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The Dawi have and forever will be pain in the rear end brick shithouses to deal with, they will be just fine. I need to see the Queen Bess in action though, like right now CA
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Oct 16, 2018 00:35
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Arghy posted:I hate the power creep, dawi are supposed to be the powder kings yet they're clearly going to get owned in a powder fight against pirates. You are not gonna have a good time when the Chaos Dorks roster is revealed.
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Oct 16, 2018 00:35
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Everyone seems to be overestimating the amount of armor dawi get, rangers for example only get ~45 armor with poo poo move speed that's literally one of the fastest in the roster. The problem is game 2 races have a ton of units with physical resist that's the exact same armor value as most dawi ranged units. The fact is everyone also rocks a ton of AP because why wouldn't you meaning every advantage you get is mitigated very readily--lets not get into the fact that there's numerous options for also lowering that armor via magic. I play a poo poo load of dawi in campaign and in vanilla they get owned constantly because of the lack of magic. Empire for example is far better due to magic and cav. The problem with dawi is you need to bunch up and the measly 25% magic resist doesn't do poo poo when every unit is so out classed to begin with. The only race worse off than dawi is green skins but the waaagh fixed a lot of problems allowing a low tier army to punch above its weight. There's some massive power creep in play and in MP its very obvious with the race limits they've added--i can tell you green skins and dawi are never included on race limits during matches.
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Oct 16, 2018 00:37
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Rangers are like the least armoured Dwarf units, yeah, but even Miners have 80 armour. They also have extremely high LD across the board, and can win grindy battles because of it. I don't think they'll ever be top tier because lack of cavalry is just really tough in a TW game, and Gyrocopters aren't the best alternatives. I'm interested to see the Vampire Coast vs Dwarf matchup in mp.
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Oct 16, 2018 00:43
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I think Vampire Coast might struggle VS Dwarves because high number squishy infantry is the Blasting Charges wet dream and having piles and piles of Zombies is kinda asking for it.
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Oct 16, 2018 00:51
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Arghy posted:I play a poo poo load of dawi in campaign and in vanilla they get owned constantly because of the lack of magic. Empire for example is far better due to magic and cav. The problem with dawi is you need to bunch up and the measly 25% magic resist doesn't do poo poo when every unit is so out classed to begin with. The only race worse off than dawi is green skins but the waaagh fixed a lot of problems allowing a low tier army to punch above its weight. Dawi in campaign are beaten only if your ranged runs out of ammo. Its rare the AI gathers enough chaff together to overwhelm you. Yeah, they don't have any way to delete huge numbers of units like magic-using factions do (like seriously, Shadows and Life are battle deciders against the dippy AI) but dwarf infantry is stout enough to hold while your ranged just destroys. You could probably go to end-game against a lot of armies with a maxed out lord with DW and crossbowmen. Greenskins (with wurrzag) are a hugely competitive MP faction. Black orcs are like a top 3 infantry unit, they can box with chosen!
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Oct 16, 2018 00:57
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The day they nerf Black Orcs is the day I scream and weep like a child. What makes Wurrzag popular? His ability to pin commanders?
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Oct 16, 2018 00:59
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Dandywalken posted:The day they nerf Black Orcs is the day I scream and weep like a child. Bone wood staff, Effigy, mobility & decent combatant on the baconator, orc magic is decent
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Oct 16, 2018 01:02
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Arghy posted:Everyone seems to be overestimating the amount of armor dawi get, rangers for example only get ~45 armor with poo poo move speed that's literally one of the fastest in the roster. The problem is game 2 races have a ton of units with physical resist that's the exact same armor value as most dawi ranged units. The fact is everyone also rocks a ton of AP because why wouldn't you meaning every advantage you get is mitigated very readily--lets not get into the fact that there's numerous options for also lowering that armor via magic. There have been a lot of new units with physical resist, that is true. And Dwarves don't have a whole lot of options in terms of magic damage; all I can think of is crafted stuff for your lords and the T5 building Belegar can put in Karak 8 peaks that gives all your armies magic damage in the region, but even that is limited. C&C at least has it be an arms race where some units can take an inordinate amount of physical resist (Volkmar Flagellants) but most races get a lord skill or two to give their punchy units magical weapons. In the case of Dwarves one of these is Slayers are excellent for having magical attacks.
