|
im depressed lol posted:Are you guys honestly harping on this metal-box being used as an example of dehumanization by bean counters just to get some "common sense" points? What is the point of this derail besides being right about something that you're obviously right about? Because it's not "a cage". It's literally the industry standard material you use around the cab of like any sort of vehicle that could ever have stuff falling or getting kicked up around it. like no one is going to see this thing and then freak out that it's practically inhuman and this is like going to work in a prison. And the person sitting is locked up in a cage.  It's just literally how you make windows on stuff rugged. It's not locked, they don't trap you in. It's just mesh.
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 05:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 09:21 |
|
|
For sure harvesting crops is the same thing as picking boxes
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 05:58
|
|
|
Vegetable posted:I used to drive a forklift, and there are a good number of people working alongside human-operated forklifts who would really appreciate that cage-on-a-robot contraption. Owlofcreamcheese posted:Because it's not "a cage". It's literally the industry standard material you use around the cab of like any sort of vehicle that could ever have stuff falling or getting kicked up around it. Bezos is a vampire, sent to drain Retail destroyers, make you have no shame And what do I get, for my posts? Betrayed intentions, and no piece of brain Even though I know, I suppose I'll show All my old songs, like old jobs Despite all the rage they will still just post for the cage Despite all the rage they will still just post for the cage Then someone will say that they'd love to be in the cage Despite all the rage they will still just post for the cage
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 06:04
|
|
|
Is that a zwan song?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 06:07
|
|
|
The New Radicals I think. But anyway just getting into this ridiculous tangent about loving cages and wanting to be right about cages. Instead of using my ability to form words into sentences for any useful purpose I choose to continue an argument no one is having with anyone.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 06:10
|
|
|
HEY NONG MAN posted:For sure harvesting crops is the same thing as picking boxes Like is the idea that warehouses are inherently safe and amazon is loving that up? The are piles of heavy objects stacked up and multiple vehicles driving around indoors. Of course you need safety equipment. That isn't some new wrinkle that something would want an enclosed cab around things that could fall or be knocked over or around running machinery.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 06:12
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like is the idea that warehouses are inherently safe and amazon is loving that up? The are piles of heavy objects stacked up and multiple vehicles driving around indoors. Of course you need safety equipment. That isn't some new wrinkle that something would want an enclosed cab around things that could fall or be knocked over or around running machinery. Hey, Owlofcreamcheese. You may lack an ability to see how you are posting in this thread, so let me summarize how I am perceiving you and just why it's not necessary to harp on these cages: "Oh I see some new posts here in the Retail Collapse thread. Hm.... how technology transforms our thinking of the natural world, and how it is an important topic as we are discussing issues such as labor-compensation, automation and effective removal from the labor market a whole swath of individuals & diminishes their quality of life in this increasingly obvious reality of Amazon as being one of the few employments sources for people..... treating human beings as little squishy automatons among the sturdier, more robust and controllable metal ones. That's... not my area of expertise. But I do know people need cages sometimes! How about I disingenuously (I hope) post about this stupid cage instead of trying to discuss why this would be brought up in regards to the needs of Amazon warehouse workers, and how their managers feel it necessary to protect them from insane, hypothetical machinery required to grab INSERT FUNNY AMAZON PRODUCT HERE in the first place? I will not give you any benefit of the doubt that this just a stupid way of describing how pursuits for profits can diminish an individual's quality of life. I just... lack the imagination for this. But I do want to post about I think is important. And what's important (apart from being right about something.... ANYTHING) is to express how necessary this cage is. I will not address the silliness inherent to this. I have to harp about cages. This cage, is very important. Do not take away this cage's, and many other cages', value. Cages serve many functions. You are foolish to think you won't need this cage. Cages have saved many peoples lives. I don't see a problem with this cage. The cage is a life-saving device. Cage. Cage. Cage. Oh I'm derailing the thread about cages? You're trying to get the conversation back in line regarding that.... stuff... on topic? No. Here is a picture of a tractor."
