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ChairMaster posted:
Society has never been peaceful nor stable in any absolute sense. It has experienced varying degrees of conflict, and the net amount of conflict will drastically increase regardless of our pathway at this point. Your problem is that you try to think in things in terms of a binary peace/conflict outcome when there is nothing but varying degrees of conflict. We absolutely have the ability to leave an imprint on how far we turn up that knob.
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Oct 9, 2018 07:06
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ChairMaster posted:RE the world being completely and utterly unprepared and unwilling to make an effort in any meaningful way, which has been my main contention for a long time. You seem to be latching onto some vague definition of "meaningful" that justifies your FYGM attitude about climate. Like your claim that the Paris accord goals are meaningless because they won't limit us to +2C˚, which ignores the reality that even the +3-4C˚ under Paris goals has far better impacts for humanity and the globe than +4-6C˚. That's meaningful even if it isn't sufficient.
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Oct 9, 2018 07:11
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I've never been anything but forthright about the fact that I don't care much for the difference between 4 and 6 degrees when both scenarios likely involve a level of hardship to such a degree that my country will likely no longer be a safe or place to live with regards to the standard of safety and happiness I am accustomed to. I just don't buy that any of the insufficient work being done to combat climate change will even be continuous when things start to get even a little bit harder for the average person in developed nations across the globe. Do you guys really believe that any fight against climate change will continue when the average person starts to feel the hardship that's already coming? That they won't flock for the nearest Trump style dipshit and go to war instead?
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Oct 9, 2018 07:17
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ChairMaster posted:Do you guys really believe that any fight against climate change will continue when the average person starts to feel the hardship that's already coming? That they won't flock for the nearest Trump style dipshit and go to war instead? Have you bothered to look at the politics of any of the low lying islands that are already getting ransacked and will be destroyed by 2C alone? I mean drat Barbados's president is a woman labor party member that used the last UN address to push for serious climate policies. Much like the rest of the world, they are a mixed bag and they will continue to be a mixed bag of both good and bad. Sounds like once again you already decided the conclusion of your hypothesis up front so you never bothered to do even a basic level of research.
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Oct 9, 2018 07:30
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ChairMaster is just repeating the same narrative that the Trump administration is trying to push, that the rich should be allowed to get away with anything because its too late. In time, I think he and people like him will gradually come to the realization that there is work to be done..
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Oct 9, 2018 07:35
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I can tell we're making progress on climate change because we've moved the weenie side of the overton window past denial to despair. A few more oscillations between optimism and pessimism and we'll be somewhere pragmatic. Thankfully the hurricanes and wildfires and floods and droughts will help speed us through that process.
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Oct 9, 2018 07:59
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:Have you bothered to look at the politics of any of the low lying islands that are already getting ransacked and will be destroyed by 2C alone? I mean drat Barbados's president is a woman labor party member that used the last UN address to push for serious climate policies. Much like the rest of the world, they are a mixed bag and they will continue to be a mixed bag of both good and bad. Small scarcely populated islands are not going to have much of a say in what goes on in the world, and the largest and most powerful countries are literally being taken over by fascists as we speak. You don't need a rate of 100% of all countries for it to be too many. Brazil is going to burn down their entire rain forest for god's sake. Mata posted:ChairMaster is just repeating the same narrative that the Trump administration is trying to push, that the rich should be allowed to get away with anything because its too late. I've been probated like half a dozen times for saying that any real progress would involve the deaths of a lot of rich people, so I don't say that anymore.
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Oct 9, 2018 14:06
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i've been trying to think of forms of 'direct action' that stay well shy of anything that could be labeled terrorism or hurting anyone I think the key flaw in our system is the use of financial leverage to force a long term compound interest growth outcome. The moral supremacy of bondholders and all that. But it seems like that is incredibly ripe for being used against them. If someone is walking a tight-rope you don't have to touch them to send them plummeting, you just need a breeze or to provoke a flinch. coal plants, imho enemy #1, are already in very precarious financial situations. what could be done to drive the operating costs of a given coal plant up ... i dunno, 2%? I think a kind of full-court-press strategy could easily do such a thing: - protesters blocking the parkinglots and doors and whatnot on random frequent occasions - air quality sensor networks built out in the surrounding communities with the data turned into nice web graphics and actively 'pushed' toward local mothers - regular drone flyover/around HD videos for picking apart every little thing about the operation we can (very likely to find corners being cut) - figure out how to choke them, like, how does the coal actually get logistically supplied to the station, how can every town and waterway in that path be brought into the fight, reverse engineer the supply chain and find its weakest links - just straight up lawyers, I know that really means money, but are there ways to turn $10k of lawyer money on our side into $1M of laywer/compliance/etc work on their end? come to think of it there's a multi decade history of this kind of thing being wildly successful with nuclear, we can probably just review the history and lightly refresh the tactics
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Oct 9, 2018 15:27
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:I can tell we're making progress on climate change because we've moved the weenie side of the overton window past denial to despair. A few more oscillations between optimism and pessimism and we'll be somewhere pragmatic. Thankfully the hurricanes and wildfires and floods and droughts will help speed us through that process. I'm hopeful, but I'm not sure western civilization as it's currently configured has the philosophical underpinnings to move beyond the denial/despair dichotomy in a productive way. With the collapse of organized religion, the cult of progress is the dominant ethos of the west. The average american has a frame of reference that can conceive only of a future of increasing consumption and technological complexity. If for some reason that can't happen, the only other possibility is one dominated by roving bands of cannibals. The idea that the future will get steadily "worse" (in terms of consumption) for not only your lifetime but the lifetimes of your children and their children is going to break a lot of brains, and despair is a fertile breeding ground for extremism. We already see a resurgent fascism with the damage done to the cult of progress by late stage capitalism and early climate change. If we're going to transition to tackling climate change by engaging with reality, it will require a dramatic shift in the western ethos.
