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HIJK posted:dude, I don’t know or care about studio interference and even if I did I don’t think giving directors free reign on tv or movies will necessarily equal quality. I mean, you realize that you basically admit that my post was too long for you to read, and then proceeded to make a bunch of points that the post you didn't read almost entirely agrees with right? I get that not everyone has the time or energy to participate in some big discussion about comic book stuff, but I am not really sure what the point of insinuating that you can't be bothered to read a post because its too long but have an opinion about it anyway is, especially if you are just going to retype what I wrote. And also you keep insisting I am making some kind of argument that I am not making, unless referring to things as "tired", "a flaw", and "a fault" is a form a praise in 2018. Mr Hootington posted:We might get full batman for the final season. Depends on if they have the same character blackout on batman as they do on joker. It is impossible to know. I saw rumor mongering that alleged Batman might show up in the CW stuff. I would hope a Batman origin series would be allowed to have Batman in it at some point. But then... Smallville did happen so who knows? ToastyPotato fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Oct 4, 2018 |
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Oct 4, 2018 22:33
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the comic isn’t as edgy tryhard bullshit as this comes off, is it? https://twitter.com/daviduzumeri/status/1047911460955938816?s=21
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Oct 4, 2018 22:54
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They loving astreskd out the a in "balls" loving lol. Also what's the point of printing "f**k" instead of "gently caress"? it's incredibly obvious what the word is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4Zd-jIFioA
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Oct 4, 2018 23:00
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SonicRulez posted:That's worse. Just have Batman then. Bruce on Gotham is like 16 years old.
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Oct 4, 2018 23:04
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The problem with all this edgy crap coming out lately is that it feels less like these people are actually any good at being edgy and more like they just really suck at being earnest.
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Oct 4, 2018 23:11
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I think the problem with "edgy" is that there is no mature way to be "edgy" on purpose. It always comes off like repressed teen angst. I always thought the point of edginess was that there were things like censorship rules in place and people had to come up with ways to sneak poo poo in without getting in trouble. So to be edgy was to come as close as possible to being censored without it happening, or to get away with things that probably wouldn't have been allowed if they understood what you were doing. Basically pushing boundaries. Less "oh man we are so edgy" and more "what can we get away with?" Somehow that has transformed into "swear words, violence, and sex, but to the degree you are allowed to anyway, but maybe with characters you might not expect. Or any characters. Just curse a lot and have boobs and blood."
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Oct 4, 2018 23:27
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Barry Convex posted:the comic isn’t as edgy tryhard bullshit as this comes off, is it? Nah, it's way more.
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Oct 4, 2018 23:29
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ToastyPotato posted:It is impossible to know. I saw rumor mongering that alleged Batman might show up in the CW stuff. I would hope a Batman origin series would be allowed to have Batman in it at some point. But then... Smallville did happen so who knows? David wants to be batman.
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Oct 4, 2018 23:43
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Barry Convex posted:the comic isn’t as edgy tryhard bullshit as this comes off, is it? The same guy who made that tweet then turns around to call Garth Ennis a genius and a master, unironically I presume, but that poster is basically 100% on-brand for The Boys except for bleeping out all the swears. It's a staggeringly lovely comic.
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Oct 5, 2018 00:02
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Mr Hootington posted:Tom didn't want to be superman. also iirc there was rights issues between the tv show and the superman movies (or movie, really. i think the brandon routh suit is even the one tom wears in the end lol), where the show could use clark etc but could not use the suit or something, which is why it only showed up in the finale? but that could be old internet rumours tbf
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Oct 5, 2018 00:11
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What was considered edgy before the 80’s? That feels like when it really started with the prominence of TDK and Watchmen. But maybe that’s just because it was the decade in which I was born so don’t have much reference before that.
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Oct 5, 2018 00:11
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sticksy posted:What was considered edgy before the 80’s? That feels like when it really started with the prominence of TDK and Watchmen. But maybe that’s just because it was the decade in which I was born so don’t have much reference before that. In comic books or just in general? I don't know about "in general" but for comics I suppose it would still have been stuff like the Green Arrow/Green Lantern "Hard-Travelling Heroes" stories.
