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Cessna posted:I think my logic is pretty straightforward: gently caress Nazis. They want to degrade, hurt, and murder innocent people, so I don't want them or their viewpoints to be accepted. I don't like entertainment media that - even inadvertently, even through ignorance - makes their views more mainstream or commonplace. Totally agree, but we run the risk of the terrors and horrors perpetuated by the Nazi's being forgotten. And they will. because people are like that. The fact that we still have Holocaust deniers out there, and some even in government offices should keep folks well aware of the danger of forgetting and ignoring unpleasant parts of history. Kinda like a lot of folks have no clue what Stalin did to his own people during and following the war. Or who Pol Pot is and what he did in Cambodia. Or the Ottoman's genocide of the Armenians.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:35
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EvilMerlin posted:Kinda like a lot of folks have no clue what Stalin did to his own people during and following the war. Or who Pol Pot is and what he did in Cambodia. Or the Ottoman's genocide of the Armenians. Or Columbus Day. Fangz posted:Yes. Also because those games are pretty niche, appeal to an older crowd, and from a genre point of view are less capable of being persuasive and engaging. Crazycryodude posted:Yes, they're not personal stories about war criminals they're abstract counter-pushing, of course they have less impact on what people think. darthbob88 posted:I believe so, and also grant strategy games like that show the atrocities from 30,000 feet. Okay, that's at least consistent. But it's weird to see this sentiment ("You can tell a story about Nazis if you want, but only if it's really superficial or abstract and isn't too popular or engaging") in a thread about history. Wouldn't that stance trouble you if it was applied to any other form of art? What makes Das Boot okay, then? Or Signs of Life? If these things are good art, then isn't it better if more people see them? Or does Das Boot suddenly become bad art if more people start watching it? Phanatic fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 20:38
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bewbies posted:If the answer is "gently caress nazis" that's fine, but that isn't logically consistent. I am well aware of the horrible crimes against humanity committed by Communists in the name of Communism - but I believe Naziism and far-right extremism presents a more violent and immediate threat today.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:40
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Phanatic posted:Or Columbus Day. As a Native American... don't even get me started.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:40
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Cessna posted:I am well aware of the horrible crimes against humanity committed by Communists in the name of Communism - but I believe Naziism and far-right extremism presents a more violent and immediate threat today. On a individual level? Sure, of course, especially in Northern Europe. But as a global level, there are still countries run under the guise of Communism that are doing a lot of very bad things to its citizens and the globe as a whole. Look at what China (when it wants to that is), Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea and Laos do to their people on a daily basis. Vietnam is finally learning that Communism is not a good thing for a country or its people.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:43
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Coldwar timewarp posted:Not the US! Maybe Britain, but I’m sure they were happy to have more colonies. Um nope. Even in the late nineteenth century you get people in the government saying things like 'we have quite enough to deal with already, can you please stop trying to add more poo poo for us to have to administer Mr Rhodes'. Britain did not join WW1 because it had a burning desire for German Africa.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:47
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EvilMerlin posted:Totally agree, but we run the risk of the terrors and horrors perpetuated by the Nazi's being forgotten. And they will. because people are like that. I think this is - and I swear, I'm not trying to be insulting here - a bit of a derail. "We can't tear down Confederate statues, people will forget their history!" No, they won't. History isn't taught through statues. It's taught in schools, and we should teach more of it. Teach school kids - in age appropriate ways, of course - about things like the fact that slavery was horrible. Teach history classes in schools, teach them in colleges. Don't leave it to statues. Same deal here, but for Nazis and video games.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:47
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EvilMerlin posted:
War Thunder has (had?) a serious issue that can cause this problem. Shells have no diameter, and are just modeled as points. This means that you can have a perfectly-aimed 45mm shell go right through a periscope hole and bypass the armor completely.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:47
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Phanatic posted:What economic distress are you talking about? Well in the US median household wealth has dropped by tens of thousands of dollars since 2008 and never recovered. Plus skyrocketing housing costs in many cities combined with basically zero wage growth for the past 30 years. For my part i'm from the UK where economic austerity has been going on for 8 years, causing the premature death of over 120,000 people and measurably driving people into the arms of UKIP and towards Brexit. So...yeah. Lobster God posted:To be fair, there were serious discussions among the Tory brexiteer crowd about Brexit being an opportunity for 'Empire 2.0'. https://twitter.com/DawnHFoster/status/1046825778539888640
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Oct 18, 2018 20:47
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EvilMerlin posted:On a individual level? Sure, of course, especially in Northern Europe. But as a global level, there are still countries run under the guise of Communism that are doing a lot of very bad things to its citizens and the globe as a whole. Look at what China (when it wants to that is), Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea and Laos do to their people on a daily basis. Vietnam is finally learning that Communism is not a good thing for a country or its people. Can we please not do this particular derail again?