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Oct 9, 2018 15:42
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Wakko posted:I'm hopeful, but I'm not sure western civilization as it's currently configured has the philosophical underpinnings to move beyond the denial/despair dichotomy in a productive way. With the collapse of organized religion, the cult of progress is the dominant ethos of the west. The average american has a frame of reference that can conceive only of a future of increasing consumption and technological complexity. If for some reason that can't happen, the only other possibility is one dominated by roving bands of cannibals. Hey, good post
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Oct 9, 2018 15:47
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https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/09/dutch-appeals-court-upholds-landmark-climate-change-ruling Dutch court orders the government to up its climate targets, this is good although the new targets are still not enough. Holland is tiny and doesn't matter on its own but maybe if we do manage to decarbonize it can at least be an example or something.
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Oct 9, 2018 16:07
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ChairMaster posted:
Sure, up until the first nuclear exchange. We won't need more than one exchange to remind everybody the cost of war these days. I'm placing bets on the Himalayas being that flashpoint.
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Oct 9, 2018 16:41
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StabbinHobo posted:i've been trying to think of forms of 'direct action' that stay well shy of anything that could be labeled terrorism or hurting anyone I feel like the best and most obvious choice of what to do here is to just pass regulations upon them that are designed for the strict purpose of killing them outright rather than forcing them to limit their environmental impact, and inflict crippling financial penalties on them if they don't comply. This has the added benefit (from my perspective) of that most of the financial and economic damage would go to some of the most CHUD-dense parts of the country so it's not like you're going to piss off your base.
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Oct 9, 2018 17:25
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Papal Infallibility posted:I feel like the best and most obvious choice of what to do here is to just pass regulations upon them that are designed for the strict purpose of killing them outright rather than forcing them to limit their environmental impact, and inflict crippling financial penalties on them if they don't comply. This has the added benefit (from my perspective) of that most of the financial and economic damage would go to some of the most CHUD-dense parts of the country so it's not like you're going to piss off your base. Well, the difference is that direct action is stuff anyone can do, and if it snowballs into large movements and concentrates its force on the right things, it can have surprising power. Whereas you have zero power to pass regulations on coal, and the whole electoral system is designed to dissuade politically radical solutions, instead letting you go with the best you can achieve a majority of relevant representatives for (that don't make decisions based on what their voters would prefer, as confirmed by science) or go home (last time i checked, the best american environmentalists could get a majority for was withdrawal from the Paris accords and a dishonest promise to revive coal). It's not a choice at all, you're engaging in daydreaming. uncop fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Oct 9, 2018 |
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Oct 9, 2018 17:54
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Trabisnikof posted:Honestly, there's a strong argument to be made that Americans would be more understanding of the impacts of climate change if we used C˚. initially, before i cut/paste/shotgunned my post, I expanded on how 7F was a subtle propaganda manipulation by the trump administration. the aliens came after i wanted to make a funny, and i got kind of lost in the woods making that funny-poopy. it would be pretty smart (but may just be coincidental) to exploit the average person's attention span. the average person may feel they're doing their due diligence by investigating this eyeball grabbing headline a level deeper. then when John Q. Public realizes 'oh it's just 4C, that sounds more reasonable  ' he just goes back to business as usual and assumes it was a media trick/conn/nothing to be concerned about. i keep bashing away at this idea regarding average people and how specific language matters (to the point of near-meta absurdity) because the majority of people in this country are not goons who can do C-<->-F conversions in their head, so you're* lucky you can get them to pay attention to you at all. and if they find ANYTHING to confirm their existing bias they'll just latch onto it as a lifeboat for their inaction. and they surely won't want to kill you, the fictional strawman goon (not anyone in particular), after you call them an idiot for not knowing *something as simple as: code: when you're talking about how you saw all this coming. Edit: * removed extra 'as', various typo's Edit 2: and why John Q. Public would say '4C sounds reasonable' is because up until recently the only headlines I have personally seen involved temperature rise in C. the key here, that i was informed of in a previous thread, is that John Q. Public is a "low information consumer" . a lot of my posts are based on you (the reader) having read my previous posts, as i don't want to be redundant. im depressed lol fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Oct 9, 2018 |
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Oct 9, 2018 18:05
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Papal Infallibility posted:I feel like the best and most obvious choice of what to do here is to just pass regulations upon them that are designed for the strict purpose of killing them outright
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Oct 9, 2018 18:26
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StabbinHobo posted:come to think of it there's a multi decade history of this kind of thing being wildly successful with nuclear, we can probably just review the history and lightly refresh the tactics Anti-nuclear has a lot of local support behind it, whereas dumbfuck rurals have been conditioned to welcome black-lung factories into their communities as a wholesome and traditionally MURRICAN income source.