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Oct 5, 2018 00:22
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sticksy posted:What was considered edgy before the 80’s? That feels like when it really started with the prominence of TDK and Watchmen. But maybe that’s just because it was the decade in which I was born so don’t have much reference before that. Italian Mob movies?
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Oct 5, 2018 00:26
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ToastyPotato posted:I mean, you realize that you basically admit that my post was too long for you to read, and then proceeded to make a bunch of points that the post you didn't read almost entirely agrees with right? I get that not everyone has the time or energy to participate in some big discussion about comic book stuff, but I am not really sure what the point of insinuating that you can't be bothered to read a post because its too long but have an opinion about it anyway is, especially if you are just going to retype what I wrote. And also you keep insisting I am making some kind of argument that I am not making, unless referring to things as "tired", "a flaw", and "a fault" is a form a praise in 2018. I don’t have an opinion about your takes regarding BvS, my only point of interest has ever been about your original assertion that the Marvel formula is creative by being a formula: ToastyPotato posted:As absurdly formulaic as Ant-Man, Dr. Strange, and Black Panther are, I would say they are significantly more creative and generally solid films than BvS or JL. I don’t believe that Marvel movies are inherently “more creative” just because they’re so similar, and I also don’t believe the DC Snyderverse is creatively bankrupt like people online keep harping on. If you want to discuss the creativity of DC vs Marvel than I would disagree that formulaic Marvel movies are more creative than the DC movies we have received. I think Marvel has a successful formula but that only means that they’re good at following a recipe, not that they’re inherently better or more interesting. DC movies have a problem with being undisciplined and scattershot, and trying to chase the wrong ideas because that’s what WB is into right now, that’s the main difference. A formula is a formula is a formula. Establishing the formula is interesting to watch, which is part of what made Iron Man and Daredevil S1 great when they came out. But it doesn’t put one over DC, and it doesn’t make Doctor Strange “more creative” than Justice League. It’s just a talking point for nerds to feel smug about : “Oh yeah, DC movies suck, they just haven’t hit on Marvel’s perfect formula that they reiterate with every single movie. DC is so creatively bankrupt.  ”Both sets of movies have their problems but Marvel movies don’t have a creative edge just for having a successful formula, it just means they’re inoffensive and safe. And there’s nothing inherently wrong with that, it just means that they’re not very interesting. This extends to their tv line in AoS and especially Netflix, which keeps imitating Daredevil S1 without understanding what made it great underneath the hood. DC’s problem, in tv (Titans) and in movies (BvS), is that they’re hitting the wrong notes and being overly edgy which is a big turn off. They haven’t found a niche and they’re spinning their wheels. And that’s a problem but it also is different from the Marvel formula problem. And at any rate, I think being formulaic sucks a lot more than just making a bad movie or tv show. Formulas are too safe to be interesting.
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Oct 5, 2018 01:20
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Barry Convex posted:the comic isn’t as edgy tryhard bullshit as this comes off, is it? it's a Garth Ennis comic which means that superheroes are just complete jokes who get in the way of REAL MEN doing the GRITTY STUFF that only REAL MEN usually WITH GUNS can do. also if you can work in some misogyny and planes that's good too
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Oct 5, 2018 01:38
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The boys is definitely mean-spirited and gross on several different levels but i dunno that you can call ennis tryhard because he just is that way, he doesnt need to try
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Oct 5, 2018 01:48
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Barry Convex posted:the comic isn’t as edgy tryhard bullshit as this comes off, is it? It's way worse.
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Oct 5, 2018 02:44
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esperterra posted:also iirc there was rights issues between the tv show and the superman movies (or movie, really. i think the brandon routh suit is even the one tom wears in the end lol), where the show could use clark etc but could not use the suit or something, which is why it only showed up in the finale? I think it mostly came down to Welling refusing to wear the suit. From everything I remember reading they had to CG and body double all the scenes where he becomes Superman. And they borrowed the Returns suit in like season 7 or something. Then in the finale the suit Ghost Pa gives him is a hilariously cheap Halloween costume quality because the original was back in the Warner archive.
