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Comics shift tones so often that it's hard to say what's "permanent" but after Superboy Prime's return from obscurity in the aughts he's been, as far as I know, pretty solidly villainous. Eric O'Grady was created, presumably, as a particularly skeevy take on the anti-hero but a "good guy" nonetheless but has since settled into a role as a lighthearted but definitely villainous scumbag often teamed up with Taskmaster. This one is iffy, and he's been all over the map since then, but I'd also say that prior to a pretty sudden turn near the beginning of Simonson's New Mutants Magneto was on a fairly straightforward arc towards being a goodguy. I haven't kept up with X-Men comics in the past few years but Evan Sabah Nur's whole schtick was teasing a will-he won't-he re: a potential shift towards evil. Spoilers for the most recent arc of X-23 but Esme Cuckoo has progressed from minor "good" supporting character to flat-out villain. If you're counting bad guys who temporarily turned good before being reverted to type there are a lot more examples. Sandman, Juggernaut, Dr. Doom, Superior Spidey/Doc Ock, Riddler, Bane (sort of?) and even Baron Zemo had fairly extended stints as protagonists before their character development was rolled back to the status quo, not to mention part-time anti-heroes like Constrictor, Daken, Sabretooth, Mystique, and "edgier" Bat-family members like Jason Todd and Azrael who had prominent antagonist moments.
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Oct 14, 2018 21:45
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I'm thinking Ultimates, Spider-Man, X-Men, Fantastic Four, and fun stuff like Team-Up. Not everything is gold but is their any comic universe with multiple creators where everything is. I mean poo poo, even when Marvel was basically just Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko there's some stinkers.
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Oct 14, 2018 21:49
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Didn't ultimate reed literally nuke Washington DC and destroy like half of Europe to build his bubble world during Hickman's run on avengers
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Oct 14, 2018 22:03
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site posted:Didn't ultimate reed literally nuke Washington DC and like half of Europe during Hickman's run on avengers Yup, but he was already a bad guy, there was that Ultimate Doom mini.
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Oct 14, 2018 22:05
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remusclaw posted:I bought into the Ultimates Universe pretty hard, having started reading it after picking up this huge Barnes and Nobles Hardcover of like the first 6 U-Spider-Man arcs. That said, I really dont look on it as a whole very fondly, even the good stuff seems really mean spirited at times and Jeph Loeb's stories took what was already feeling tired and pretty much killed the whole thing for me, by amping up that mean spiritredness by a hundred fold. I'll always remember Jeph Loeb as the one going "Ha ha! Incest CONFIRMED!" and having Ultimate Wasp act like it was the sweetest thing ever.
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Oct 14, 2018 22:38
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Archyduke posted:
That one really bothered me because I got into comics in the early 90s, and Spectacular Spider-Man was extremely my jam. That was right around the time Sandman was working with Silver Sable and became a reserve avenger, and his redemption arc was a pretty solid one. But no, had to go back to being a villain.
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Oct 14, 2018 22:38
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Medullah posted:That one really bothered me because I got into comics in the early 90s, and Spectacular Spider-Man was extremely my jam. That was right around the time Sandman was working with Silver Sable and became a reserve avenger, and his redemption arc was a pretty solid one. But no, had to go back to being a villain. Yeah, turning him evil again was pretty stupid and pointless, and in the context of the story in which it happened, just pointlessly cruel. I like that for the past few years they've generally used him as a guy with pretty bad luck who just sort of keeps falling into lovely situations and letting his temper get the best of him, who could have been good if things had been a little different. I'd prefer him to just be good-- he was a reserve Avenger!-- but whatever. Chip Zdarsky wrote him pretty well in the last arc of his recently finished Spider-Man series.
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Oct 14, 2018 22:43
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Sandman shifting back to villain was one of the products of John Byrne's "JUST AS THE ORIGINAL CREATORS INTENDED!  " phase, iirc.Of course, how could someone with similar looking hair to Norman Osborn be anything but a villain?
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Oct 14, 2018 22:43
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Didn't Wonder Man start up some anti-Avengers squad or Revengers or something or was that some terrible dream I had? Might have been tied to Dark Avengers somehow? I assume he got spanked and took his ball and went home.
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Oct 14, 2018 22:49
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Dawgstar posted:I'll always remember Jeph Loeb as the one going "Ha ha! Incest CONFIRMED!" and having Ultimate Wasp act like it was the sweetest thing ever. Mean spirited comics hurt my feelings. More than any other bad work of fiction.
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Oct 15, 2018 00:09
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I feel like the general direction of the Ultimate Universe was, aside from Spider-Man, to take each character, identify their worst traits or most uncharitable reading, and make that their defining characterization. Everyone was a prick, all the time.