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Oct 9, 2018 18:32
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https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45775309 "This is the moment that we will remember; this is the year when the turning point happened" We are so hosed
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Oct 9, 2018 18:47
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Conspiratiorist posted:Anti-nuclear has a lot of local support behind it, whereas dumbfuck rurals have been conditioned to welcome black-lung factories into their communities as a wholesome and traditionally MURRICAN income source. you can have this impulse, its not wrong per se, but if you use it as an excuse to just sit there then its total bullshit there are around 1000 coal plants in the u.s., and I can name one off the top of my head that is nowhere near "dumbfuck rurals" or a mining community.
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Oct 9, 2018 18:59
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Oh no, that wasn't my intention. Rather, I'm saying you just aren't going to get the same kind of pressure against coal going without grassroots support, which will be extremely difficult without some serious media reprogramming of local populations, which faces its own issues given - well, we all know what's been going on and worsening for the past several years.
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Oct 9, 2018 19:26
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Conspiratiorist posted:Oh no, that wasn't my intention. This is why direct action isn't ever going to work, since those local populations are inevitably going to use their local police and governing bodies against you and those groups will be more than happy to respond to your efforts as violently as they feel they can get away with.
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Oct 9, 2018 19:30
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StabbinHobo posted:i've been trying to think of forms of 'direct action' that stay well shy of anything that could be labeled terrorism or hurting anyone The attacks on nuclear were only successful because the activists could point at coal and say "See, we don't need nuclear for energy, we have 300 years of coal reserves!" Ironically now environmental activists can point at nuclear and say "See, we don't need coal, nuclear provides the energy we need without carbon emissions!"
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Oct 9, 2018 19:39
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Papal Infallibility posted:This is why direct action isn't ever going to work, since those local populations are inevitably going to use their local police and governing bodies against you and those groups will be more than happy to respond to your efforts as violently as they feel they can get away with. There is direct action that could work (and mind you, just as easily backfire), but it'd be the kind that'd get me banned for suggesting. The best personally safe way to tackle Climate Change is and has always been: a) Build up your net worth/support network. b) Learn to slim your consumption. c) Stay informed. d) Promote and participate in political action. Incidentally, all these four measures contribute to each other.
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Oct 9, 2018 19:40
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Conspiratiorist posted:There is direct action that could work (and mind you, just as easily backfire), but it'd be the kind that'd get me banned for suggesting. Who the heck are you fantasizing you could murder that would do anything? It's not a video game where you kill the head of a coal plant and the plant just collapses and is gone.
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Oct 9, 2018 20:16
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Who the heck are you fantasizing you could murder that would do anything? It's not a video game where you kill the head of a coal plant and the plant just collapses and is gone. its called terrorism for a reason. those kinds of actions aren't just about removing a person specifically for removing that specific person, but also to inflict fear upon others who would do something similar. I tend to agree that what he's suggesting could probably be far more useful than voting or whatever. Ideally some kind of multi-pronged approach that included violence kind of like during early labor movement stuff. Voting is essentially useless, simply marching in the streets or blocking projects has shown to be useless. I think that is a HUUUUUUUGE part of the problem right now with regards to changing any of the big issues going on. Specifically that one side is constantly using violence on a massive scale to suppress, kill and detain people and the other side is like "oh nooo we wouldn't even want to suggest that we should do something violent". I read a good book called nonviolence aint what it used to be that talks a lot about that poo poo, highly recommend.
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Oct 9, 2018 20:30
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Who the heck are you fantasizing you could murder that would do anything? It's not a video game where you kill the head of a coal plant and the plant just collapses and is gone. Obviously, duh. You'll have to murder a gently caress lot more than one guy.
