothing until it kills you. So more bookkeeping with minimal play impact. As Proud Rat Mom stated, the players should feel *some* measure of vulnerability in these encounters. It’s honestly bad enough that most daily combat encounters are basically exercises in resource management with near zero consequential risk to the overall mortality of the players. Boss fights should invoke that risk of death. As often as I, as a DM, was frustrated because a player pulled out a clutch Counterspell, or Absorb Elements, or Shield, or used a Sentinel feat to counter my intended action or my successful hits (I mean, poo poo, after level 6 with my Grave Cleric, my DM basically never got to critically hit anyone in the player’s party because of Path to the Grave - a critical hit that I see can be changed to a normal hit with no critical effects using my reaction). Giving one creature at the end of a dungeon or plot arc the ability to do this back to the players is okay, and probably a good thing overall. Yeah, maybe it’s frustrating for the player at the time, but the victory will be more exciting, the DM will have a little more fun giving back what they’ve gotten from the players, and the creature will feel like it was tougher than the average mooks. E: to be clear - this should apply to boss-type encounters. Don’t do this every game session with every NPC with a proper name, because that would be horrible to play against.
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Oct 1, 2018 19:31
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Conspiratiorist posted:Wrong. Completely surrounded he can't do poo poo, and doesn't have any teleports. He can go through the floor as mentioned. Unless he was in the air so you could catch him with the full sphere, the Hemisphere version allows him to escape through the floor. Cause he has mist form and the lair action to move through the Walls and floors at will.
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Oct 1, 2018 19:41
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MonsterEnvy posted:He can go through the floor as mentioned. Unless he was in the air so you could catch him with the full sphere, the Hemisphere version allows him to escape through the floor. Cause he has mist form and the lair action to move through the Walls and floors at will. I have noted some arguments between players and DMs before on whether stuff like that actually works on the floor. Came up when looking up Cube of Force stuff actually, a lot of people thinking you'd be shot up several feet into the air if you chose to not let the field pass through the floor.
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Oct 1, 2018 19:51
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MonsterEnvy posted:He can go through the floor as mentioned. Unless he was in the air so you could catch him with the full sphere, the Hemisphere version allows him to escape through the floor. Cause he has mist form and the lair action to move through the Walls and floors at will. An invisible wall of force springs into existence at a point you choose within range. The wall appears in any orientation you choose, as a horizontal or vertical barrier or at an angle. It can be free floating or resting on a solid surface. You can form it into a hemispherical dome or a sphere with a radius of up to 10 feet, or you can shape a flat surface made up of ten 10-foot-by-10-foot panels. Each panel must be contiguous with another panel. In any form, the wall is 1/4 inch thick. It lasts for the duration. If the wall cuts through a creature's space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (your choice which side). Sphere one inch off the floor centered on him, gets pushed into the bubble. Done.
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Oct 1, 2018 19:58
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Globe of invulnerabity is a strong contender for my 6th level spell slot on my divination wizard. Any other contenders?
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Oct 1, 2018 19:59
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"We've got Strahd surrounded! We win D&D forever!" "What? No, he just dissipates in to the fog with a mocking laugh." "Nuh-uh! I had my cloak of awesome on and everything!" People trying to rules lawyer their way out of a narrative always tickles me.
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Oct 1, 2018 20:09
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kidkissinger posted:Globe of invulnerabity is a strong contender for my 6th level spell slot on my divination wizard. Mass Suggestion is a pretty bonkers AOE save-or-lose effect (no concentration, extremely long duration) that can singlehandedly win encounters against anything capable of being charmed
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Oct 1, 2018 20:12
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LGD posted:Mass Suggestion is a pretty bonkers AOE save-or-lose effect (no concentration, extremely long duration) that can singlehandedly win encounters against anything capable of being charmed This is up there, but Im not sure it will be useful since we're just getting to the bottom of ToA. I fully expect Acererak to show up at any moment and murder us though.
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Oct 1, 2018 20:21
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Conspiratiorist posted:Why didn't you just kill it? We were really weak off from the boss fight with our ex party member who was possessed by the dark force controlling the mists
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Oct 1, 2018 20:31
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Gearhead posted:Oh, I'm sure a dark, horrible creature whose existence is an atrocity to the cycle of life and death will NEVER escape from Ravenloft. I mean, what're the odds? hey as long as no one is stupid enough to cast greater restoration on him it'll be fine! I'm sure no one capable of that will visit barovia now that its no longer a misty hell island that kills anyone who gets close
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Oct 1, 2018 20:34
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Farg posted:hey as long as no one is stupid enough to cast greater restoration on him it'll be fine! I'm sure no one capable of that will visit barovia now that its no longer a misty hell island that kills anyone who gets close Sweet summer child, Barovia is always Hell.