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Oct 16, 2018 01:02
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It would be nice if the theory of "AP units do less damage to unarmored units" actually was held to so a theoretical high-tier unit could be non-AP but instead just had a fuckton of damage on it. Having AP is pretty much only upside, no significant downside. Doing this might make armor actually a touch more useful too.
Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 01:05
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Ravenfood posted:It would be nice if the theory of "AP units do less damage to unarmored units" actually was held to so a theoretical high-tier unit could be non-AP but instead just had a fuckton of damage on it. Having AP is pretty much only upside, no significant downside. I agree. Swordsmen should be better at beating unarmored units than greatswords, but greatswords should be better at beating armored units. It'd give low/mid-tier units value over time. As it is without unit quotas, there's no reason to have swordsmen in an army past turn 50.
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Oct 16, 2018 01:08
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That's why i love C&C because they buff T1 units where normally mid/late game you'd never use them which is just a goddamn shame. In vanilla at least the empire swordsmen are a great bread and butter unit until you run up against chaos then its just everything go AP. The problem with armor being your factions 'thing' is everyone gets AP units with good armor and they also get faction flavor on top of that. Experience making T1 units into beasts is such a good idea and coupled with an elite unit cap it just makes a ton of sense. Everyones also really over estimating dawi ranged units forgetting they have a low model count so it doesn't matter if they block a measly 35% of ranged damage when they start losing models they begin to become very combat ineffective considering they don't have options like cav and magic to exploit the damage trade. Dawi should be king of hybrid infantry with barely any notice between the 2 because they don't have the numbers to be specialists--lower the ammo count so you get a crazy utility army but you'll eventually need to just collapse into a melee grinder. I'd also love some goddamn global magic resist runes like shield of the old ones--oh poo poo someones casting fate on one of your units? hit that magic resist rune to mitigate the damage!
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Oct 16, 2018 01:53
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Stop calling them Dawi unless you're gonna post entirely in Dwarven imo
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Oct 16, 2018 02:05
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Never.
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Oct 16, 2018 02:08
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Arghy posted:That's why i love C&C because they buff T1 units where normally mid/late game you'd never use them which is just a goddamn shame. In vanilla at least the empire swordsmen are a great bread and butter unit until you run up against chaos then its just everything go AP. The problem with armor being your factions 'thing' is everyone gets AP units with good armor and they also get faction flavor on top of that. Experience making T1 units into beasts is such a good idea and coupled with an elite unit cap it just makes a ton of sense. The reason people are mad at dwarves is not because they don't know to cast spells on them, it's because you generally have to build your army entirely around fighting dwarves to win most of the evil Old World campaigns or even just stop the dawifest destiny, and t1 units are worse than taking nothing at all against both dwarves and lizardmen, because nothing doesn't cost upkeep and does the same amount of damage. Setting aside any other lazy bullshit, like half a stack of t1/t2 dwarves with no commander being rated as an equal auto-resolve fight against a 20-stack of virtually anything in vanilla
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Oct 16, 2018 02:17
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Wafflecopper posted:Stop calling them Dawi unless you're gonna post entirely in Dwarven imo *khazalid, umgi umgak post
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Oct 16, 2018 02:18
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Sodomy Hussein posted:The reason people are mad at dwarves is not because they don't know to cast spells on them, it's because you generally have to build your army entirely around fighting dwarves to win most of the evil Old World campaigns or even just stop the dawifest destiny, and t1 units are worse than taking nothing at all against both dwarves and lizardmen, because nothing doesn't cost upkeep and does the same amount of damage. The auto resolve thing is purposeful by CA to encourage the ai to engage with the players armies. If auto resolve were accurate, the ai would spend 95% of the campaign fleeing the player instead of the current 85% I encourage you to play with the the mod that removes minor settlement walls.
