STAR WARS -- I Am Altering The Canon. Pray I Don't Alter It Any Further

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > BSS: Bisexual Super Son > STAR WARS -- I Am Altering The Canon. Pray I Don't Alter It Any Further

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Nodosaur: Dec 23, 2014

sorry, I was remembering an over-simplified version of it:

https://www.vox.com/2018/5/29/17365958/lando-pansexual-controversy-star-wars-slash-fic-history

quote:

A month later, Lucasfilm branched out even further. In an open letter to all fanzine editors, distributed through the fan club, Lucasfilm claimed � in what would today generally be deemed an inaccurate understanding of fair use in copyright � that explicit fanfiction was essentially illegal. A third letter made it explicit that �The word has come from George Lucas, himself, that STAR WARS pornography is unquestionable [sic] unacceptable.�

Obviously, this development alarmed many fanfic writers and particularly cowed writers of queer fiction, which has historically been seen within fandom as especially illicit. The result was a widespread dearth of queer fanfiction for an entire decade. According to the fandom preservation wiki Fanlore, despite those early fanzines� attempts to publish slash, after the Lucasfilm crackdown, slash ships in general, and the pairing of Han/Luke in particular, were essentially unpublishable in fanzines throughout the �80s.

Crucially, it�s not that people weren�t writing this fiction � it just wasn�t being distributed. This kind of fic is referred to as �drawerfic,� meaning you basically pull an Emily Dickinson and only show it to your close friends, if anyone. Witness the Han/Luke fanfic �Evidence,� written in 1981 and only published in a zine in 1998.

Two fans are generally credited for creating a resurgence of Star Wars slash fiction in the �90s after the dampening impact of these letters. One of them, the fanzine editor Z.P. Florian, died last month. The other, influential Han/Luke author Cara Loup, told Vox that when she began writing and editing fanzines in the early �90s, she�d �been duly warned to keep a low profile.� Through fan conventions like MediaWest, however, fans� fears became replaced by determination.

�I think everyone had their expectations shaped by Lucasfilm-induced paranoia,� she said, �but all of that really vanished into thin air once we all met face to face.� It was at conventions throughout the �80s and early �90s that fanzines featuring fanfic, including slash, were famously distributed by hand. �After a couple years, nobody expected a Lucasfilm crackdown anymore.�

And then, of course, came the internet. �The internet made slash more accessible in general,� said Loup. �Phantom Menace hit the theaters, and Qui-Gon/Obi-wan appealed to so many that the dam finally broke.�

so less an explicit ban and more a threat towards the idea in general that drove this stuff even further underground.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 09:15

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# ? May 17, 2024 09:27

bloodysabbath: May 1, 2004; OH NO!

Alls I knows is that the Disney buyout made KOTOR and Shadows of the Empire non-canon, plus Wendig made the soyboy face on his Twitter profile intentionally so he can go gently caress himself.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 09:28

Lake Jucas: Feb 20, 2011; WHAT OF OUR BARGAIN?

bloodysabbath posted:

Alls I knows is that the Disney buyout made KOTOR and Shadows of the Empire non-canon

But it also made Dark Nest/Legacy of the Force/Fate of the Jedi non-canon, so really it's a net plus.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 09:39

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Does it matter if any of this is "canon" or not?

You know, I still read my old Dark Horse comics from time to time. That they're "not canon" doesn't really matter. I still like the stories.

gently caress, they were barely "canon" when they were being published because George Lucas would've just ignored them and done his own thing if he'd wanted to make a new movie or a new tv series.

Actually, that's what actually happened and it was fine.

Likewise I haven't read any of the new novels because I don't expect any of them to be any good (I haven't seen anything to disabuse me of the notion - I had a go at Tim Zahn's first new Thrawn novel and all it did was make me realise the Thrawn trilogy was never that good; I just liked it when I was 12), and I don't feel like I've lost out for not following every "canon" thing out there.

Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Oct 13, 2018

# ? Oct 13, 2018 09:49

UltimoDragonQuest: Oct 5, 2011

I read most of the Dark Horse Vader minis and the 3 Infinities books this year. Ghost Prison and Lost Command are the best of the lot. They're fun little detours.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 10:19

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

My favourite late period Dark Horse books were Agent of the Empire and the pre-Phantom Menace era one with Qui-Gon Jinn.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 10:33

Xenomrph: Dec 9, 2005; AvP Nerd/Fanboy/Shill

Wheat Loaf posted:

Does it matter if any of this is "canon" or not?