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Oct 1, 2018 20:57
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Arthil posted:Sweet summer child, Barovia is always Hell. Ravenloft is the Hotel California of DnD. Except it makes reservations for certain deserving bastards all on its own.
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Oct 1, 2018 21:06
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Have you guys heard about Jungle Tomb of the Mummy Bride"? Someone I know linked this on Facebook. It's a module with a grindhouse, B-movie kind of feel (and title).
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Oct 1, 2018 21:54
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kidkissinger posted:Globe of invulnerabity is a strong contender for my 6th level spell slot on my divination wizard. Contingency, Mass Suggestion.
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Oct 1, 2018 21:55
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Conspiratiorist posted:An invisible wall of force springs into existence at a point you choose within range. The wall appears in any orientation you choose, as a horizontal or vertical barrier or at an angle. It can be free floating or resting on a solid surface. You can form it into a hemispherical dome or a sphere with a radius of up to 10 feet, or you can shape a flat surface made up of ten 10-foot-by-10-foot panels. Each panel must be contiguous with another panel. In any form, the wall is 1/4 inch thick. It lasts for the duration. If the wall cuts through a creature's space when it appears, the creature is pushed to one side of the wall (your choice which side). ElGroucho posted:"We've got Strahd surrounded! We win D&D forever!" You can make a sphere at a point you choose, and you can push a dude into the middle of it. That's what the rule says. That's not rules-lawyering. It's not an exploit, or trying to gain the most favorable interpretation of the wording, or arguing over the definition of "and". Yeah, it overcomes the boss ability. As written. No special interpretation needed. What of it? If I cast that, and the DM pulls "uh, nuh uh, because he just can, what even are rules, you know", at that point we're not playing a game, I'm being allowed to partially narrate myself through someone else's story. E: I mean if I pulled that poo poo once without thinking about it and used the dome but he dropped through the floor, I'd assume that I had the solution nearly right because it would be exactly the same as a signpost for "you have to trap him on all sides." E2: also yeah, at no point but the climax should "beat the big bad in a fight" win a horror themed game, but you don't do it by just going "nope, actually you don't". Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 22:19
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Proud Rat Mom posted:making the players feel threatened to go down is honestly the most important thing, and the wound counter does this without keeping people down and out of the game. koreban posted:As Proud Rat Mom stated, the players should feel *some* measure of vulnerability in these encounters. It’s honestly bad enough that most daily combat encounters are basically exercises in resource management with near zero consequential risk to the overall mortality of the players. Boss fights should invoke that risk of death. koreban posted:As often as I, as a DM, was frustrated because a player pulled out a clutch Counterspell, or Absorb Elements, or Shield, or used a Sentinel feat to counter my intended action or my successful hits (I mean, poo poo, after level 6 with my Grave Cleric, my DM basically never got to critically hit anyone in the player’s party because of Path to the Grave - a critical hit that I see can be changed to a normal hit with no critical effects using my reaction).
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Oct 1, 2018 22:36
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AlphaDog posted:E2: also yeah, at no point but the climax should "beat the big bad in a fight" win a horror themed game, but you don't do it by just going "nope, actually you don't". If the system and module offer the DM no way to avoid it, and if disregarding those is cheating or railroading, what should he/she do?
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Oct 1, 2018 22:51
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hyphz posted:If the system and module offer the DM no way to avoid it, and if disregarding those is cheating or railroading, what should he/she do? Take the loss and congrat the players. Then figure out something new and cool to do
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Oct 1, 2018 22:55
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mastershakeman posted:Take the loss and congrat the players. Then figure out something new and cool to do That would break AlphaDog’s E2 principle above.
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Oct 1, 2018 22:59
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Splicer posted:Like I said, it's addressing a genuine issue, I'm just not convinced the specific implementation is addressing it particularly well or elegantly. Or maybe it's just because I've seen the same goals achieved better so I'm not judging it on its own merits. I'm only human! Do you have an example in mind? Genuinely interested to see how it's handled in other systems. quote:I think you started replying to a different post here? Maybe one of the legendary resistance posts? Also yeah I played a grave cleric and now my DM twitches any time I ask if I can see someone. No, it was a continuation of the thought about your statement about a counter with little to no impact on the game other than to draw the combat out. I was saying that players would often do that using the abilities I listed towards me (as the DM). And having the same sort of tabled turned on the players during boss encounters seemed to be only fair and right. I'm sure my DM hated every time I "nope!"d his crits against our squishies and we won the fight with minimal damage taken. Similarly, the players hitting that early crit on a boss (like in my LMoP example) got a taste of it back. It's not like I took away a crit every time the Paladin hit one (I didn't), but in that one instance, yeah, it was warranted. The combat took 2 additional rounds, about 30 minutes of table time, versus the 8 minutes it would have been over in if he had landed the crit. I felt good about the decision and when the players realized his staff had charges of Shield and Mage Armor on it, it made sense to them that he'd be defensively-minded and able to do something like that. If another system does it better though, I'm all ears. I've been writing up a set of general modifications to 5e that I'm shamelessly stealing from other systems (so not quite houserules because they're other people's rules - PF2PT's initiative-on-stats system, wounds/dying system), and I've got a section on combat modifications that I'm using to balance encounters against things like a tweaked greyhawk initiative rounds, giffglyph's CR calculator/Song of the Blade's encounter builder, etc. Ways to handle boss creatures that doesn't use the legendary actions system is something I'm interested in.
