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I can't believe you're still on this without any actual evidence that any of this stuff is happening besides "people bring it up"
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Oct 3, 2018 22:37
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It's an incredibly tiresome hill to die on.
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Oct 3, 2018 22:40
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Forum threads that did not age well
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Oct 3, 2018 22:42
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the_steve posted:I feel like the whole "How soon is too soon?" Topic would make for an interesting D&D thread. i do feel like the thread veered into a d&d topic here, like, there's no actual disagreement over whether or not some of these things have aged poorly - we can probably all agree they've aged very poorly tbh - there's just disagreement over the appropriate consequences if someone's interested in continuing that discussion maybe it's better to make that thread in d&d but for this thread it's kind of a derail
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Oct 3, 2018 22:43
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I think it's been long enough that we can finally bring back Michael Richard's hit tv show where he's a detective or some poo poo I don't even remember I think it lasted for all of 5 episodes. Even my parents didn't watch it and they watched the entire runs of Two and Half Men and Big Bang Theory.
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Oct 3, 2018 22:50
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I mean it’s a little weird that Mark Wahlberg gets to have a career and Richards doesn’t.
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Oct 3, 2018 23:00
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fruit on the bottom posted:I mean it’s a little weird that Mark Wahlberg gets to have a career and Richards doesn’t. Yeah, Mark Wahlberg is a real piece of poo poo
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Oct 3, 2018 23:02
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fruit on the bottom posted:I mean it’s a little weird that Mark Wahlberg gets to have a career and Richards doesn’t. I mean one is in his prime and the other hasn’t been relevant since like 10 years before his tirade so it shouldn’t be to surprising
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Oct 3, 2018 23:03
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fruit on the bottom posted:I mean it’s a little weird that Mark Wahlberg gets to have a career and Richards doesn’t. It's more socially acceptable to hate Asians than it is to hate Black people. Not that some enterprising individuals aren't trying to hate both! Double major!!!
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Oct 3, 2018 23:43
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He was also a teenager and did prison time for it
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Oct 4, 2018 00:03
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Henchman of Santa posted:He was also a teenager and did prison time for it Only like 45 days though. He got off pretty light.
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Oct 4, 2018 00:05
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Only like 45 days though. He got off pretty light. True, but also committing a hate crime is a Bostonian rite of passage into manhood
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Oct 4, 2018 00:07
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Yeah and he only tried to get it taken off his record because being a convicted felon was interfering with his charity work. I don't have a problem separating the artist from the artwork as long as the art itself doesn't factor in to the terrible things they did. Like Mark walhberg did some lovely things as a teenage gang member but his music career was specifically him trying to escape from that life. On the other hand you have people like Woody Allen dating an underage girl he cast in a film he made about a different underage girl he dated.
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Oct 4, 2018 01:32
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the natural progression of this derail is Wahlberg -> Allen -> Goebbels
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Oct 4, 2018 01:38
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fruit on the bottom posted:I mean it’s a little weird that Mark Wahlberg gets to have a career and Richards doesn’t. Mark Wahlberg is "good looking"
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Oct 4, 2018 01:54
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hawowanlawow posted:the natural progression of this derail is Wahlberg -> Allen -> Goebbels I mean it’s a little weird that Goebbels got to have a successful career
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Oct 4, 2018 02:08
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fruit on the bottom posted:I mean it’s a little weird that Goebbels got to have a successful career I agree. Goebbels should have recieved the most severe punishment possible: the end of his career in stand-up comedy.
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Oct 4, 2018 02:12
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Eichmann got to be on international tv
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Oct 4, 2018 02:40
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Ariong posted:I agree. Goebbels should have recieved the most severe punishment possible: the end of his career in stand-up comedy. "And now, ladies and gentlemen, your Reich Minister of Prop-a-COMEDY! Put your hands together for Joey Goebbels!"