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Oct 5, 2018 02:55
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So is The Gifted still treading water or did this season have a good opening?
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Oct 5, 2018 03:09
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HIJK posted:I don’t have an opinion about your takes regarding BvS, my only point of interest has ever been about your original assertion that the Marvel formula is creative by being a formula: Almost every major film and TV show released follows one of a handful of formulas. There are books written about this. Classes are taught about this. It is kind of how most movies and TV shows work. The MCU formula is particularly problematic because they went way too specific with it, and kept doing it over and over. I mean, it makes money, but yeesh. As for thinking formulas are too safe to be interesting, well if you like almost any major Hollywood film or TV show in the past 20 years and I am guessing you do since you are here, you like a formulaic thing. So you can't really say formulas suck and are uninteresting. If you like them then you like them. There are plenty of people that genuinely despise Hollywood formulas for exactly the reasons you state and those people do not watch almost any TV/Netflix/big blockbuster films because of it. Marvel didn't invent formulas for story telling. They just completely overdid it. That said, I am fairly certain that I haven't made any statement to the effect that Marvel is inherently superior because of their formula. In the sentence you highlighted specifically, there is no such claim at all. I'm pretty sure that I have been stating that those movies were better than those particular DC movies despite of their formula. And that is the same sentence you kind of referenced in your first reply when you claimed I made that argument. So I am not sure why you are zeroing in on that one sentence keep reading into it something that isn't there. It's not like I claimed those particular movies were dunking on The Dark Knight or some some legendary critical masterpiece. notthegoatseguy posted:So is The Gifted still treading water or did this season have a good opening? I have enjoyed it so far, but I enjoyed it last season too. So YMMV.
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Oct 5, 2018 03:11
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Lurdiak posted:It's way worse. ah okay, for some reason I thought the comic was well-regarded. guess I won’t be watching
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Oct 5, 2018 03:21
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Barry Convex posted:ah okay, for some reason I thought the comic was well-regarded. guess I won’t be watching Some people really like it, and they use the words "deconstruction" and "satire" wrong a lot when explaining why.
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Oct 5, 2018 03:48
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HIJK posted:A formula is a formula is a formula. Establishing the formula is interesting to watch, which is part of what made Iron Man and Daredevil S1 great when they came out. But it doesn’t put one over DC, and it doesn’t make Doctor Strange “more creative” than Justice League. It’s just a talking point for nerds to feel smug about : “Oh yeah, DC movies suck, they just haven’t hit on Marvel’s perfect formula that they reiterate with every single movie. DC is so creatively bankrupt. A more generous definition of "formula" can also be boiled down to "everything that makes a thing actually work." Narrative structure is formula. Pacing is formula. Cinematography is formula. Character dynamics and arcs are formula. Everything that they teach a filmmaker in school in order to help them become filmmakers is formula derived from decades of experience and study. So there's a danger in automatically assuming that adhering to a formula is somehow antithetical to creativity. The logical conclusion of that becomes "Well, if I don't do what these other movies do, that automatically means I'm being creative and original, right?" Well. Sure. Maybe. But those other movies probably did those things for really dang good reasons, so if your driving objective is to to be "not like all those other girls," chances are good you're gonna gently caress up in all the ways that they specifically avoided. 'Cuz. Y'know. They had a formula.