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Oct 9, 2018 20:39
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How are u posted:You'll have to murder a gently caress lot more than one guy. remember murder is a legal term, so if you kill enough that there is no one left to prosecute you then you never did a murder But realistically there are plenty of modern day examples of groups using terrorism to acquire and maintain power. Just look at the US police, or the drug cartels of south america. I won't mind eating a ban/probation whatever for saying what everyone in here is hinting at when they say 'nothing can be done' or what that guy was originally hinting at. Violence should be met with violence. The global scale of climate change and the number of people that will suffer either directly or indirectly calls for more than just voting and canvassing and writing signs with clever tag lines. On top of that there are people directly benefiting from the policies of doing nothing about climate change regardless of which of the lovely US parties you support and those people need to be held accountable. Doorknob Slobber fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Oct 9, 2018 |
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Oct 9, 2018 20:45
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hey please don't get this thread gassed TIA if your plan is to solve climate change by doing a bunch of illegal poo poo maybe a good first step is to not post it online. oh, you don't actually plan to do anything? well then there's not much point in posting about it.
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Oct 9, 2018 21:20
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Wakko posted:oh, you don't actually plan to do anything? well then there's not much point in posting about it. so gas the thread anyways because no one is posting about doing anything thats going to accomplish anything
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Oct 9, 2018 21:21
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When you think about it, the heads in power advocating for policies that exacerbate climate change are the real terrorists 
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Oct 9, 2018 22:12
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Ignoring the moral/ethical question and only looking predictively, even SR15 says that violence, war, conflict, instability are all more likely under scenarios where our political and social institutions aren't strengthened and more of the global economy brought into strictly regulated and controlled systems. So the future of the world is either those creating the emissions stop, or eventually everyone else forces them. The middle part of the story, in what form does revolution come and when, can still be undecided even if the outcomes are not. Either the revolution comes sooner and less violently or later with more bloodshed, but it is coming.
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Oct 9, 2018 22:25
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I missed the bulk of the last 200 posts, but I'm stoked that the thread has finally seen the light and come around to my stance on the matter.
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Oct 9, 2018 22:49
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Trabisnikof posted:Ignoring the moral/ethical question and only looking predictively, even SR15 says that violence, war, conflict, instability are all more likely under scenarios where our political and social institutions aren't strengthened and more of the global economy brought into strictly regulated and controlled systems. The ones creating the emissions all have nuclear weapons, there is no way to stop them by force. The only hope for climate refugees is that Russia and Canada allow massive immigration to their uninhabited lands.
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Oct 9, 2018 23:06
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Rime posted:I missed the bulk of the last 200 posts, but I'm stoked that the thread has finally seen the light and come around to my stance on the matter. your stance on the matter is borne from angst over your pathological inability to kiss a lady, so i'd say they have a leg up on you even
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Oct 9, 2018 23:07
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IMO anyone here advocating violence should be treated as the blackwater/COINTELPRO thugs they are. you're just polarizing people who would be sympathetic to your side. it has no place here, where people are still learning about how bad things are. Argument: We should kill the rich. Counter-Argument: A rich guy pays twenty people to kill you.
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Oct 9, 2018 23:12
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qkkl posted:The ones creating the emissions all have nuclear weapons, there is no way to stop them by force. The only hope for climate refugees is that Russia and Canada allow massive immigration to their uninhabited lands. Who? Do people think Joe smog is somewhere creating pollution? It's everyone everywhere creating co2 through all sorts of mundane stuff that needs to be improved and replaced. Not some rich guy farting it all out personally.
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Oct 9, 2018 23:58
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you have to be one of the worst posters to ever exist.
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Oct 10, 2018 00:07
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I'll have you know that I liked/shared this thread on Fark, Digg and Odnoklassniki, so I've done my part against Climate Change.  quote:IMO anyone here advocating violence should be treated as the blackwater/COINTELPRO thugs they are. How's the view from up on that there high road, chumpy? I think that if someone wants to advocate for violence, they should go all the way and target the children and grandchildren of the rich, not the rich themselves. Go big or go home. Make the estate tax really live up to that "Death Tax" moniker. If you want to discuss this idea further, you can write to me at this cell address at Guantanamo...
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Oct 10, 2018 00:16
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I actually have no idea what we're going to do... It's scary to realize we've created circumstances where even the smartest people can't confidently say they know how to "make this better". I feel like we've been living in a growing bubble of unsustainability and I don't know what's going to happen when it pops.
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Oct 10, 2018 00:23
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Who? Do people think Joe smog is somewhere creating pollution? It's everyone everywhere creating co2 through all sorts of mundane stuff that needs to be improved and replaced. Not some rich guy farting it all out personally. Right, and how can all the millions of people who are producing emissions be stopped by force? They can't, they built nuclear weapons and elected leaders to use those nuclear weapons to protect them. Americans have no reason to stop global warming; they will just appropriate the rich jungles of Canada when the time comes.
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Oct 10, 2018 00:41
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