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Oct 15, 2018 00:16
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Inkspot posted:Didn't Wonder Man start up some anti-Avengers squad or Revengers or something or was that some terrible dream I had? Might have been tied to Dark Avengers somehow? I assume he got spanked and took his ball and went home. It was like a 2-issue (or maybe just one annual? I forget) thing in the post-Dark Reign final run of Bendis' Avengers. Also featuring out-of-loving-nowhere appearances by D-Man and Anti-Venom*! Of course this was all forgotten, as it was awful. *And Brock had lost his Anti-Venom powers months prior to that issue as part of the Spider-Island event, which made the issue extra stupid, since you already know he's not coming back when they put all the dudes away and they go "I'll be back!" TwoPair fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Oct 15, 2018 |
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Oct 15, 2018 00:24
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Does hank pym merging with ultron count as a heel turn
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Oct 15, 2018 01:53
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Didn't Max Lord start out as a fairly well intentioned guy?
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Oct 15, 2018 02:10
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Retro Futurist posted:Didn't Max Lord start out as a fairly well intentioned guy? Didn't he literally die immediately after his heel turn?
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Oct 15, 2018 02:15
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remusclaw posted:Didn't he literally die immediately after his heel turn? 6 months or so.
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Oct 15, 2018 03:21
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remusclaw posted:Didn't he literally die immediately after his heel turn? He also came back in Brightest Day and had a pretty good story as the villain in Justice League: Generation Lost. My pick for hero going villain is Havoc. Like he's a hero, but he's also been made into a villain (Going to Genoshia, Sixis.) so many times that it feels like it's a natural state for him.
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Oct 15, 2018 07:12
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Warpath of X-Force started as one of the Hellions. They were a villain/rival team to the New Mutants in the 80s.
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Oct 15, 2018 20:34
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Retro Futurist posted:Didn't Max Lord start out as a fairly well intentioned guy? The opposite actually. Max Lord started out as a complete scumlord and it was his interaction with the Justice League that made him start to change. Which is why the retcon makes no fuckin' sense at all but hey.
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Oct 15, 2018 23:26
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Archyduke posted:Comics shift tones so often that it's hard to say what's "permanent" but after Superboy Prime's return from obscurity in the aughts he's been, as far as I know, pretty solidly villainous. Eric O'Grady was created, presumably, as a particularly skeevy take on the anti-hero but a "good guy" nonetheless but has since settled into a role as a lighthearted but definitely villainous scumbag often teamed up with Taskmaster. This one is iffy, and he's been all over the map since then, but I'd also say that prior to a pretty sudden turn near the beginning of Simonson's New Mutants Magneto was on a fairly straightforward arc towards being a goodguy. I haven't kept up with X-Men comics in the past few years but Evan Sabah Nur's whole schtick was teasing a will-he won't-he re: a potential shift towards evil. Spoilers for the most recent arc of X-23 but Esme Cuckoo has progressed from minor "good" supporting character to flat-out villain. Eric o’grady is a ldm right now. He was killed in secret avengers and replaced
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Oct 16, 2018 14:14
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Looking back, I don't think Ultimate Reed Richards went from good to bad. It's more like he went from nebbish autistic kid lacking empathy and human emotions to bad. It's not much of a leap.
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Oct 16, 2018 19:03
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Reed was clearly a good guy for the entire run of Ultimate FF. They put in some retroactive flashbacks into the story when he turned bad that didn’t exist before to try and bridge that gap but during the actual series he never did anything that would make you think he was a villain in waiting because he was never supposed to be.
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Oct 16, 2018 19:08
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X-O posted:Reed was clearly a good guy for the entire run of Ultimate FF. They put in some retroactive flashbacks into the story when he turned bad that didn’t exist before to try and bridge that gap but during the actual series he never did anything that would make you think he was a villain in waiting because he was never supposed to be. Oh, I'm not saying his face/heel turn was planned far ahead of time. I just don't think Ultimate Reed was ever the upright, paragon of virtue that his 616 counterpart is. He was written to be more alien and less likely to relate directly to other people. He was basically Elon Musk -- arguably a force for good with a nagging lack of empathy for others. But of course that might just be the "everybody is significantly more lovely" effect that the Ultimate line had on all characters except Spider-Man.
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Oct 16, 2018 19:49
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ecavalli posted:Looking back, I don't think Ultimate Reed Richards went from good to bad. It's more like he went from nebbish autistic kid lacking empathy and human emotions to bad. It's not much of a leap. He was definitely not autistic.
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Oct 16, 2018 20:08
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Lurdiak posted:He was definitely not autistic. Yeah, thanks for bringing this up. I hate it when I feel like I'm lapsing into being the finger-wagging school-marm of BSS but the internet's broadly flippant and pejorative use of autism always bugs me. Ultimate Reed was a prick, beyond that I don't really care to link any disorders this fictional character may or may not have with his turn towards being a villain. I've had autistic students from various points on the spectrum and I'd never say any of their difficulties with affect or reading other people made them any more petty, cruel, or mean than neurotypical students, and the archetype of the calculating, sociopathic "autistic" bad-guy is no less crude and problematic than out-moded tropes of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder as similar markers of "evil" or "dangerous" mental difference.