You know, I still read my old Dark Horse comics from time to time. That they're "not canon" doesn't really matter. I still like the stories.

gently caress, they were barely "canon" when they were being published because George Lucas would've just ignored them and done his own thing if he'd wanted to make a new movie or a new tv series.

Actually, that's what actually happened and it was fine.

Likewise I haven't read any of the new novels because I don't expect any of them to be any good (I haven't seen anything to disabuse me of the notion - I had a go at Tim Zahn's first new Thrawn novel and all it did was make me realise the Thrawn trilogy was never that good; I just liked it when I was 12), and I don't feel like I've lost out for not following every "canon" thing out there.

It�s almost as if canon is a useless concept from a fan perspective.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 10:50

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

As I've said elsewhere, canon is basically a marketing gimmick.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 10:59

UltimoDragonQuest: Oct 5, 2011

Wheat Loaf posted:

As I've said elsewhere, canon is basically a marketing gimmick.

It got me to read the Dark Horse Darth Maul book. Worth it for this panel alone.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 11:08

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

Xenomrph posted:

It�s almost as if canon is a useless concept from a fan perspective.

Unless you want to discuss an ongoing narrative.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 13:58

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

jivjov posted:

Unless you want to discuss an ongoing narrative.

Star Trek and Doctor Who have existed for more than 50 years with a nebulous idea of "canon" at best and people have never had any difficulty discussing their "ongoing narrative".

# ? Oct 13, 2018 14:03

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

Wheat Loaf posted:

Star Trek and Doctor Who have existed for more than 50 years with a nebulous idea of "canon" at best and people have never had any difficulty discussing their "ongoing narrative".

I'm pretty sure episodes of the show are canonical to each other. Those franchises have never gone with a sprawling, cross media ongoing narrative...but that doesn't mean they don't have a continuity.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 14:09

Xenomrph: Dec 9, 2005; AvP Nerd/Fanboy/Shill

jivjov posted:

Unless you want to discuss an ongoing narrative.

I addressed that in the post I linked.

Also, �canon� and �continuity� aren�t synonyms.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 15:31

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Actually here's a post I masturbated out on the subject in the Book Barn Star Wars thread the other day:

quote:

I have some background in intellectual property law and I'm interested in how it affects our own responses to media. While I know Disney will never let the copyright on, for example, Mickey expire if they can help it (they will doubtless have to give up on it at some point, but it's probably a ways off yet) I think it is interesting to speculate on how that actually happening might affect our response to the character. Presumably Disney would continue to do things with Mickey - he'd still be their mascot - and I think that even with other people now producing competing works using the character (let's assume this would happen as a matter of course), the "Disney version" would still occupy the pre-eminent position in the minds of most customers and fans because Mickey is "a Disney character" - he's the Disney character - and their version will always "count" for the most.

Bringing it back to Star Wars, suppose instead of selling Lucasfilm, Lucas had waived any IP rights in respect of Star Wars and let it enter the public domain. I'm not sure if it's legally possible to do this in America (it is in Britain) but I presume it is, so let's go with it. You probably end up with every major studio trying to bring out competing Star Wars movies, because nobody owns the exclusive right to do this any longer. So you might end up with a Disney Star Wars, a Sony Star Wars, a Netflix Star Wars, a Universal Star Wars, a Fox Star Wars, a Pureflix Star Wars, an Amazon Star Wars, a Dinesh D'Souza Star Wars (if he can get the money together there's nothing stopping him!) and so on and so forth. Some, none or all of them might be very good, some, none or all of them might be utterly terrible, but let's leave aside speculative quality for now. First of all, I think this would lead to real "Star Wars fatigue" far beyond what people insist we're living with now, and Jivjov would probably need to be committed, but beyond that, I think people would just end up debating which one is the "real" Star Wars and whether they're all "fanfiction" or which one should be taken as "official". I actually think this would be quite a good thing [if there were loads of competing versions of Star Wars instead of just the one, because I think competition can be an important method of encouraging creativity], but I really get the impression that a lot of people really do care about that for one reason or another. Suppose if Lucasfilm kept on making Star Wars movies of its own in this scenario, without any involvement of Lucas; would these be "official" Star Wars, or at least "more official" Star Wars?

