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again, it's trying to serve two masters. some students are going to school to learn computer science and eventually get an advanced degree in the field and find a job at adobe creating new image processing algorithms. other students are going to school to learn to CRUSH CODE and make skinner box phone games or web portals for carpet salesmen. nearly every field has the same problem of balancing pure science/research with teaching practical skills within a limited timeframe. there is no single good solution. a seemingly obvious strategy is to split it into an academic stream and a professional stream -- perhaps the university teaches computer science, with the understanding that your bachelor's degree won't cover the hottest new frameworks, while the community college does the equivalent of coding bootcamps but skips the advanced math. but stupid elitists (googlers, parents, etc) inevitably turn it into the smart/dumb stream because they don't get the nuance and so everyone just tries for the academic path even if it's highly ill-suited to their goals or capabilities and we're back to where we started. and even if you could stream the education effectively, you still miss out on a lot of cross-pollination. while i think universities should put a lot more weight on a professor's quality of teaching, i stop short of saying that there should be a pure-teaching path, because bringing research or professional work into the classroom is a lot more interesting than just droning on about topic 101 straight from textbook. if all you do is teach java frameworks all day that's cool but you aren't advancing the state of the art. professors should be creating new ideas and then teaching those to the students -- but that in itself is a huge challenge. sometimes one person can't do it by themselves. why, this would be easier if we just had it all under one roof, right? no answers, only attempts Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Oct 16, 2018 |
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Oct 16, 2018 19:42
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really the fundamental problem is wages. you can't get a job that pays a living wage unless you have a bachelor's degree, so everyone has to get one even if it's pointless, so the students complain when their degree was "useless" for the field (that never should have needed one in the first place), so universities bend to that pressure and try to teach practical skills, so that dilutes the pure-academic value of the undergraduate degree, so we have tons more people getting master's degrees if they want to do real academics, so that depresses the pay for people with lower degrees even further, and so on and so on pay people with community college diplomas (and high school diplomas, for that matter) a proper wage and a ton of problems evaporate
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Oct 16, 2018 19:54
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Sagebrush posted:pay people with community college diplomas (and high school diplomas, for that matter) a proper wage and a ton of problems evaporate
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Oct 16, 2018 20:01
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lmao https://twitter.com/adrianhon/status/1051904464406401024
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Oct 16, 2018 20:17
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an ouroborus of stupidity and arrogance
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Oct 16, 2018 20:21
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Sagebrush posted:again, it's trying to serve two masters. some students are going to school to learn computer science and eventually get an advanced degree in the field and find a job at adobe creating new image processing algorithms. other students are going to school to learn to CRUSH CODE and make skinner box phone games or web portals for carpet salesmen. nearly every field has the same problem of balancing pure science/research with teaching practical skills within a limited timeframe. also require them to take some loving humanities classes
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Oct 16, 2018 20:24
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"why do I have to take these stupid humanities classes? literature is stupid and the professor is mean and gives me bad grades and they aren't even going to get me a job anyway" "why are you wasting my son's time making him take humanities classes? I'm paying for his education, I'm the customer, I want the best value for my money" I have had students literally ask me how much more money they're going to make in their career having taken required class X compared to someone who hasn't, and then try to argue their way out of the class on that basis MIT requires, or at least used to require, that every undergraduate student take one physical education class per semester. It can be baseball or track or it can be ultimate frisbee or scuba diving or whatever, but you will get off your rear end and out of the lab and go do something healthy. Even the mega nerds seem to recognize the value of a balanced education
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Oct 16, 2018 20:37
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Endless Mike posted:also require them to take some loving humanities classes Programming is part of the humanities
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Oct 16, 2018 20:38
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fishmech posted:Programming is part of the humanities Programming is a trade skill, actually
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Oct 16, 2018 20:41
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Sagebrush posted:"why do I have to take these stupid humanities classes? literature is stupid and the professor is mean and gives me bad grades and they aren't even going to get me a job anyway" i took archery which was pretty relaxing once we started using the outdoor range. i wanted to do language classes, but every one of them conflicted with core computer engineering classes so i ended up doing a concentration in philosophy. there are few things more annoying than philosophy students. philosophy of technology was interesting but back in 2008 the field wasn't nearly as ripe as it is today; i actually emailed my philosophy of tech prof recently about this and he said his biggest problem is scaling down to just a semester's worth of topics. back when i took it there was poo poo like "cyborgs: good or bad?" but now you could do a whole semester just on google Sagebrush posted:Programming is a trade skill, actually
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Oct 16, 2018 20:41
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Shinku ABOOKEN posted:read the grandma part and ignore the rest. it’s spineless_nerd.txt dont sign my posts
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Oct 16, 2018 20:48
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Pham Nuwen posted:back when i took it there was poo poo like "cyborgs: good or bad?" but now you could do a whole semester just on google
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Oct 16, 2018 21:06
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Sagebrush posted:"why do I have to take these stupid humanities classes? literature is stupid and the professor is mean and gives me bad grades and they aren't even going to get me a job anyway" i mean you're paying an absolutely enormous amount of money for those classes
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Oct 16, 2018 21:15
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Pham Nuwen posted:"cyborgs: good or bad?"