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Oct 18, 2018 20:48
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EvilMerlin posted:On a individual level? Sure, of course, especially in Northern Europe. But as a global level, there are still countries run under the guise of Communism that are doing a lot of very bad things to its citizens and the globe as a whole. Look at what China (when it wants to that is), Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea and Laos do to their people on a daily basis. Vietnam is finally learning that Communism is not a good thing for a country or its people. I do not disagree, but I don't live there, I live here in the States - and given that we're talking about games that are produced here...
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Oct 18, 2018 20:48
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Gnoman posted:War Thunder has (had?) a serious issue that can cause this problem. Shells have no diameter, and are just modeled as points. This means that you can have a perfectly-aimed 45mm shell go right through a periscope hole and bypass the armor completely. I didn't know what. I haven't played it in nearly 18 months.
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Oct 18, 2018 20:50
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Phanatic posted:Das Boot This, or the 1993 Stalingrad. Both movies show Wehrmacht joes fighting the war. I don't think either movie shows them committing (or being ordered to commit) any war crimes, nor does either movie make any serious foray into German politics. They both just try and show some average dudes in incredibly lovely situations and then they both progress to very depressing and morally ambiguous endings. Cessna posted:I am well aware of the horrible crimes against humanity committed by Communists in the name of Communism - but I believe Naziism and far-right extremism presents a more violent and immediate threat today. Pointed out already but I've been neck deep in China's politics and military the last several months and there's an awful lot of people in Xinjiang and elsewhere that would heartily disagree with this (I do also). bewbies fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 20:51
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feedmegin posted:Can we please not do this particular derail again?
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Oct 18, 2018 20:53
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Cessna posted:I do not disagree, but I don't live there, I live here in the States - and given that we're talking about games that are produced here... Battlefield 5 was from Dice I thought. Are they not Swedes? And Criterion is in England?
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Oct 18, 2018 20:53
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Phanatic posted:Or Columbus Day. My personal opinion is not that they 'aren't allowed to tell this story', but that there are pretty high stakes here. I'm sure I said something similar with the call of duty wwii game. Which was bad. Edit: I think the das boot example is more complicated. If Disney was to make a PG13 remake of Das Boot aimed at making it more mass market I *would* actually be quite worried. The production of mainstream mass media implies certain compromises. See e.g. marvel selling Heil Hydra t-shirts. Fangz fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 20:57
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Oct 18, 2018 21:01
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bewbies posted:Pointed out already but I've been neck deep in China's politics and military the last several months and there's an awful lot of people in Xinjiang and elsewhere that would heartily disagree with this (I do also). I too disagree that the heart of the worldwide capitalist economic system and source of most of the world's consumer goods these days is in any meaningful way Communist. It's a bit like saying it's a People's Republic.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:03
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EvilMerlin posted:Totally agree, but we run the risk of the terrors and horrors perpetuated by the Nazi's being forgotten. And they will. because people are like that. This is really dumb. Nazi atrocities are going to be forgotten if video games dont let you play as nazis? What? bewbies posted:This, or the 1993 Stalingrad. In the novel, the sub accidentally torpedoes a neutral spanish civilian liner because it has a confusing entry in the ship index. Anyways, yes, it is factual that neither movie actually grapples with German politics, and thus they are failures to convey an actual anti-nazi concepts. They arr not kind to Nazis, but neither is Indiana Jones. Lothar Gunter Bucheim actually denounced the Das Boot film as combo of "cheap, shallow American action flick" and a "contemporary German propaganda newsreel from World War II". Thats an artist being temperamental imo, but it makes your appeal to art sound a little halfassed to me. Im pretty sure youre just sore about reading too many dumb anti-wehraboo posts so get off your 0edestal and stop pretending this is some rational position