One thing I've observed in nerd fandoms (and occasionally in the audience of normal people who actually go to see movies) is this fixation on the idea that things need to "count". Back when Sony dealt with Disney to let Spider-Man appear in MCU movies, that was reported by no less than the BBC as Spider-Man getting back into the movies that "count" because "Marvel movies" are the MCU; when Disney started buying Fox, people talked about how there were finally going to be "real" Fantastic Four movies coming out of it as a result. I know people who really disliked Agents of Shield in its first season, but nonetheless made a point of watching every episode because it was "canon" to the MCU and they felt like they had to watch it all in case they missed something "important" to this imagined overall narrative which the MCU doesn't really have, but which everyone believes it has anyway. By the same token, I know people who go out of their way to buy comics they otherwise won't read if they have any kind of "EVENT CROSSOVER TIE-IN ISSUE!" badge on the cover, because they feel like they're not getting the "full" story otherwise.

With Star Wars, there are plenty of people who were happy to pick and choose what they thought should "count" in the old EU. There were even helpful "canon levels" to help. Some people were very "Zahn only" purists, others made allowances for KOTOR or the X-Wing novels and so on and so forth. Indeed, that's why some people got especially grumpy about the prequels; they didn't like them but, because they were at the highest level of "canon", they couldn't ignore them (which is rubbish, because if you only like the original trilogy there's absolutely nothing stopping you from just watching those over and over and over again and not bothering with the prequels, but this apparently didn't occur to some people). I knew plenty of people who did that and I'm sure you did as well. But now, everything is officially "canon" so some (not all) of the same people feel obliged to chase down everything because they feel like they'd be missing some crucial piece of this "complete story" which they imagine the entire Star Wars franchise apart from the movies to have. How many times on this very forum have you seen people saying, "I was never interested in the Star Wars EU, but now it's all canon, I feel like I ought to get into it"? Certainly more than once for me.

As I've said before, it's all marketing and it's quite clever and that's why it works.

Maybe I've got a cynical view of it. I think I'm being realistic.

Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Oct 13, 2018

# ? Oct 13, 2018 16:05

UltimoDragonQuest: Oct 5, 2011

The Star Wars manga are extremely good and full of detailed art.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 19:24

Nodosaur: Dec 23, 2014

is that an ewok?

# ? Oct 13, 2018 19:34

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Pictured: the last thing hundreds of stormtroopers ever saw:

# ? Oct 13, 2018 19:41

Nina: Oct 9, 2016; Invisible werewolf (entirely visible, not actually a wolf)

jivjov posted:

Unless you want to discuss an ongoing narrative.

I disagree. Canon isn�t needed to discuss an ongoing narrative, only to catalogue it. Some of my favorite discussion on media happens over narrative properties with dubious canonicity

# ? Oct 13, 2018 21:04

Xenomrph: Dec 9, 2005; AvP Nerd/Fanboy/Shill

Nina posted:

I disagree. Canon isn�t needed to discuss an ongoing narrative, only to catalogue it. Some of my favorite discussion on media happens over narrative properties with dubious canonicity

Not even to catalogue it. Like, what difference does that make.

Canon is mildly useful if an author is collaborating with other people on a larger project and the goal is a really tightly-plotted narrative that interweaves across multiple things, and to a lesser degree if authors want to casually reference each other�s work, but if it�s just nominally separate stories then canon can only hinder good storytelling.

Wheat Loaf posted:

Actually here's a post I masturbated out on the subject in the Book Barn Star Wars thread the other day:

Maybe I've got a cynical view of it. I think I'm being realistic.

Here�s some similar articles:

https://medium.com/@My_ComicRelief/we-can-work-it-out-the-needless-nature-of-star-wars-canon-arguments-8d7c8f74486d

I�m trying to track down another really good article, I�ll link it when I find it again.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 22:00

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Xenomrph posted:

Here�s some similar articles:

https://medium.com/@My_ComicRelief/we-can-work-it-out-the-needless-nature-of-star-wars-canon-arguments-8d7c8f74486d

This fella is still a lot less cynical about the whole canon enterprise than I am. :v:

# ? Oct 13, 2018 22:44

Xenomrph: Dec 9, 2005; AvP Nerd/Fanboy/Shill

Wheat Loaf posted:

This fella is still a lot less cynical about the whole canon enterprise than I am.