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 06:37
|
|
|
If you get the right grapple attachment for that tractor, you might be able to use it to start digging up now, depressed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 06:53
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:If you get the right grapple attachment for that tractor, you might be able to use it to start digging up now, depressed. I wonder if they'll have cages in the first Amazon warehouse on the moon? Will they stock the parts necessary for my tractor on earth? VVVV Thank you VVVVV im depressed lol fucked around with this message at 12:54 on Oct 1, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 07:03
|
|
|
BrandorKP posted:Squalid, a lot of it seems to break down across a particular line. Dialectic thought, many of our Marxist posters are doing what you describe. There has been some particularly harsh bad takes on "technocrats" in the last year in D&D. Thing is they are correct on most of the moral points. I don't think these things have to be incompatible, but the current zeitgeist is treating them as they are. Was going to say, you're going to see a lot of harsh takes on technocrats for the next few years because it has been becoming clear how limited and unrealistic the idea that technology, and specifically the logic of programming, can be used to solve societal problems all by itself is. Especially in the form of 'disrupting' industries, which is generally a feel-good label put over 'ignoring the reasons regulation exists and flouting it to make money at the cost of everyone doing things the right way'. JustJeff88 posted:I know that is just for a laugh, but I think about it a lot and the fact that automation is something that people are terrified of just breaks my heart. Not having to work as hard being a point of (sadly justified) public dread is the greatest indictment of the social order that I can think of. Few people fear working less. Everyone fears being made redundant by automation when the American social safety net is effectively a blindfold and a cigarette before the firing squad.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 07:06
|
|
|
im depressed lol posted:Hey, Owlofcreamcheese. You may lack an ability to see how you are posting in this thread, so let me summarize how I am perceiving you and just why it's not necessary to harp on these cages: Just because your username now accurately reflects your mental state doesn’t mean that insane ramblings about the ~deeper meaning~ of basic industrial automation and safety equipment (protip there is none it’s all extremely banal) are an acceptable form of self-therapy. Take your meds, McDowell.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 10:36
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
How about this. People who don't like bodily injury can have their cages and people who think they're Spider-man can keep doing what they're doing. Can we now please end this derail?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 10:45
|
|
|
Soooo......Sears is still dying, like a grandfather in hospice. Stock's even reached Dollar Menu status. What's up with that?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 12:24
|
|
|
Balliver Shagnasty posted:Soooo......Sears is still dying, like a grandfather in hospice. Stock's even reached Dollar Menu status. What's up with that? They can't compete with Amazon, all physical retail is suffering. Malls are dying, Home Depot and Lowes are everywhere (also having problems though afaik) Sears is basically like a general store, those don't exist anymore.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 12:26
|
|
|
im depressed lol posted:"Oh I see some new posts here in the Retail Collapse thread. Hm.... how technology transforms our thinking of the natural world, and how it is an important topic as we are discussing issues such as labor-compensation, automation and effective removal from the labor market a whole swath of individuals & diminishes their quality of life in this increasingly obvious reality of Amazon as being one of the few employments sources for people..... treating human beings as little squishy automatons among the sturdier, more robust and controllable metal ones. it's just not necessary to try and cook up some way literally every single thing you find is actually "very spooky, I'm deeply disturbed". If you can find the employees manual and it mentions you need to wear hard sole shoes or something it's totally okay to say "oh, sounds like a normal thing" without some weird I'm 14 and this is deep style "it means they require you to harden your soul!!!". Like some stuff can just be normal and not everything is something sinister.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 13:33
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:it's just not necessary to try and cook up some way literally every single thing you find is actually "very spooky, I'm deeply disturbed". If you can find the employees manual and it mentions you need to wear hard sole shoes or something it's totally okay to say "oh, sounds like a normal thing" without some weird I'm 14 and this is deep style "it means they require you to harden your soul!!!". Like some stuff can just be normal and not everything is something sinister. im depressed lol posted:Yeah the dehumanizing angle is way too heart-stringy, I dunno where I was going with that. Edit: I guess owl solved this, and we're just all too stupid&14 to figure it out BrandorKP posted:No unfortunately, because there isn't an answer yet. It hasn't been figured out. Here's what would say, we need more systems thought. Right now there is a whole lotta looking at particular varibles, maximizing and minimizing for individual variables. Linear programming type thinking. There should be more looking at the whole, at the full systems of our businesses and our society and the state and trends of the whole system. I know I'm not only one saying this (cause I picked some of it up in grad school). But systems thinking is a lot harder to teach. It's also harder to communicate. im depressed lol fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Oct 1, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 13:34
|
|
|
Balliver Shagnasty posted:Soooo......Sears is still dying, like a grandfather in hospice. Stock's even reached Dollar Menu status. What's up with that? Randian CEO has very nearly finished cannibalizing the corpse of a retail giant and is about to move on to the next host.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 15:40