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Oct 18, 2018 21:03
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this country is illiterate
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Oct 18, 2018 21:03
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Fangz posted:I mean the way I would do it would be to have the tiger commander guy recount all those stories about killing hundreds of shermans, and have the main character slowly realise he's making all that poo poo up. I'd play an LA Noire style game where you go out on the battlefield and verify this guy's kill count. Then watch your report get binned as your superior signs the Knights Cross award order anyway.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:03
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:This is really dumb. Nazi atrocities are going to be forgotten if video games dont let you play as nazis? What? Don't be daft, I wasn't talking specifically about video games. I was talking about books, movies etc. all of it. Some people want to eliminate all references to Nazi's and that is not a good thing. THAT is what I am saying.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:05
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bewbies posted:This, or the 1993 Stalingrad. I don't object to Das Boot of 1993 Stalingrad one bit. I am certainly not saying "no Nazis ever." I AM saying "if you're going to make the Nazis the protagonists, take a long hard look at how you're doing it." Now, that said - Das Boot doesn't take a hard look at Nazi politics, but it does take numerous political stands nonetheless. Consider: The crew, unshaven and filthy after a long time at sea, meet with a supply ship. The supply ship's crew live in opulence, decry their frustration at not being able to fight, and give champagne toasts to the u-boat crew and "our beloved fuhrer" while the u-boat crews stare slack-jawed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hvoMyhHQHg The 1st Watch Officer is portrayed as an ardent Nazi - blond hair, clean uniform, a family with money from their overseas estate (i.e., he's not an average joe) - and is regarded as a bit of an rear end by the rest of the crew. The message here is clear: Nazis are assholes, and are different from the more sympathetic protagonists.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:06
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Cessna posted:I don't object to Das Boot of 1993 Stalingrad one bit. I am certainly not saying "no Nazis ever." This makes much sense.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:07
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feedmegin posted:I too disagree that the heart of the worldwide capitalist economic system and source of most of the world's consumer goods these days is in any meaningful way Communist. It's a bit like saying it's a People's Republic. This is probably well outside the scope of this thread so I'll drop it if there's no interest in further discussion, but contemporary Chinese leadership has taken a hard Marxist turn in recent years. They certainly don't always practice what they preach (especially their ever growing quasi capitalist oligarch class and their dealings overseas) but the government line is absolutely one of hardline Marxism internal to China. Cessna posted:I don't object to Das Boot of 1993 Stalingrad one bit. I am certainly not saying "no Nazis ever." I suspect we all agree with this. I also suspect that the game in question is probably going to strongly resemble Stalingrad in both timbre and content. Again, if I'm wrong, and it does come off as a celebration of nazi, I'll be pissed, and I also think that'll be it for that game company. bewbies fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 21:12
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Cessna posted:I don't object to Das Boot of 1993 Stalingrad one bit. I am certainly not saying "no Nazis ever." Would this be possible to tell as a story about a "regular joe in the German army"?
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Oct 18, 2018 21:14
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bewbies posted:They certainly don't always practice what they preach (especially their ever growing quasi capitalist oligarch class and their dealings overseas) but the government line is absolutely one of hardline Marxism internal to China. I would rather ask where they DO practice what they preach. Words are cheap. What are they doing differently now that is actually Marxist?