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Oct 16, 2018 21:24
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we're never gonna uphold those bogus treaties
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Oct 16, 2018 21:26
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academic achievement as gatekeeping in the business world is designed so failsons can legacy into an ivy and get a job that may otherwise go to a better qualified candidate who didn't win the uterus lottery
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Oct 16, 2018 22:02
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Sagebrush posted:"why do I have to take these stupid humanities classes? literature is stupid and the professor is mean and gives me bad grades and they aren't even going to get me a job anyway" looking back, i'm legit glad that i went to a school that placed a heavy emphasis on humanities no matter what your major was. if nothing else, it gave me a grounding and continued interest in topics that i probably never would have explored otherwise
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Oct 16, 2018 23:48
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lol @ the vergequote:Why the Pixel matters quote:When the original Pixel was unveiled by Google in October 2016, many questioned why the Mountain View company was entering the business of designing, building, and selling phones. Two years on, that sentiment still lingers, as expressed by Andreessen Horowitz analyst Benedict Evans when he asks, “What purpose do Google’s Pixel phones serve?”
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Oct 16, 2018 23:48
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FMguru posted:lol @ the verge google isn’t in this to make money, you guys. they are trying to prove a point. that point being that they can make a knockoff iPhone except worse in every way except camera benchmarks.
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Oct 17, 2018 01:07
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The Management posted:google isn’t in this to make money, you guys. they are trying to prove a point. that point being that they can make a knockoff iPhone except worse in every way they did that ..um, ten years ago
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infernal machines posted:they did that this time it’s different. it’s a premium phone. you can tell by the price tag
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Oct 17, 2018 01:32
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The_Franz posted:looking back, i'm legit glad that i went to a school that placed a heavy emphasis on humanities no matter what your major was. if nothing else, it gave me a grounding and continued interest in topics that i probably never would have explored otherwise i was a cs major a million years ago and by far the best class i ever took (as a filthy non believer) was Faith and Reason in Christian Thought, taught by a prof of divinity or w/e it was loving fascinating b/c the class was basically a survey of notable theologians from Paul to Hartshorne/Cobb in the format of "this dude wrote/believed abc b/c his unshakable core bedrock tenants of his world view were xyz" and i was like holy poo poo this makes the history of christianity a billion times more interesting than the poo poo i was taught in church when i was a kid
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Oct 17, 2018 02:03
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Oh yays, the utoob is having problems.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:24
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MrMoo posted:Oh yays, the utoob is having problems.