|
|
|
I don't understand how this is actually profitable for him. Or is he really just losing a shitton of money in pursuit of his crazy ideals?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 15:49
|
|
|
 My god these poor caged workers (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 15:49
|
|
|
Cicero posted:I don't understand how this is actually profitable for him. Or is he really just losing a shitton of money in pursuit of his crazy ideals? Yes too all except he isnt losing shitloads of money due probably some big payoff on his exit. Just a bit less than if he were actuslly running a successful company. As is standard for all CEOs nowadays. Also rich people aren't as smart as they'd like you to think.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 16:03
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Was going to say, you're going to see a lot of harsh takes on technocrats for the next few years because it has been becoming clear how limited and unrealistic the idea that technology, and specifically the logic of programming, can be used to solve societal problems all by itself is. Especially in the form of 'disrupting' industries, which is generally a feel-good label put over 'ignoring the reasons regulation exists and flouting it to make money at the cost of everyone doing things the right way'. That's not what a technocrat actually is. You seem to be mixing it up with someone who works in the technology industry. quote:A technocrat is a supporter of a system of governance where decision-makers are selected on the basis of their expertise in their areas of responsibility, particularly scientific knowledge. This system explicitly contrasts with the notion that elected representatives should be the primary decision-makers in government, though it does not necessarily imply eliminating elected representatives. Leadership skills for decision-makers are selected on the basis of specialized knowledge and performance, rather than political affiliations or parliamentary skills
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 16:10
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Randian CEO has very nearly finished cannibalizing the corpse of a retail giant and is about to move on to the next host. Buckwheat Sings posted:Yes too all except he isnt losing shitloads of money due probably some big payoff on his exit. Just a bit less than if he were actuslly running a successful company. As is standard for all CEOs nowadays. Nope. Generally, the cannibal at least gets some kind of nutrition from eating. This guy just flushed an enormous amount of his own money down the drain. He and his firm went from being worth ~$10 billion to being worth ~$1.2 billion. That's almost 90% of his net worth gone from this one investment.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 16:14
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:
My biggest takeaway from this conversation is that half of the posters here have never done or even watched any construction or blue collar work.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 16:17
|
|
|
Stretch Marx posted:people who think they're Spider-man can keep doing what they're doing. Saw a guy drive a Hi-Lift with the boom extended over a speed bump once. Luckily for everyone ten minutes prior he had lost an argument about whether he needed to have his safety harness on so he just smashed himself into the railing instead of being launched into loving orbit. People are insanely dumb.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 16:19
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:
Even worse, he has a safety harness, now people can lament his boss requires him to be tied up and roped to company equiptment like some sort of beast.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 16:23
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Was going to say, you're going to see a lot of harsh takes on technocrats for the next few years because it has been becoming clear how limited and unrealistic the idea that technology, and specifically the logic of programming, can be used to solve societal problems all by itself is. Especially in the form of 'disrupting' industries, which is generally a feel-good label put over 'ignoring the reasons regulation exists and flouting it to make money at the cost of everyone doing things the right way'. I wrote a thing for the trade thread, but I'm cross posting it here because it's relevant. It's going to take me a bit. Not sure when the next time I'll not be phone posting will be. Discendo Vox made some corrections for me but here's the original post. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3862896&pagenumber=13&perpage=40#post488415260 Liquid Communism posted:Few people fear working less. Everyone fears being made redundant by automation when the American social safety net is effectively a blindfold and a cigarette before the firing squad. Automation is also connected. But that may take me a while to write.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 16:28
|
|
|
Xae posted:My biggest takeaway from this conversation is that half of the posters here have never done or even watched any construction or blue collar work. The only conclusion I can draw is it's just a stupid, disingenuous derail to avoid discussing anything of substance Or to be right about something. Like the validity of safety equipment is somehow being debated here? No you see, in a post-truth era discussion is limited to what you're right about, however irrelevant, and completely ignores the core issues presented. How can anyone unionize in an Amazon factory when they're too consumed by the motivation to prove how good and swell it is to be right about something for once in their lives? This tiny victory, they can draw on as the buzzer chastises them for not gathering items fast enough... again... for the thousandth time.... a reminder of how lovely they are. But at least they were right about the cages in the non-existent argument. Even a SVP at Amazon suggests it to be a bad idea (twitter embed): https://twitter.com/davehclark/status/1038231128644050944 How does anything get discussed here when posters just reduce the scope of 'discussion' to jerking themselves to climax over these stupid, irrelevant 'gotcha' moments?
