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I didn't like XIII's rating system for fights either because it actively punishes slow careful play.
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Oct 3, 2018 04:39
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Slow, careful play is antithetical to the Stagger system and leads to hour-long Barthandelus fights that have to be mercy killed (and then people complain about Doom). Having some incentive to actually learn the system instead of turtling up is a good thing.
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Oct 3, 2018 04:46
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ApplesandOranges posted:I didn't like XIII's rating system for fights either because it actively punishes slow careful play. The issue with this (in a lot of games) is that slow and careful play is usually also extremely boring play and actively punishing it is one of the few ways to both include slower options without getting people to rely on them. It may sound dumb but people will actively refuse to use fun playstyles if there's a safe-and-effective style that is boring as poo poo and adding an incentive to use the faster playstyles is a must.
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Oct 3, 2018 04:56
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ApplesandOranges posted:I didn't like XIII's rating system for fights either because it actively punishes slow careful play. Well, no, it passively punishes you. And it doesn't even punish you, because lower ratings increase the drop rate for battle buff items like fortisols, which are very powerful.
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Oct 3, 2018 04:58
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I would pay money for "Dark Souls, but Final Fantasy"
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Oct 3, 2018 04:59
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Gologle posted:I would pay money for "Dark Souls, but Final Fantasy" googling fantasy souls gave me this. Make of it what you will. I'd play a hardcore food based action jrpg. lobster22221 fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Oct 3, 2018 |
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Oct 3, 2018 06:19
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AlphaKretin posted:It always seemed to me like Lightning Returns' NG+ was aiming for a Dead Rising sort of thing where you repeatedly fail and retry, but it doesn't work in practice because the game is too long, the start is too slow, and (thankfully, given the last two points) you're not forced to give NG+ a shot early because death in combat only costs an hour so the only fail state is getting to the end of the game which, like starting a new cycle, takes far too long. They didn't expect you to fail and retry, and I have trouble believing anyone has ever run out of time because of how many ways you can stretch that time out and how little you actually have to do to get the final boss
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Oct 3, 2018 07:15
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I mean the final design certainly isn't there, as I alluded to it would be completely unreasonable. But things like weapon reforging only existing in NG+ makes me think there might have been vague plans at some point.
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Oct 3, 2018 07:47
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ImpAtom posted:The issue with this (in a lot of games) is that slow and careful play is usually also extremely boring play and actively punishing it is one of the few ways to both include slower options without getting people to rely on them. It may sound dumb but people will actively refuse to use fun playstyles if there's a safe-and-effective style that is boring as poo poo and adding an incentive to use the faster playstyles is a must. let people play the "boring as poo poo" style if that's what they want imo
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Oct 3, 2018 07:59
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Lessail posted:let people play the "boring as poo poo" style if that's what they want imo They can, they just have to deal with some games encouraging them to not do that. If they can't deal with that, then I dunno what to say.
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Oct 3, 2018 08:16
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Lessail posted:let people play the "boring as poo poo" style if that's what they want imo if you want a boring as poo poo final fantasy there's always 12
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Oct 3, 2018 08:27
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Lessail posted:let people play the "boring as poo poo" style if that's what they want imo There's a lot of people who rate games poorly because they go for the boring as poo poo style and it turns out that it's boring as poo poo. So yeah, maybe nudge them towards your intended playstyle if your game's supposed to have one. I know my experience in games with rating systems tends to get improved when I actually go for the playstyle they encourage. If your game's not supposed to have one, that's an entirely different problem to solve.
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Oct 3, 2018 08:35
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It's been a while since I played xiii is bart the only boss that auto kills you if you take too long Cause I figure something like that will get people to rate games poorly too
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Oct 3, 2018 08:45
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all the summon fights have a death timer
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Oct 3, 2018 08:46
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ImpAtom posted:The issue with this (in a lot of games) is that slow and careful play is usually also extremely boring play and actively punishing it is one of the few ways to both include slower options without getting people to rely on them. It may sound dumb but people will actively refuse to use fun playstyles if there's a safe-and-effective style that is boring as poo poo and adding an incentive to use the faster playstyles is a must. When dying over and over again to Bart, my gamer instincts told me to turtle up, constantly heal and just take it slow. But then XIII slapped me in the face and said my instincts were wrong. I get that you have to adapt - it's like playing SMT and realizing that buffs and debuffs aren't just a luxury, they are a necessity. Not every RPG can be played exactly the same way. But it still felt so counterintuitive that what I needed when losing was more reckless abandon and offense.