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Oct 5, 2018 04:05
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That’s bait .gifnotthegoatseguy posted:So is The Gifted still treading water or did this season have a good opening? The opening had a good opening but it didn’t actually do much, kind of like the finale. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Oct 5, 2018 |
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Oct 5, 2018 04:15
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ToastyPotato posted:Almost every major film and TV show released follows one of a handful of formulas. There are books written about this. Classes are taught about this. It is kind of how most movies and TV shows work. The MCU formula is particularly problematic because they went way too specific with it, and kept doing it over and over. I mean, it makes money, but yeesh. As for thinking formulas are too safe to be interesting, well if you like almost any major Hollywood film or TV show in the past 20 years and I am guessing you do since you are here, you like a formulaic thing. So you can't really say formulas suck and are uninteresting. If you like them then you like them. There are plenty of people that genuinely despise Hollywood formulas for exactly the reasons you state and those people do not watch almost any TV/Netflix/big blockbuster films because of it. Marvel didn't invent formulas for story telling. They just completely overdid it. Well, I actually haven't really enjoyed much of anything out of Hollywood for the past 20 years. The only recent movie I can think of off the top of my head that I liked was Refn's Drive, and he has a very distinctive style that I haven't seen imitated anywhere. (Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, just means I haven't seen it.) I do watch tv and movies but I can't tell you much about them because I don't remember them, it's all just kind of a gray blur. I highlighted that sentence because that's the one that stood out to me and that's how I read it. Otherwise it's not that deep. I wasn't planning to zero in on it but you've been replying and I've been replying and it's been a discussion I guess lol. You also seem to be convinced that I'm responding to some critique but I'm not, I don't really care about BvS. Also formulas suck and they're uninteresting, lmao. I only consume vegan free range organic narratives that you've probably never heard of huehue BrianWilly posted:People tend to have this really cynical definition of the term "formula" as if it's this...cold sterile calculation of easy-way-out ready-made ingredients of making a thing. And I get why people think that...heck, "formulaic" has become flat-out synonymous with being artistically cliched or repetitive. I wouldn't mind formulas so much if they didn't stick out so sharply which I think is a pitfall of modern media. Adhering to a formula isn't necessarily antithetical to creativity but I don't like how formulas are being used in American media and how these things are just copies of copies of copies of copies. I'm not a fan of the show Star Trek: Discovery and part of why is because it's copying Battlestar Galactica instead of Star Trek. Wrong formula I guess? lol I do know I would much rather watch an interesting failure than a paint by the numbers production.
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Oct 5, 2018 04:21
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I have no qualms about back and forths and discussions. I enjoy them, so I don't want you to think I am annoyed that you are quoting me. I was just pointing out that you kinda kept misreading a single sentence and formulating more and more of your responses around that misreading. Also TV shows follow the same rules as movies (generally, I mean, they have their own specific rules and formulas for the format but there is overlap), so not liking movies from Hollywood because they are formulaic but liking TV shows made by Hollywood is kind of iffy. Also I limited it to 20 years arbitrarily. The plot structures for Hollywood films are almost certainly older than either you or me, and they've been writing about them academically for nearly as long (well maybe at least the 1950s?) As far as I know there was no shift in production methods 20 years ago. I just guessed a number that was likely to cover most of your life.
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Oct 5, 2018 04:41
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All of which being said, I thought Ant-Man was so bluntly formulaic that I could literally predict everything that would happen onscreen fifteen-to-thirty seconds before it actually happened. Dr. Strange was a little bit less so, but that owed more to the source being pretty balls out trippy and less to what they did with it. ... ....wait which thread is this
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Oct 5, 2018 05:18
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There was a huge shift in movie production about 20 years ago. Oh Brother, Where Art Thou was the first film where literally every frame was color corrected in a computer, now almost every Hollywood production does that. But that's aesthetics not plot.
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Oct 5, 2018 05:18
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ToastyPotato posted:I have no qualms about back and forths and discussions. I enjoy them, so I don't want you to think I am annoyed that you are quoting me. I was just pointing out that you kinda kept misreading a single sentence and formulating more and more of your responses around that misreading. I don't like tv shows either haha I've also given up on television. I talk about Daredevil S1 a lot in the relevant threads and that's because Daredevil S1 really stood out as stellar storytelling to me, it was really unique and told a beautifully human story...in the context of superhero television of all things. But Daredevil S2 super disappointed me and I haven't really liked anything else the Netflix Marvel tv studio has put out. The same goes for other tv shows I've watched especially since the copy pasted bits are so easy to pick out. I guess the older I get the more cynical I become about tv and movies in general. I wish they had better storytelling and that there was more courage in the writers' rooms. And a lot of that is attributable to an over reliance on templates like Save the Cat or whatever they're using these days. It's not that you can't tell good stories out of these recipes, you can. I just haven't seen any in a while and I know it's not because the scriptwriters and producers are overly creative and brilliant and willing to take risks.