Don�t worry, the other article I�m tracking down is real cynical. :v:

I used to get in canon debates with members of the AvP community about whether the expanded universe is canon, now I get in different canon debates about whether canon matters at all. :suicide:

The AvP �canon� is such a nonsense mess that changes constantly that it�s truly meaningless. Like, Fox will come down from on high and say �everything from THIS POINT FORWARD is canon�, and then 2 years later Ridley Scott will release a movie that not only contradicts some of the �new canon� materials, but contradicts his own earlier movies.
Not to mention very little individual Alien/Predator stuff connects with anything else on a narrative level.

Nothing matters, enjoy what you want, ignore what you don�t.

That said, I�m a hypocrite because I get mildly annoyed when old Star Wars stuff I liked gets definitively contradicted (Keyan Farlander is no longer the lone surviving Y-wing pilot from the Battle of Yavin), especially when it�s an unnecessary change (again, Farlander), and I get a mild thrill when old EU stuff is �made canon� again (Dash Rendar, the old Han Solo adventures, the old Lando Calrissian adventures, Teras Kasi).

# ? Oct 13, 2018 23:12

site: Apr 6, 2007; Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch

Xenomrph posted:

Don’t worry, the other article I’m tracking down is real cynical.

I used to get in canon debates with members of the AvP community about whether the expanded universe is canon, now I get in different canon debates about whether canon matters at all.

The AvP “canon” is such a nonsense mess that changes constantly that it’s truly meaningless. Like, Fox will come down from on high and say “everything from THIS POINT FORWARD is canon”, and then 2 years later Ridley Scott will release a movie that not only contradicts some of the “new canon” materials, but contradicts his own earlier movies.
Not to mention very little individual Alien/Predator stuff connects with anything else on a narrative level.

Nothing matters, enjoy what you want, ignore what you don’t.

That said, I’m a hypocrite because I get mildly annoyed when old Star Wars stuff I liked gets definitively contradicted (Keyan Farlander is no longer the lone surviving Y-wing pilot from the Battle of Yavin), especially when it’s an unnecessary change (again, Farlander), and I get a mild thrill when old EU stuff is “made canon” again (Dash Rendar, the old Han Solo adventures, the old Lando Calrissian adventures, Teras Kasi).

I think this maybe the only place i can drop this in long after the fact but i enjoyed your LPs

# ? Oct 13, 2018 23:22

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Xenomrph posted:

Don�t worry, the other article I�m tracking down is real cynical.

Well, I'm keen to read it if you find it.

quote:

Nothing matters, enjoy what you want, ignore what you don�t.

Yeah, exactly.

# ? Oct 13, 2018 23:27

Endless Mike: Aug 13, 2003

I don't know how anyone over the age of 12 can read a Kevin J. Anderson book and be upset that it's not canon.

Oh wait it's just American Dracula nm

# ? Oct 14, 2018 02:34

Xenomrph: Dec 9, 2005; AvP Nerd/Fanboy/Shill

site posted:

I think this maybe the only place i can drop this in long after the fact but i enjoyed your LPs

Thanks! I wish I still had the raw video files so I could reupload them to YouTube, but they were on a hard drive that failed. Part of me wants to remake them, but I don�t have the same free time I had 10 years ago. :sigh:

Wheat Loaf posted:

Well, I'm keen to read it if you find it.

Yeah, exactly.

Found it:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/04/enough-with-the-true-canon/477837/

# ? Oct 14, 2018 03:47

Wheat Loaf: Feb 13, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Xenomrph posted:

Found it:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/04/enough-with-the-true-canon/477837/

It is interesting. At the same time, I don't think it necessarily goes to my thesis that canon is fundamentally about marketing far more than it is about narrative and fans - whether they're fans of Star Wars, Marvel, DC, Star Trek, Avatar or whatever else - have never realised how thoroughly and how easily they've been taken in by it.

(And on top of that, I note the date, because we're basically at the point where you can't avoid splitting these analyses of Star Wars fandom into "pre-Last Jedi" and "post-Last Jedi" because it's like loving Year Zero or something at this stage, isn't it?)