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Oct 4, 2018 03:32
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Solice Kirsk posted:"And now, ladies and gentlemen, your Reich Minister of Prop-a-COMEDY! Put your hands together for Joey Goebbels!" Goebbels in… “Two Lebensraums Don’t Make A Reich”
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Oct 4, 2018 03:40
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rodbeard posted:Yeah and he only tried to get it taken off his record because being a convicted felon was interfering with his charity work. I thought it was interfering with his ability to expand his burger chain into areas where convicted felons can't have liquor licenses.
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Oct 4, 2018 03:41
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ToxicSlurpee posted:If he's completely tossed out of not racist society forever all that's left is racists. Doesn't guarantee it but if you lock somebody in that box and don't let them out it gets harder to convince them to not be a racist.
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Oct 4, 2018 03:42
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Samuringa posted:I doubt even Seinfeld fans know his real name without googling it. It's Cosmo.
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Oct 4, 2018 04:24
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Zero_Grade posted:I've heard a number of criticisms about Futurama, but 'bland and forgettable' is a new one. He was probably thinking of Disenchantment.
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Oct 4, 2018 07:47
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I agree with you. What grates on my nerves is I've met a hell of a lot of people who give no opportunity to earn forgiveness. Nothing ever seems to be good enough. In this case I can't help but wondering where that line is or what would have to be done to convince people he isn't going to do that again. What should he do?
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Oct 4, 2018 08:00
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fruit BOO!ts posted:I mean it’s a little weird that Goebbels got to have a successful career Whatever happened to the guy who killed Goebbels? Would've thought he'd have gone onto bigger things. Edit: In fairness, it can be hard to top yourself after that. Wheat Loaf has a new favorite as of 09:17 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 09:12
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Tiggum posted:This is starting to seem like it's a bit personal for you. Whatever you did, no one owes you forgiveness. There is nothing you can do that will make people give you a second chance, and there never will be. People are allowed to dislike you.
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Oct 4, 2018 09:24
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Tiggum posted:This is starting to seem like it's a bit personal for you. Whatever you did, no one owes you forgiveness. There is nothing you can do that will make people give you a second chance, and there never will be. People are allowed to dislike you. If it's anything it's all the time I spent dealing with narcissists. I read that narcissism is becoming so common that there are psychologists arguing that it shouldn't be considered a disorder anymore. This attitude of "absolutely never forgive anything ever" is something abusers do and I've been seeing that pattern increasing in society. The rise of social media has seriously amplified it. American society has been going increasingly insane overall. My therapist keeps reminding me that I am wracked with guilt not because of things I did but because of things that were done to me. Maybe that factors, maybe it doesn't, but I've dealt with entirely too much "I'm going to use this against you for the rest of your existence. This makes you lesser than me" in my life. I'd rather not talk about the details of what was done to me so don't ask. Forgiveness sticks out in my mind as there is a lot of poo poo I need to let go of for the sake of my own mental health. It seems to me that American society has gotten far too quick to hate and far too slow to forgive. It's like that saying goes; "clinging to anger is like taking poison and hoping somebody else will die." Of course I also feel like I have to appease people who don't like me so that's something I also have to fix. Yes, I'm a hideous mess trying to sort out serious issues, yes I'm in therapy, and yes I did  from the lovely people.