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 17:11
|
|
|
im depressed lol posted:How does anything get discussed here when posters just reduce the scope of 'discussion' to jerking themselves to climax over these stupid, irrelevant 'gotcha' moments? The Retail Collapse of 2018: Jerking Off in a Cage
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 19:31
|
|
|
im depressed lol posted:How does anything get discussed here when posters just reduce the scope of 'discussion' to jerking themselves to climax over these stupid, irrelevant 'gotcha' moments? Did you see the discussion about quality of life a few pages back? I just give up because people will say anything online as they are protected from being punched in the head for being twats. If I can make an effort and be rewarded with idiocy or walk away clean and not be surrounded by clowns to the left of me and jokers to the right, I know which one I am picking every time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 19:37
|
|
|
So what happens if the transmitter on the safety vest breaks
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 21:00
|
|
|
Unoriginal Name posted:So what happens if the transmitter on the safety vest breaks Or what if there's only a 1% chance of something going seriously wrong and people/robots need to work in the same area at the same time frequently? Having all the robots shut down is possible, but it would massively reduce productivity. Yet a 1% chance of serious injury is far too much. A protective cage is a far better solution in that situation. The safety vest transmitter idea also relies on the notion that all the machines are in a position where it is safe and possible to stop at any given time.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 21:03
|
|
|
I do believe that the normal warehouses already operate with too small regard for worker safety and this is down to employers not wanting to pay for proper safety. No matter what country or even how good they may choose to pay the worker. The "cage" protection should be employed strenuously in warehouse and management upset about it slightly slow down moving goods or reduce capacity can dry tear with banknotes. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That's not what a technocrat actually is. Another note, of the technocracy movement they sought to abolish all private property and ensure entire populations held collective return from any profit and efficiency of the economy. Their goals for dividing up wealth would be such that in modern monies it would be as if every worker from lowest clerk to company president would earn half million dollars a year, not clerk earning ten thousand and company president earning ten billion. They also sought to radically shrink workweek for the realization that there was already not enough jobs. In Technocracy papers it was proposed that workers should be on 4 hour shifts for 4 days a week whenever possible. And workers doing things that cannot be handled in a 4 hour time period should receive more days off work to compensate and so on. After all do we really need of every adult working 40 hour week, 30 hour week just because? No. In a many many ways, the result is an opposite of a Jeff Bezos.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2018 21:57
|
|
|
im depressed lol posted:
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2018 01:20
|
|
|
Its really, really common to just pattent everything these days even if you won't ever use it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2018 01:20
|
|
|
Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That's not what a technocrat actually is. Nah, I'm specifically referring to the people in the tech industry with sufficient power (read money) that they want to implement their methods in the public policy sphere. Hence technocrat. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Nope. He's really bad at this. Again, Randian. Still going to keep trying to implement his broken philosophy though, because his pockets are deep enough and the sunk costs fallacy is strong.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2018 01:26
|
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Nah, I'm specifically referring to the people in the tech industry with sufficient power (read money) that they want to implement their methods in the public policy sphere. Hence technocrat. I appreciate the neologism, but it's really courting confusion. Why not use the accepted term, STEMlord?
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2018 02:03
|
|
|
Unoriginal Name posted:So what happens if the transmitter on the safety vest breaks As someone who is very much against the robots ruling us all and caging humans, I'm for the protective cage around myself while interacting with robots. I've worked in horribly dangerous auto packaging warehouses before. I have gone and pulled the breakers from the panel to keep some dipshit floor manager from trying to turn on machines that have a legit kill count on them. Whats to stop some STEMlord jackass from turning down the safeties on the auto trackers till someone gets killed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2018 02:39
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:I appreciate the neologism, but it's really courting confusion. Why not use the accepted term, STEMlord? Because I was trying to avoid the sheer venom I have for them, honestly. The level of hubris in techbro circles is insane. BlueBlazer posted:As someone who is very much against the robots ruling us all and caging humans, I'm for the protective cage around myself while interacting with robots. Lockout tagout is no loving joke. Industrial work's gotten safe enough thanks to decades of code enforcement that people forget just how common it used to be for workers to get straight up mangled, and owners to bitch about having to shut down production to get the body parts off the machine.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2018 02:41
|
|
|
And despite lock out, tag out you still have dipshits trying to run the machine anyway. The machine is turned off. The key that turns the machine back on is out of the machine and it is locked. The breaker is off, there's a lock on the breaker, and a big tag that says THIS MACHINE IS NOT WORKING RIGHT NOW IT IS BROKEN AND MIGHT EXPLODE OR SOMETHING AND MAKE YOU DIE IN A VERY PAINFUL WAY IF YOU SO MUCH AS LOOK AT IT WRONG WHEN THE POWER IS ON HOW loving STUPID ARE YOU? Turning the thing on takes like six steps and you'll still have somebody pressing the operate button and bitching that it won't do anything. It's out of order you gently caress nugget. Of course one of the issues is management refusing to budget enough for repairing or replacing machines so you have to make do with lovely, damaged stuff that breaks constantly. Meanwhile they also expect things to be working as if everything was a perfectly functional, brand new machine right off of the assembly line. Can't replace Ol' Cranky, that would reduce shareholder value! ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Oct 2, 2018 |
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2018 02:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 09:21 |
|
|
Liquid Communism posted:Because I was trying to avoid the sheer venom I have for them, honestly. The level of hubris in techbro circles is insane. You do see how is it rude to conflate last century's enemies of capitalism who sought to use automation to reduce oppression of all, with modern king of capitalism who seek to use automation to have maximum oppression of workers though, yes? Call the modern one technobaron or some thing such. BlueBlazer posted:As someone who is very much against the robots ruling us all and caging humans, I'm for the protective cage around myself while interacting with robots. Same, and even just to protect me from half the forklift driver i dealt with in college job at warehouse!
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2018 02:56
|
|