# ? Oct 14, 2018 10:06

alpha_destroy: Mar 23, 2010; Billy Butler: Fat Guy by Day, Doubles Machine by Night

What separates literature from (il)literature? Is the distinction formal or social? Despite common assumptions the split is not between written and oral traditions nor between consumption by the educated and and by the masses. The difference comes down to the status of retellings. With its proliferation of retellings and celebration of contradictory origin stories we can definitively say that comics are modern day instantiations of myth making and are therefore the highest form of (il)literature. In this paper I will

# ? Oct 14, 2018 23:13

Norwegian Rudo: May 9, 2013

Nodosaur posted:

is that an ewok?

I'm wondering what Paddington Bear is doing there...

# ? Oct 15, 2018 11:44

Comfortador: Jul 31, 2003; Just give me all the 3ggs_n_b4con you have.

Wait...wait.

I worry what you just heard was...
"Give me a lot of b4con_n_3ggs."

What I said was...
"Give me all the 3ggs_n_b4con you have"

...Do you understand?

Norwegian Rudo posted:

I'm wondering what Paddington Bear is doing there...

Maybe it's a poorly drawn Berbil and we're experiencing a Thundercats crossover.

# ? Oct 15, 2018 15:17

OhFunny: Jun 26, 2013; EXTREMELY PISSED AT THE DNC

A younger me might have cared about canon, but all I really care about now is having an enjoyable story to read. Weather it's about a Star War or superheroes or something else.

Bummed about the Vader series news.

# ? Oct 16, 2018 06:51

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

Tales From Vader's Castle continues to be "Fun goosebumps-esque tales surrounded by a framing story I don't quite connect with". I'm hoping it all pays off in the end...

Fortress Vader, on the other hand, is actually paying off the concept of "The origin story of that lava castle". Honestly surprised I'm enjoying it as much as I am.

Soule also confirmed on Twitter that a 25 issue run was the plan from the beginning; so much like the first Marvel Darth Vader series, it is ending where the writer wants it to.

jivjov fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Oct 17, 2018

# ? Oct 17, 2018 22:43

enigmahfc: Oct 10, 2003; EFF TEE DUB!!
EFF TEE DUB!!

I sort of hate this "Vader builds a house" arc. Like, I think Vader having a castle is pretty dumb anyway, but the last thing I wanted was "Property Brothers: Sith Edition". The terrible sub-Final Fantasy looking Sith artist is dumb as balls. This could all have been done in maybe 2 issues, but why not draw it the gently caress out. This is the worst tendency of Star Wars EU.

It extra-sucks because everything before this was so loving good, but the series is going out with a lumpy fart.

# ? Oct 18, 2018 22:29

Sentinel Red: Nov 13, 2007; Style > Content.

Holy crap at the reveal in Aphra #25, that was hilarious. And deliciously cruel, especially with that parting burn.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 19:32

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

Sentinel Red posted:

Holy crap at the reveal in Aphra #25, that was hilarious. And deliciously cruel, especially with that parting burn.

Yeah, this issue was "everything Aphra has ever done coming back to bite her in the rear end" and it was glorious.

# ? Oct 25, 2018 21:11

site: Apr 6, 2007; Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch

i havent read any sw comics since that one aphra/main sw crossover where luke and aphra have to go to some crime lady's tower. anybody have an idea of how far back that was so i can start reading again

# ? Oct 25, 2018 22:59

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

site posted:

i havent read any sw comics since that one aphra/main sw crossover where luke and aphra have to go to some crime lady's tower. anybody have an idea of how far back that was so i can start reading again

That was Screaming Citadel; it consisted of its own one-shot, Star Wars 31-32, and Aphra 7-8

# ? Oct 25, 2018 23:06

site: Apr 6, 2007; Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch

ty ty

# ? Oct 25, 2018 23:11

Endless Mike: Aug 13, 2003

Be careful reading further in Aphra, you might exposed to girls kissing...each other!

# ? Oct 26, 2018 01:16

Jerkface: May 21, 2001; HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE DEAD, MOTHERFUCKER?; Fallen Rib

i love the current art on Aphra. I want an animated aphra show.

# ? Oct 30, 2018 07:16

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# ? May 17, 2024 09:27

Sentinel Red: Nov 13, 2007; Style > Content.

I'd be up for that if she delivers an old skool moral of the story at the end of each ep.

"Remember kids, always make sure that you've got a patsy handily placed to take the rap for you while you make a getaway with your ill gotten gains."

# ? Oct 30, 2018 11:47

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > BSS: Bisexual Super Son > STAR WARS -- I Am Altering The Canon. Pray I Don't Alter It Any Further

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