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Oct 4, 2018 09:45
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Yes, you should stop posting
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Oct 4, 2018 10:15
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ToxicSlurpee posted:If it's anything it's all the time I spent dealing with narcissists. I read that narcissism is becoming so common that there are psychologists arguing that it shouldn't be considered a disorder anymore. This attitude of "absolutely never forgive anything ever" is something abusers do and I've been seeing that pattern increasing in society. The rise of social media has seriously amplified it. American society has been going increasingly insane overall. Tiggum posted:This is starting to seem like it's a bit personal for you. Whatever you did, no one owes you forgiveness. There is nothing you can do that will make people give you a second chance, and there never will be. People are allowed to dislike you. loving bullseye
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Oct 4, 2018 10:29
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Forgiveness sticks out in my mind as there is a lot of poo poo I need to let go of for the sake of my own mental health. It seems to me that American society has gotten far too quick to hate and far too slow to forgive. In a world where people will still go to bat for Roman Polanski because he happened to make some good movies once upon a time, this is an incredible load of horseshit. The very idea that the problem with the world is that people aren't forgiving enough for lovely behavior despite copious amounts of evidence to the contrary is a real head-in-the-sand take, and if people do seem less willing to forgive things like that these days it's because endemic unrepentance, non-apologies, and consequences which largely amount to a slap on the wrist have convinced them that the sort of person to start shouting racist slurs in public isn't going to have a sudden moment of satori and realize what a dickhead they've been. Here's what Kramer had to say in response to his public on-stage meltdown by way of an apology: quote:"For me to be at a comedy club and to flip out and say this crap, I'm deeply, deeply sorry. I'm not a racist, that's what's so insane about this." You see that bolded part? That's why maybe people don't think that the Kramer guy is someone who's been done wrong by a callous and uncaring society, because his public statement of apology is laughably insincere. "I'm totally not a racist, that's what's so insane about this, anybody could repeatedly shout racial slurs at a crowd while on stage and talk about lynching black people, who hasn't done that on occasion?" Nobody with half a brain actually buys that line, so why should they believe him when he says he's sorry in the same breath? Has this guy actually done anything to try and actually earn forgiveness or is this whole tangential argument predicated on some sort of what-if scenario?
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Oct 4, 2018 11:10
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Is there a difference between forgiving and not caring, or forgiving and not considering something a transgression in the first place? America seems like a place that doesn’t really care about rape or threatening to lynch a kid, despite some people occasionally losing work because of those things once those people fall below a certain threshold of profitability. And I’m sure we’re going to hear a lot more Polanski-level stories once the boomer generation of movie stars starts dropping dead and people feel freer to talk. Remember that Cory Feldman said that the only people in Hollywood he would trust to be alone with him were Michael Jackson and Steven Spielberg, and that was the late 80s. I’m sure the 70s were much worse.
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Oct 4, 2018 11:28
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Kai Tave posted:You see that bolded part? That's why maybe people don't think that the Kramer guy is someone who's been done wrong by a callous and uncaring society, because his public statement of apology is laughably insincere. "I'm totally not a racist, that's what's so insane about this, anybody could repeatedly shout racial slurs at a crowd while on stage and talk about lynching black people, who hasn't done that on occasion?" Nobody with half a brain actually buys that line, so why should they believe him when he says he's sorry in the same breath? Has this guy actually done anything to try and actually earn forgiveness or is this whole tangential argument predicated on some sort of what-if scenario? It read to me like somebody trying to sort out what the gently caress happened in his head that led to that moment. That's why my question is has he fixed his behavior. This isn't a case where I've heard anything else at all about him being racist from before or after. That's why I'm asking if there's anything else on that rap sheet. If he has, in fact, fixed his behavior and not done anything racist since then my thought is that 12 years is long enough. Far as I can tell he realized he hosed up, apologized, and hasn't done it again. I don't expect everybody to agree with me but that's my thought on the matter Of course my cynical side is seeing a lot of "well that's exactly what a racist would say! Can't trust racists, can you?" We can't know for sure what went on in his head but it seemed to me like the whole thing just came screaming out of the blue. He played a wacky neighbor on TV and you never heard much about the actor behind that character good or bad then suddenly he launches into that tirade? Just...what happened? I'm also asking what he has to do to earn forgiveness as it's kind of an important question. What do you expect from him? If not doing it again for over a decade isn't enough then what is? I mean if somebody can come up with something else sure I'll read it but that's literally the only thing I've seen. If you believe that he's tainted forever and you will never forgive him no matter what he does to atone for his actions then at least admit it. business hammocks posted:And I’m sure we’re going to hear a lot more Polanski-level stories once the boomer generation of movie stars starts dropping dead and people feel freer to talk. Remember that Cory Feldman said that the only people in Hollywood he would trust to be alone with him were Michael Jackson and Steven Spielberg, and that was the late 80s. I’m sure the 70s were much worse. I expect a lot more to come out as it's a lot harder to hide. I feel like in the past there was just kind of this assumption that powerful men just kind of, you know, do that and what can you do, you know? I'm legitimately surprised that Cosby actually went to jail. At this point I think Weinstein might actually end up behind bars too. The Catholic Church scandal isn't going away and the social view is shifting to "no, actually, it isn't OK to abuse you power to get away with rape." ToxicSlurpee has a new favorite as of 11:40 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 11:35
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ToxicSlurpee posted:We can't know for sure what went on in his head but it seemed to me like the whole thing just came screaming out of the blue. He played a wacky neighbor on TV and you never heard much about the actor behind that character good or bad then suddenly he launches into that tirade? Just...what happened? ToxicSlurpee posted:I'm also asking what he has to do to earn forgiveness as it's kind of an important question. What do you expect from him? Why does it matter so much to you that he be "forgiven"? Why should he get to be a celebrity? To turn the question back on you, what do you think he's done to earn his place in the spotlight back?