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Oct 16, 2018 20:37
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Archyduke posted:Yeah, thanks for bringing this up. I hate it when I feel like I'm lapsing into being the finger-wagging school-marm of BSS but the internet's broadly flippant and pejorative use of autism always bugs me. Ultimate Reed was a prick, beyond that I don't really care to link any disorders this fictional character may or may not have with his turn towards being a villain. I've had autistic students from various points on the spectrum and I'd never say any of their difficulties with affect or reading other people made them any more petty, cruel, or mean than neurotypical students, and the archetype of the calculating, sociopathic "autistic" bad-guy is no less crude and problematic than out-moded tropes of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder as similar markers of "evil" or "dangerous" mental difference. That's valid. I apologize. "Autism" was insensitive shorthand. Ultimate Reed is merely an overly analytical genius whose talents make it difficult for him to relate to normal people.
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Oct 16, 2018 21:22
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ecavalli posted:
I think this might be it. Did Ult. Reed heel turn have anything to do with all the awful things that happened to the Ult Universe post Ultimates 3? Or was it completely unrelated?
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Oct 17, 2018 04:54
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Uh iirc yes and no in that ultimate future sue, or a fake sue, or something, was revealed to be conspiring with both Reed to become a genocidal maniac, and doom to convince magneto to do ultimatum
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Oct 17, 2018 04:59
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Has it come out that there was actually a plan for the ultimate universe? They really swept the board clean of a lot of the more traditional characters so were they going to use it for new, original characters or something?
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Oct 17, 2018 11:07
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Ult Reed went evil when Sue broke up with him leaving him with no morale compass and teen angst, much later it was retconned that a future Kang, who was Susan Storm set up everything for some reason.
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Oct 17, 2018 13:20
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Sinners Sandwich posted:Ult Reed went evil when Sue broke up with him leaving him with no morale compass and teen angst, much later it was retconned that a future Kang, who was Susan Storm set up everything for some reason. Not a bad plan, whenever you write yourself into a corner just go “eh, Kang did it”, and any plot holes get lost in the morass of, well, literally everything else to do with him.
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Oct 18, 2018 00:01
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I have a few semi-urgent questions about Marvel Unlimited, which I've never subscribed to before, but may have to. 1. Does it only contain single issues, or trade paperbacks and hardcover collections as well? 2. Does it include the indicia pages for the individual issues (copyright, publication date, etc.)? 3. Does it include page numbers for the individual issues? I ask because almost my entire collection is in TPB format, and they almost never include the page numbers for the original issues. Most of the time, the TPBs don't include any pagination at all. 4. Are you able to print, save, or take screen shots of individual pages? Thank you all!
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Oct 18, 2018 05:10
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1. Single issues. There is some collection of story arc/events so that you can have a reading order of what would normally be collected in a trade, but you're still reading through singles to do so. 2. No. There is publishing information available through the comic info, but not the original printed pages. 3. There is a view to see all the pages as thumbnails which will also give you the page number for them. 4. There is no native supported way of doing so, but it also isn't blocked in any way - I take screenshots on my iPad and do printscreens on the PC all the time.
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Oct 18, 2018 05:23
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Ghostlight posted:1. Single issues. There is some collection of story arc/events so that you can have a reading order of what would normally be collected in a trade, but you're still reading through singles to do so. Thank you! That was extremely helpful. If you're scrolling through pages and run your cursor over them or click somewhere, would it show you the page number that way (like 7/22), as in some PDF documents? Also, do you know if "Snipping Tool" would work for screen shots as well?
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Oct 18, 2018 05:38
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The UI will show you how far through the comic you are but not display the actual page number (you can click the thumbnail view at any time and the page you were on is highlighted) - the UI also automatically hides itself while you're reading so you need to tap/click to bring it back up. Snipping tool works fine.
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Oct 18, 2018 06:01
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MU has trade paperbacks but I believe the only ones they have were originally printed that way. Not TPBs that merely collect stories that were originally seperate monthly issues.
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Oct 18, 2018 12:28
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why don't super inventors such as reed richards find a cure for cancer? with all those fancy inventions, humanity would managed to reach the stars in a matter of years.
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Oct 18, 2018 13:58
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Mr Fantastic already did, the cure was to shrink tiny get on an equally tiny submarine and shoot lasers at it until it's gone, for further details please look in medical journals refering to the patient W.Lumpkin. It's not Reed's fault that most healthcare insurance won't cover it. Agent_grey fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 14:04
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Fruity20 posted:why don't super inventors such as reed richards find a cure for cancer? with all those fancy inventions, humanity would managed to reach the stars in a matter of years. They don't want to cure cancer, they want to turn people into dinosaurs.
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Oct 18, 2018 14:05
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I remember they did a storyline where Supergirl tried to cure cancer, how did that turn out?
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Oct 18, 2018 14:16
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