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Oct 5, 2018 05:36
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BrianWilly posted:People tend to have this really cynical definition of the term "formula" as if it's this...cold sterile calculation of easy-way-out ready-made ingredients of making a thing. And I get why people think that...heck, "formulaic" has become flat-out synonymous with being artistically cliched or repetitive. It's like how any movie with any sort of studio backing whatsoever these days is "written by committee". Of course, making movies is an inherently collaborative process, so I suppose it's technically correct. 
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Oct 5, 2018 08:41
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Skwirl posted:There was a huge shift in movie production about 20 years ago. Oh Brother, Where Art Thou was the first film where literally every frame was color corrected in a computer, now almost every Hollywood production does that. But that's aesthetics not plot. Yeah I hosed that up and meant pre-production (writing, story telling/plotting stuff.) Wheat Loaf posted:It's like how any movie with any sort of studio backing whatsoever these days is "written by committee". Of course, making movies is an inherently collaborative process, so I suppose it's technically correct. Yeah. I think a lot of people believe that truly good movies only ever have one writer, without realizing that even movies with one credited writer will have uncredited writers and script doctors, or just plain input from other people. Not the mention that during production, it is common for directors and even actors to modify things further. BrianWilly posted:All of which being said, I thought Ant-Man was so bluntly formulaic that I could literally predict everything that would happen onscreen fifteen-to-thirty seconds before it actually happened. I agree. Ant-Man is easily one of the most egregious examples. I included it because I am mad about DC movies. HIJK posted:I don't like tv shows either haha I've also given up on television. I talk about Daredevil S1 a lot in the relevant threads and that's because Daredevil S1 really stood out as stellar storytelling to me, it was really unique and told a beautifully human story...in the context of superhero television of all things. That's completely fair. But I guess the last big question is have you ever enjoyed TV or movies? Or do you now dislike the things you once liked as well? I do see how one can become jaded over time because of things never really seeming to get better. My TV viewing is probably down 90% from 5 years ago. I am barely clinging on to the CW shows at this point. Hell I am practically barely clinging on to anything I watch on TV these days. I've pretty much given up on sitcoms, though I am now curious about this Good Place show that I have been hearing about. Netflix shows only work for me because I can binge them whenever I feel like it. If it weren't for that, I dunno if I'd be able to watch them most of the time. I certainly wouldn't have made it though IF1 or JJ2.
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Oct 5, 2018 15:42
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ToastyPotato posted:That's completely fair. But I guess the last big question is have you ever enjoyed TV or movies? Or do you now dislike the things you once liked as well? I do see how one can become jaded over time because of things never really seeming to get better. My TV viewing is probably down 90% from 5 years ago. I am barely clinging on to the CW shows at this point. Hell I am practically barely clinging on to anything I watch on TV these days. I've pretty much given up on sitcoms, though I am now curious about this Good Place show that I have been hearing about. Netflix shows only work for me because I can binge them whenever I feel like it. If it weren't for that, I dunno if I'd be able to watch them most of the time. I certainly wouldn't have made it though IF1 or JJ2. Oof, that’s a super good question. I tend to like first seasons a lot and subsquent seasons a lot less. I liked Riverdale S1 a lot more than S2, which i ended up giving up on halfway through. Riverdale S1 was a weird amalgamation of a lot of different tropes though: it was a noir detective story, but also a coming of age, but also a story of corporate intrigue, but also a story of competing families and fundie Christian drama, and an intense CW highschool drama, and then a last minute throw of urban fantasy at the end when Cheryl sees her brother’s zombie corpse. What interested me was how adeptly the show juggled all of these elements and then tied it all together with remarkably well done camera work, I can’t believe it was a CW show. But then S2 wasn’t quite as interesting because it wasn’t done in a crucible, they had more room with the expanded episode count which meant the show wasn’t quite as tightly written, and became a little more boring as a result. Then I really enjoyed the first season of True Detective, which was bonkers but had a similar crucible feeling of Riverdale S1. I