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Oct 16, 2018 02:22
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Arghy posted:That's why i love C&C because they buff T1 units where normally mid/late game you'd never use them which is just a goddamn shame. In vanilla at least the empire swordsmen are a great bread and butter unit until you run up against chaos then its just everything go AP. The problem with armor being your factions 'thing' is everyone gets AP units with good armor and they also get faction flavor on top of that. Experience making T1 units into beasts is such a good idea and coupled with an elite unit cap it just makes a ton of sense. You seem real bad at dwarves considering they're basically unstoppable in Vanilla and like 80% of campaigns have them painting the map lol.
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Oct 16, 2018 02:22
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:*khazalid, umgi
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Oct 16, 2018 02:29
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the dwarves are extremely strong through vanilla, their early units are more than a match for anyone elses early units, and by the time everyone else has armour piercing units the dwarves have flamethrowers, torpedos, helicopters, and the best artillery in the game. edit: im kind of bummed out that noctilus, the guy who got awesome magic power from the ocean, doesnt get access to the lore of the deep. vampire and shadow lore are boooring juggalo baby coffin fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 02:30
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C&C definitely does some interesting things for Dwarves. There's actually a point to taking Miners because they can either be sneaky or get good replenishment. Warriors don't get outclassed by Longbeards because you can pick an offensive set of skills for one and defensive for the other (this makes the great weapon versions more useful). Missile units can give up some ranged bonuses to be more durable in melee. Giant Slayers definitely feel like a capstone unit. And all gunpowder units reduce enemy shield block, making them great vs elves.
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Oct 16, 2018 02:54
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Ammanas posted:The auto resolve thing is purposeful by CA to encourage the ai to engage with the players armies. If auto resolve were accurate, the ai would spend 95% of the campaign fleeing the player instead of the current 85% That doesn't really change that it's lazy, and it leads directly to a dwarf infestation on 60-70% of the old world in every game. There also comes a time, and it's pretty early on, where I want to move along and not play through every dwarf battle in the game with my doomstack. Name Change fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 02:59
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Install Green Iz Best and enjoy a massive hellwar against a gigantic orc empire
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Oct 16, 2018 03:04
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Wafflecopper posted:Stop calling them Dawi unless you're gonna post entirely in Dwarven imo there’s no need for that, but I will point out that GW is very clear that it’s Dwarfs not Dwarves
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Oct 16, 2018 03:08
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Ammanas posted:Install Green Iz Best and enjoy a massive hellwar against a gigantic orc empire This guy gets it. WH40k has things where they send a probe out way beyond the galaxy and all they pick up are orks doing poo poo. Fantasy isn't far off-- green is the natural end of all things
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Oct 16, 2018 03:12
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if they're at all comparable to the tabletop army list, vampire coast infantry will have garbage reload times reflecting that they're zombies and getting semisentient rotten undead flesh to do reloads on blackpowder weaponry is drat hard iirc, in the tabletop, the basic zombie deckhand mob that had guns got to shoot once per battle outside of queen bess - which is a one of - i don't see vampire coast artillery being threatening above and beyond what you'd see in an empire army
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Oct 16, 2018 03:21
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jokes posted:This guy gets it. WH40k has things where they send a probe out way beyond the galaxy and all they pick up are orks doing poo poo. Fantasy isn't far off-- green is the natural end of all things https://youtu.be/5UQFvqLGXVU?t=27
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Oct 16, 2018 03:22
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Think you mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whxcq4I0kAo
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Oct 16, 2018 04:25
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Mordja posted:Think you mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whxcq4I0kAo Sorry you linked the wrong video https://youtu.be/d0uBU5ddX4U
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Oct 16, 2018 04:33
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So are all the pirate factions working against on le another?
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Oct 16, 2018 06:39
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Aurubin posted:So are all the pirate factions working against on le another? I'd assume not, as that would leave you unable to complete the magic sea shanty if one of the other factions died to another AI.
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Oct 16, 2018 06:59
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Arghy posted:There's some massive power creep in play and in MP its very obvious with the race limits they've added--i can tell you green skins and dawi are never included on race limits during matches. GS were sort of weak for a while but you see them often now that waaagh is in. Dwarfs were poo poo for a bit due to getting too easily demolished by chariots but they're seen often enough now. Both are considered mid-tier and can compete with any race. The races I've seen described as bottom tier are skaven and lizardmen.