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Oct 1, 2018 23:05
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hyphz posted:If the system and module offer the DM no way to avoid it, and if disregarding those is cheating or railroading, what should he/she do? mastershakeman posted:Take the loss and congrat the players. Then figure out something new and cool to do hyphz posted:That would break AlphaDog’s E2 principle above. I don't know the module well, but I loving bet there's scope for some kind of Return/Revenge/Bride of Strahd scenario which lets you play the rest out pretty similarly. That's 100% within both horror and fantasy genre expectations without just being a dumbshit "uhhh no that ruins everything" cockblock. Also the same tactic won't work again because the Return/Revenge/Bride of Strahd is more powerful than ever before ahahahaha which is also 100% etc etc. And yeah, the oldschool solution is definitely "now you get to tell the story about the time you were smartasses and won ravenloft in 37 minutes", but that's not how D&D works now, right? e: Not sure if I'm being clear, but to me there's a huge, obvious difference between the obvious railroad "no, you don't, you fail, he escapes, because I said so" and the genre staple "you didn't really kill him after all and now he's back and stronger than ever". Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 23:12
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hyphz posted:If the system and module offer the DM no way to avoid it, and if disregarding those is cheating or railroading, what should he/she do? You'd have to entirely rework how Curse of Strahd functions both mechanically and narratively. The issue is that Strahd is the big scary bad when he can wipe the party with a fireball or two, but once you get to level 6+ he's entirely beatable within the context of the rules, and soon afterwards there aren't even any allies left in Barovia for Strahd to use that can even threaten the player group. Strahd transitions to just being kind of an rear end in a top hat with layered defenses that prevent you from killing him immediately even if you dominate the fight, and strong escape mechanisms that allow him to flee when the going gets rough for him. Back in his castle it's the same situation magnified, where he doesn't so much get stronger but rather he gets more mechanisms to just be annoying and try and wear the party down. One of the card readings is explicitly to nail down the place he will not run from so you can finally loving kill him. Now, you could make him stronger in a straight-up fight, and iirc the module makes recommendations to this effect, but this also runs into the issue of raising the competence level required for a party to have a good chance against him once they've done everything they should. After all, that is the entire goal of the module - becoming strong enough to face him. The fact that this happens over the course of like a week comes down to how leveling works - a user here compared the narrative timeline of the average D&D campaign to essentially be like the Cranked movies, and that's true here. You all of the sudden become able to gently caress his poo poo up because you found a magic gizmo + your class abilities finally kicked in. So if the DM lets him get caught in a PC trap, that's it, Strahd will go down in short order. This can even happen accidentally and that's just D&D and its mechanics. Do you tell the players "no, actually you did not win because"? It's up to the DM to play Strahd competently and avoid an anti-climatic confrontation/resolution like that. He is supposed to be a clever villain, though on the other hand, the PCs are also likely to be the first group adventurers ever that manage to confront him with at least a couple of the legendary anti-Strahd items. You can play it off as finally being done in by overconfidence. AlphaDog posted:I don't know the module well, but I loving bet there's scope for some kind of Return/Revenge/Bride of Strahd scenario which lets you play the rest out pretty similarly. That's 100% within both horror and fantasy genre expectations without just being a dumbshit "uhhh no that ruins everything" cockblock. Also the same tactic won't work again because the Return/Revenge/Bride of Strahd is more powerful than ever before ahahahaha which is also 100% etc etc. Curse of Strahd is a well regarded D&D scenario but... it's still a D&D scenario. Don't assume so much. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Oct 1, 2018 |
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Oct 1, 2018 23:15
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If there's no scope at all to have "you beat him, he returns" happen, then yep, I'm wrong as gently caress.
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Oct 1, 2018 23:19
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AlphaDog posted:I don't know the module well, but I loving bet there's scope for some kind of Return/Revenge/Bride of Strahd scenario which lets you play the rest out pretty similarly. That's 100% within both horror and fantasy genre expectations without just being a dumbshit "uhhh no that ruins everything" cockblock. Also the same tactic won't work again because the Return/Revenge/Bride of Strahd is more powerful than ever before ahahahaha which is also 100% etc etc. missed opportunity to do the Symphony of the Night upside-down castle continuation with the "real" Strahd at the end.
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Oct 1, 2018 23:21
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