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Oct 17, 2018 02:44
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For context Levandowski is the guy that went on to Uber and prompted the trade secrets stealing lawsuit
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Oct 17, 2018 04:58
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ShadowHawk posted:For context Levandowski is the guy that went on to Uber and prompted the trade secrets stealing lawsuit the company he founded specifically to get bought by uber had a “safety is job #3” poster on the wall
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Oct 17, 2018 06:30
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ShadowHawk posted:For context Levandowski is the guy that went on to Uber and prompted the trade secrets stealing lawsuit that guy is a real
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Oct 17, 2018 11:41
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i read a thing about how google was restricting android developers from pulling users' contacts and emails to third-party improve ads, with the spin that it was google eschewing profits for user privacy like the actual reason isn't to get developers to switch to google ads.
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Oct 17, 2018 14:12
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The Management posted:there’s computer science and there’s software development. different disciplines. college should teach you data structures and algorithms and complexity. that’s computer science. they should then teach you engineering principles to deal with these. yeah my school had a software engineering program and a comp science program. the former was mostly concerned with how you gather requirements and then scope/design/build/maintain an actual system while the latter was the applied mathematics side of programming. obv there was a ton of overlap in the freshman/sophomore classes
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Oct 17, 2018 14:43
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No surprises here but self taught and boot camped engineers generally aren't awesome at data structures and algorithms. Turns out good computer science fundamentals aren't necessary to keep some company's blog online.
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Oct 18, 2018 13:31
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You'd think that self taught engineers would get caught saying stupid things like "let's just make a program that inspects if this code ever terminates" but, again, how often does that come up
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Oct 18, 2018 13:36
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https://i.imgur.com/Q1w2Gx8.gifv
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Oct 18, 2018 14:17
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getting a bachelor's in CS kinda sucks cause it turns out that all that stuff's been done already and what you actually do is use a library. actual value of my degree is, uh, I can spot o(n^2) loops pretty good. i bought some algo books a while back just in case i needed to do some work where it wasn't immediately apparent what library to use, and nope. have never needed them
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Oct 18, 2018 14:17
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Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:getting a bachelor's in CS kinda sucks cause it turns out that all that stuff's been done already and what you actually do is use a library. actual value of my degree is, uh, I can spot o(n^2) loops pretty good. i bought some algo books a while back just in case i needed to do some work where it wasn't immediately apparent what library to use, and nope. have never needed them getting a bachelors in anything boils down to learning stuff that's already been done. even a masters is usually just adding a few courses on top of a bachelors. e: it's even worse in the more mature fields. don't expect to get anywhere near real research in anything having to do with biology without a ph.d The_Franz fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 15:49
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you need to know how to write data structures from scratch because everywhere you interview will give you a stupid coding challenge where you have to do that or some smuglord who parses zip codes all day will ask you to reverse a linked list on a whiteboard so he can feel smart
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Oct 18, 2018 16:12
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The interviewing and recruiting thread is an endless stream of people getting asked "but how would _you_ invent the wheel"
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Oct 18, 2018 16:27
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The_Franz posted:getting a bachelors in anything boils down to learning stuff that's already been done. even a masters is usually just adding a few courses on top of a bachelors. i know. still sucks. I graduated knowing how to do an algorithm and data structure. lets use that knowledge! oh, nobody doing anything interesting will give me the time of day due to 3rd rate state school and no internships. now im a senior zip code parser and nobody wants a senior zip code parser to work on their distributed graph database or w/e
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Oct 18, 2018 16:32
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qirex posted:you need to know how to write data structures from scratch because everywhere you interview will give you a stupid coding challenge where you have to do that or some smuglord who parses zip codes all day will ask you to reverse a linked list on a whiteboard so he can feel smart if you can’t reverse a linked list then you shouldn’t be writing code. it is a test of fundamental skills and one of the most basic things you can do in programming. anyone who feels smart about being able to do it must feel extremely smart when they tie their shoes in the morning
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Oct 18, 2018 16:55
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i wear loafers
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Oct 18, 2018 17:04
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The Management posted:if you can’t reverse a linked list then you shouldn’t be writing code. it is a test of fundamental skills and one of the most basic things you can do in programming. anyone who feels smart about being able to do it must feel extremely smart when they tie their shoes in the morning eh if it's something you figure out in the interview maybe. i've got no interest in seeing someone's algo that they memorized
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