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Oct 3, 2018 09:40
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ApplesandOranges posted:I didn't like XIII's rating system for fights either because it actively punishes slow careful play. This is why I like the combat in it lol
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Oct 3, 2018 09:50
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This seems pretty relevant to the topic at hand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L8vAGGitr8
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Oct 3, 2018 10:05
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Lessail posted:It's been a while since I played xiii is bart the only boss that auto kills you if you take too long There are a handful of other bosses who cast doom on you, but the non-eidolon fights are 20 minute timers (30 min for the superboss). There's "I like being slow and careful", then there's "I want to spend 70% of the fight I solidarity and not think", the latter of which is what the devs were targeting. The only fight that might take long enough to naturally worry about the timer is Attacus, one of the late post-game bosses, and only because he was more or less designed to take a while and force you to play slightly differently. Mega64 posted:This seems pretty relevant to the topic at hand. It's been a short while since I've seen this video but I didn't really agree with Mark Browns take here on how much things like timers could distract, and I felt like some of the positive examples didn't go far enough (hazy on this point). Also, funnily enough, 13 actually does several things (some mentioned in that video iirc) to encourage its ideal playstyle, both in positive and negative reinforcement.
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Oct 3, 2018 13:16
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A you fail the game, try again, timer hanging over an entire game is not a good mechanic. It wasnt good in old sierra adventure games and its extra bad the longer your game is to beat. It also doesnt matter that you can circumvent it because the game has introduced the possibility that the time youve spent is for naught, so even playing with a guide that thought can gnaw at you until youve beaten the game which is not a great feeling, not to mention the feel of stumbling around without a guide wondering if you are making progress fast enough. Short, one-off timers in games dont trigger the same response; you as a player know how long the task is to take, that the task when finished will remove the timer, failure doesnt reset all non-timer progress, and that you already have had typically time with the games mechanics to have a better grasp on the ask. Another way to view it is the reward structure isnt working for people. In games with style or time rankings, typically those provide nothing or a small bonus, giving a player an incentive to complete but not one so large or unique they feel bad for forgoing it (cough megaman X games). Timer games on the other hand have a negative reward structure; play to my minimum expectation of quickness or lose your entire time investment. Your only reward is more game and with the vast majority of games on the market not promising to toss your time investment because you arent measuring up to an unclear measure of good its somewhat an ohvious decision for most people to play another game.
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Oct 3, 2018 13:33
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Barudak posted:A you fail the game, try again, timer hanging over an entire game is not a good mechanic. It wasnt good in old sierra adventure games and its extra bad the longer your game is to beat. It also doesnt matter that you can circumvent it because the game has introduced the possibility that the time youve spent is for naught, so even playing with a guide that thought can gnaw at you until youve beaten the game which is not a great feeling, not to mention the feel of stumbling around without a guide wondering if you are making progress fast enough. Timers are actually awesome. Forcing you to consider your resources and action efficiency is cool. Atelier got much worse when they removed the timer for example And again, Lightning Returns has a timer you can pause at will
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Oct 3, 2018 14:46
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corn in the bible posted:Timers are actually awesome. Forcing you to consider your resources and action efficiency is cool. The time limits actively made both of those games worse for me Andrast fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Oct 3, 2018 |
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Oct 3, 2018 15:00
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Having to consider efficiency is fine. Being told 80 hours in "gently caress you start over" is not.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:08
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80 hours seems like a pretty generous time limit
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Oct 3, 2018 15:24
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FFXIII does very little to actually teach players how to play effectively. Just slapping death on the characters with no explanation just angers and confuses them. Doesn't exactly help you spend a lot of time with an incomplete party.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:26
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Dragonatrix posted:Having to consider efficiency is fine. Being told 80 hours in "gently caress you start over" is not. Hmm. Which game does this exactly?