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Oct 4, 2018 11:51
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ToxicSlurpee posted:It read to me like somebody trying to sort out what the gently caress happened in his head that led to that moment. That's why my question is has he fixed his behavior. This isn't a case where I've heard anything else at all about him being racist from before or after. That's why I'm asking if there's anything else on that rap sheet. If he has, in fact, fixed his behavior and not done anything racist since then my thought is that 12 years is long enough. Far as I can tell he realized he hosed up, apologized, and hasn't done it again. I don't expect everybody to agree with me but that's my thought on the matter Things like that don't just spontaneously pop out of somebody like they're possessed by the wandering devil of sudden and inexplicable racism, my dude. I've been extremely pissed off about things before in my life, and you know what I never did, not once, not even in my most "flying off the handle at inconsequential poo poo" moments? Go on a racial-slur fueled tirade. No matter how mad I got at anybody, for any reason, I never found myself gripped with the all-consuming urge to shout slurs in public. So I can in fact make an educated guess as to what went on in his head thanks to the human power of inference which is that the Kramer guy, when he got angry enough, was comfortable turning to the n-word and talk of lynching instead of just, I dunno, calling the guy a dumb loving rear end in a top hat or something. What that tells me is that yeah, there's probably more where that came from even if I haven't been tuned into the 24/7 Kramer-Kam to catch it in the act. I'm sorry that people won't give someone who repeatedly shouts slurs on stage the benefit of the doubt anymore in this harsh and unforgiving age.
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Oct 4, 2018 11:56
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I mostly remember hearing about that from Dave Chappelle, in the bit where he realises he's about 30% black and 70% comedian. He should have stuck to his epic quest for hentai.
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Oct 4, 2018 12:01
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business hammocks posted:And I’m sure we’re going to hear a lot more Polanski-level stories once the boomer generation of movie stars starts dropping dead and people feel freer to talk. Remember that Cory Feldman said that the only people in Hollywood he would trust to be alone with him were Michael Jackson and Steven Spielberg, and that was the late 80s. I’m sure the 70s were much worse. There's plenty of New Hollywood era stars who I'm sort of surprised haven't had anything come out against them, but at the same time, I'm not sure how much of that is me casting potentially unfair aspersions on their characters. For example, Warren Beatty is an infamous womaniser and it's not really that you'd expect allegations to be made against him (because one probably shouldn't baldly assume that someone who's a massive horndog must necessarily be a sexual predator), but you probably wouldn't be surprised if they were. I remember that big tell-all document from about 2004 that gets linked sometimes insinuated that Jack Nicholson was into some messed up poo poo. I think Dustin Hoffman's the only big name actor from that era I can think of who's had accusations definitively made, but I suppose he just doesn't work regularly enough these days (I want to say he's semi-retired?) that he's just not in the public eye as much.