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Oct 16, 2018 07:00
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Tiler Kiwi posted:GS were sort of weak for a while but you see them often now that waaagh is in. Dwarfs were poo poo for a bit due to getting too easily demolished by chariots but they're seen often enough now. Both are considered mid-tier and can compete with any race. The races I've seen described as bottom tier are skaven and lizardmen. Described by who? both factions are incredibly competitive.
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Oct 16, 2018 07:04
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queef anxiety posted:Described by who? both factions are incredibly competitive. Only formalized one I know is DahvPlays: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/198ixaIumGqcicTLjoUftlvPtbEW7kskIK2D3V9djGIg/edit#gid=0, but if you look around a bit its generally agreed that both factions have problems. You can still win as these factions vs other ones since tiers aren't that deterministic, but they have glaring limitations. Lizardmen have to contend with the rampage mechanic and have mediocre cavalry and ranged, and skaven have to rely on rat ogres to prevent getting crushed by cavalry and are generally lacking in mobility and mid ranged AP fire. Even their artillery has issues where they don't do well in arty duels and can be blown up in a variety of dickish ways. They're both also rather predictable in what they're gonna bring, which sucks when trying to contend with things like high elves who can bring a wide variety of army types. e: On the high end, Gobbo Kings latest tourney had the rule restriction that you had to pick one out of four factions at the start and were barred from using the other three, to allow some more variety in picks. Those four were VC, Chaos, High Elfs, and Dark Elfs. VC is kind of odd in that their complete lack of ranged ought to be a big flaw but they have some nasty loving cavalry, and properly used heavy cav with healing can slaughter around infinite infantry. Tiler Kiwi fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 07:28
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I'd like to know the Vampirates' victory condition, and whether it's plausible to play as two of them in a coop campaign. I know they're looking for something shiny, and that sounds like you'll be stepping on each other's toes all the way.
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Oct 16, 2018 10:01
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I know some of those unit mods like to add in some nonsense but seriously bitching about vanilla dwarves not having both guns and magic and move & shoot is kind of dumb considering the fact that quarrelers and thunders have like 100 armor and shields and Bugmans rangers have loving regeneration and shields. In a pound for pound 1 on 1 shootfight between a unit of thunderers and pretty much any other ranged infantry unit barring micromanaged waywatchers and darkshards the dwarves will win to a hillariously laughable degree. Dwarf rune magic is kind of not great but it's also tied to a caster that has a shitload of armor and can also pop cooldowns for extra damage resist for not only himself but for everything around him too. Dwarves also get magic resist across the board that no other race gets. Give Zombie gunners 100 armor and shields and 20% magic resist and maybe I'd be cool with giving dwarves wider access to magic and slayer pistol pirates or whatever.
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Oct 16, 2018 10:38
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https://twitter.com/totalwar/status/1052152189962121216 LORE OF THE DEEP CAN SUMMON A loving GHOST SHIP THAT FIRES CANNONBALLS POINT BLANK INTO ENEMIES!!! Edit:  I MEAN HOLY poo poo LOOK AT THIS!! Gejnor fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 12:03
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Gejnor posted:https://twitter.com/totalwar/status/1052152189962121216 Hailin' the might pretty hard ATM!
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Oct 16, 2018 12:45
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Gejnor posted:https://twitter.com/totalwar/status/1052152189962121216  CA has been really on point with this DLC.
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Oct 16, 2018 12:53
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Dwarves need to be relatively weak because they are the "low-micro, arrange your battlelines and let the enemy throw themselves at you" faction. If other factions that require more skill to use can't beat that, then that's pretty bad for balance. Also Dwarves aren't the gunpowder race in the lore anyway. They may have invented the stuff but kinda the point is that they are held back by their traditionalism, which is why the Empire is pretty close/already has overtaken them, and why Skaven and Chaos Dwarves can outshoot them. The real core of the dwarves is their excellent heavy infantry and quarrellers in the early game.
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Oct 16, 2018 13:06
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