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Oct 3, 2018 15:31
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I hope the next Final Fantasy is Xenoblade Chronicles but with gambits.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:50
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seiferguy posted:I hope the next Final Fantasy is Xenoblade Chronicles but with gambits. Ok, what if hot pants on the lead female character?
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Oct 3, 2018 15:52
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seiferguy posted:I hope the next Final Fantasy is Xenoblade Chronicles but with gambits. Those things suck so I hope not
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Oct 3, 2018 15:58
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The next FF should just be them saying gently caress it to the whole “spend 7 years developing a shaky engine for one gaming generation, oops we forgot to actually make a game” strategy. Just build it in Unreal, don’t spend weeks on end rendering rocks, and focus on making a good story with fun mechanics.
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Oct 3, 2018 15:59
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Andrast posted:actively is this word the new "literally"
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Oct 3, 2018 16:04
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HD DAD posted:The next FF should just be them saying gently caress it to the whole “spend 7 years developing a shaky engine for one gaming generation, oops we forgot to actually make a game” strategy. Just build it in Unreal, don’t spend weeks on end rendering rocks, and focus on making a good story with fun mechanics. FF7 is unreal 4, the engine part is not why their production is slow
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Oct 3, 2018 16:08
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I didn't like the time limit in LR at first either, but instead of just saying "this sucks I hate it" and giving up, I used the tools that were available to me to overcome the challenge. That includes the actual in-game tools like stopping time, and also multiple save files. I kept multiple save files and if I felt like I wasted too much time on something, I just reloaded and did it faster. I ended up finishing all the main story quests and most of the side quests long before the end of the 13th day. It's seriously not a big deal.
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Oct 3, 2018 16:10
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Renoistic posted:FFXIII does very little to actually teach players how to play effectively. Just slapping death on the characters with no explanation just angers and confuses them. FFXIII buries you in tutorial boxes, gives you AI companions who once they're done fishing for weaknesses will do everything in their control to carry a fight properly, slow-rolls you abilities to give you time to learn how each new one changes your playstyle, showers you in powerful consumables if you're struggling, regularly throws normal enemies that force you to engage with the game's systems without destroying you utterly for it (as well as the Eidolon battles which do the same but DO destroy you for it, so meh) and gives you a rating system that basically all but tells you 'Gotta Go Fast.' About the only thing they can DO to help the player that they don't (besides making the weapon upgrading system less obtuse) is just refuse any attempts to set a Rav or Com/Sen/Med paradigm once they get a full party, and that's only because that seems to be the token paradigm of bads who don't want to actually try to use the paradigm system and coast through the game until Bart feeds them a hot steaming pile of nope. FFXIII has a lot of problem, but players not learning how to play it effectively... that one's not on them. Barudak posted:Ok, what if hot pants on the lead female character? So, Ashe?
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Oct 3, 2018 16:12
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Tae posted:FF7 is unreal 4, the engine part is not why their production is slow I think they mean more xiii and xiii versus and xv
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Oct 3, 2018 16:12
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Fister Roboto posted:I didn't like the time limit in LR at first either, but instead of just saying "this sucks I hate it" and giving up, I used the tools that were available to me to overcome the challenge. That includes the actual in-game tools like stopping time, and also multiple save files. I kept multiple save files and if I felt like I wasted too much time on something, I just reloaded and did it faster. I ended up finishing all the main story quests and most of the side quests long before the end of the 13th day. It's seriously not a big deal. I played through LR. The time limit still sucked and made the game worse for me.
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Oct 3, 2018 16:14
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seiferguy posted:I hope the next Final Fantasy is Xenoblade Chronicles but with gambits. I would be legit hyped for Final Fantasy XII-2
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Oct 3, 2018 16:15
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Aithon posted:I would be legit hyped for Final Fantasy XII-2 Literally already is a ff12 sequel
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Oct 3, 2018 16:15
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Tae posted:Literally already is a ff12 sequel It doesn't have jobs or a cool battle system though
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Oct 3, 2018 16:16
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Andrast posted:It doesn't have jobs or a cool battle system though So it was a proper FFXII sequel then?
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Oct 3, 2018 16:17
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Mr. Locke posted:So it was a proper FFXII sequel then? pretty much
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Oct 3, 2018 16:21
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