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Oct 4, 2018 12:18
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Kramer was a racist in denial—he hated black people while never realizing that he hated black people. He could have repaired his reputation by understanding that and talking about white supremacy to white people and maybe raising some money for blm or something. But just like most fragile white people, he chose to dismiss the testimony of his own experience when it contradicted his image of himself and ignored what happened. He could confront reality and make better choices, but until he does he’s part of the problem. It’s very common for white people to see eruptions of vitriolic hatred like that as passing moments of insanity because they don’t think of themselves as capable of holding those sorts of attitudes, but that’s a symptom of thinking that racism is some kind of cartoonish personal choice, which people ultimately adopt in spite of its stupidity because it allows them to deny reality. It’s a big part of why so many cops get away with murdering black people for no reason, and why systemic issues generally become invisible to white people. More white people should talk about that, and maybe a white comedian could manage to confront other white people in a successful way. Kramer’s lazy rear end doesn’t need help generating excuses.
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Oct 4, 2018 12:18
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I'm legitimately surprised that Cosby actually went to jail. At this point I think Weinstein might actually end up behind bars too. The Catholic Church scandal isn't going away and the social view is shifting to "no, actually, it isn't OK to abuse you power to get away with rape." I'm surprised they didn't see it coming. Cosby is old I guess and figured he had a pretty good chance of beating the charges just because of his age, but why the gently caress is Weinstein still in a country that extradites to the US? His passport is probably seized now, but I'm amazed he didn't pull a Polanski, because he's not going to do well in prison.
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Oct 4, 2018 12:45
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Tiggum posted:Why does it matter so much to you that he be "forgiven"? Why should he get to be a celebrity? To turn the question back on you, what do you think he's done to earn his place in the spotlight back? It isn't him, specifically, that I'm thinking about he's just the topic of the conversation. If he did that once then fixed his ways and never did again then that's good enough for me. As for getting the spotlight back if people still want to watch him then why shouldn't they? The thing that gets me is people telling other people they aren't allowed to enjoy somebody ever again for something like that. If he's washed up and not as funny as he used to be and can't draw a crowd then, well, them's the breaks. business hammocks posted:Kramer was a racist in denial—he hated black people while never realizing that he hated black people. He could have repaired his reputation by understanding that and talking about white supremacy to white people and maybe raising some money for blm or something. Now this makes more sense. Granted if he was a racist deep down, didn't realize it, then did that and went "gently caress I'm a racist, better fix that," and never did anything racist again then I'm still going to say 12 years of at least not doing anything else is enough. It would be great if he did more but personally I'm willing to drop it at this point. Krispy Wafer posted:I'm surprised they didn't see it coming. Cosby is old I guess and figured he had a pretty good chance of beating the charges just because of his age, but why the gently caress is Weinstein still in a country that extradites to the US? His passport is probably seized now, but I'm amazed he didn't pull a Polanski, because he's not going to do well in prison. I'm horribly cynical so I figured Cosby would get himself some very expensive lawyers that would prevent a retrial from happening. Then the retrial happened. Then he got ten years. Of course he's going to appeal it but at this point I doubt much that it'll get overturned. Maybe he'll get let out on house arrest or something because he's just freaking old but, fact is, he got convicted. Even if it does get overturned on some bullshit technicality I really don't think there's any coming back from it. Dude's guilty as gently caress. Polanski managed to do that because he's a citizen of...three countries? Four? I don't think Weinstein has that. If memory serves Polanski didn't run to avoid the whole thing; he ran because the judge decided he wasn't going to keep his side of a plea deal. That particular situation is a mess and that is lovely behavior on the end of the judge. I don't think Polanski was going to even take it to trial and was going to accept whatever the bargain was. I forget the details of it. Weinstein I expect to fight it tooth and nail to the bitter end. Of course other things in the news not relating to celebrities is I guess even countries that don't have extradition treaties are being very cooperative with American law enforcement. I guess the guy that made the 3D printable guns is being accused of abusing a minor and was in Taiwan. He skipped his flight and stayed. I guess there's no extradition treaty but Taiwan was like "nah, gently caress this guy" and sent him back anyway. ToxicSlurpee has a new favorite as of 13:15 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 13:11
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