really enjoyed the horror of that one which unfortunately I haven’t seen replicated anywhere else. It took the typical exploitive HBO sexual psycho drama and then told you what a piece of poo poo you were for liking it, and then it actually handled the topic of sex trafficking and child abuse in a borderline respectful way. It also helped that the actors were fantastic, and again the camera work was super punchy and had me screaming in my chair a lot of the time. But S2, I didn’t hear good things about it and it didn’t have the supernatural elements, so I gave it a miss. The last tv show I liked was Broadchurch S1 which I binged in a day because it wad such a compelling character drama and it showed the destruction of a town over a single death so adeptly. It’s all heightened of course but it was also what convinced me that David Tennant was a great actor in his own right. Broadchurch S2 did not measure up, I think it became a really stupidly written court room drama that was just badly handled from start to finish, and I stopped watching after that. I really enjoyed NBC Hannibal as well but that quickly changed from a police drama and became about the cat and mouse game between Will Graham and Hannibal Lecter. Then it shifted to their taboo love story and how it revolved around their emotional damage and cannibalism. Also had stellar camera work. Daredevil S1 I liked for a lot of reasons I’ve covered in other posts. Looking at these, what drew me in initially was the crime stories but then all of these shows went off in weird directions, and I really enjoyed those directions. I haven’t heard anything about the Good Place, is it...decent?
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Oct 5, 2018 16:32
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The Good Place is forking amazing.
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Oct 5, 2018 16:34
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The good place owns The reason you didnt like true detective s2 was because it was bad
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Oct 5, 2018 16:47
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I guess with the exception of Hannibal, all your examples are shows that everyone considers to have dropped in quality in their second seasons.
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Oct 5, 2018 16:47
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I said it in the movie thread, but Grounded being a selling point instantly makes me skeptical of the quality.
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Oct 5, 2018 17:26
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My whole thing with Marvel is that for as formulaic as they might be (and they can be pretty bad in that regard, looking at you, Dr. Strange, nice third act though) it's a formula I like. Because I like superheroes. And even with all these Marvel flicks, there are still not enough good superhero movies to make me go "Okay, they should stop making these." Maybe it'd be different if anyone else was doing a decent job or if there were other companies putting out more crazy, imaginative stuff. But there's not. Deadpool, Logan, and Wonder Woman were good but not exactly "weirdo in a colorful outfit saves the day by beating up other, different, more sinister weirdo" material. Lurdiak posted:Some people really like it, and they use the words "deconstruction" and "satire" wrong a lot when explaining why. I like the Boys ultimately because for all of the eye-roll-y stuff about how lovely superheroes are, the core cast and their story is pretty good. I doubt it'll change any minds, and with marketing like that I can't blame people for getting the wrong idea, but the real nature of the book is demonstrated in how (arguably) the worst person in the entire comic is actually the guy who hates superheroes and the "real bad guys" are profit obsessed corporate shitheels who literally recruited a Nazi ubermesnch and dressed him up like Superman, because they thought it'd be good for their bottom line. I wouldn't recommend it in general, it's definitely the kind of thing you need to be tuned to a certain wavelength for, but it's not like it's Crossed.
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Oct 5, 2018 18:16
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Yeah I can't lie, I went into it knowing it would be peak Ennis awful and expecting to drop it quickly but wound up binging the entire thing over like 3 days because for all its faults I found it to be pretty engaging
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Oct 5, 2018 18:34
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The Boys is a book that exists in a state of "extremely good" and "extremely bad".
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Oct 5, 2018 18:42
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Mr Hootington posted:The Boys is a book that exists in a state of "extremely good" and "extremely bad". Schrodinger's Comic.
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Oct 5, 2018 18:45
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