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Oct 18, 2018 21:15
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EvilMerlin posted:Battlefield 5 was from Dice I thought. Are they not Swedes? And Criterion is in England? Looking at the list posted above and checking via company websites: Battlefield 1942 – Electronic Arts, headquartered in California, USA. Yes, EA Dice is in Sweden, but they’ve been a subsidiary of EA since 2006. BF1943 – See above Medal of Honor – Dreamworks Interactive from California, USA, published by EA from California. About a dozen MoH sequels – See above. Day of Defeat – Valve Corporation, from Washington State, USA. Call of Duty - Infinity Ward, Treyarch, and Sledgehammer games, all from California, USA. About a dozen CoD sequels – See Above. Day of Defeat - Still from California. World War 2 Online - Strategy First, from Canada. One from Canada, the rest from the USA or studios owned by US companies.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:17
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bewbies posted:I suspect we all agree with this. I also suspect that the game in question is probably going to strongly resemble Stalingrad in both timbre and content. Yeah, I think we're on the same page here.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:18
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How extremely Marxist of the modern PRC to ruthlessly crack down on striking factory workers and start disappearing communist student groups that support said workers. This is definitely Marxism that real Marxists who read Marx do and not just slapping a coat of red paint on Gilded Age level capitalist bullshit.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:19
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feedmegin posted:I would rather ask where they DO practice what they preach. Words are cheap. What are they doing differently now that is actually Marxist? https://www.ft.com/content/766d2a42-419d-11e8-803a-295c97e6fd0b https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology_of_the_Communist_Party_of_China
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Oct 18, 2018 21:21
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EvilMerlin posted:https://www.ft.com/content/766d2a42-419d-11e8-803a-295c97e6fd0b The first one is paywalled, what is it?
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Oct 18, 2018 21:24
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Crazycryodude posted:How extremely Marxist of the modern PRC to ruthlessly crack down on striking factory workers and start disappearing communist student groups that support said workers. This is definitely Marxism that real Marxists who read Marx do and not just slapping a coat of red paint on Gilded Age level capitalist bullshit. Sounds Marxist to me.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:25
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EvilMerlin posted:https://www.ft.com/content/766d2a42-419d-11e8-803a-295c97e6fd0b Your first link is pay walled. Your second is about words, which are cheap. What recent concrete changes has China made to, for example, enact 'from each according to their ability, to each according to their need'? What massively leftist policies have been enacted to benefit Chinese workers and reduce income inequality? Where's the shiny new Chinese NHS?
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Oct 18, 2018 21:27
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feedmegin posted:I would rather ask where they DO practice what they preach. Words are cheap. What are they doing differently now that is actually Marxist? grassroots communist party membership drives and education expanding the role of party officials in SOEs, and consolidating power at the heart of the CCP exporting chinese socialism to developing countries doubling down on an authentic chinese-style socialism as a fundamental part of the long term development plan for the country etc
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Oct 18, 2018 21:27
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bewbies posted:grassroots communist party membership drives and education And this does what for the average Chinese sweatshop worker? 'The Chinese Communist party pushes to expand its control' does not mean the 'Communist' in that name is any more real.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:31
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Item 3 is also describing just straight-up imperialism which basically every communist theorist ever has loudly decried as bad and part of capitalism. Painting your capitalism red and putting "communist" in the name of everything but not actually changing the concrete things you do doesn't make it actual Marxism.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:36
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feedmegin posted:I would rather ask where they DO practice what they preach. Words are cheap. What are they doing differently now that is actually Marxist? They do a pretty good job of suppressing dissent and controlling the information the public is exposed to, including the press. feedmegin posted:And this does what for the average Chinese sweatshop worker? 'The Chinese Communist party pushes to expand its control' does not mean the 'Communist' in that name is any more real. What did collectivization do for the average farm laborer? What did the Great Leap Forward do for anyone? You’re No True Scotsmanning pretty hard here.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:36
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feedmegin posted:And this does what for the average Chinese sweatshop worker? 'The Chinese Communist party pushes to expand its control' does not mean the 'Communist' in that name is any more real. I'm assuming this is a no true communist situation, and no amount of proposed or actual Chinese reforms or policies are going to satisfy whatever it is you're looking for here. To answer your post directly, it actually was in part the state of sweatshops, and the enormous disparity in wealth throughout the country, that led to Xi's rise in power and the CCPs recommitment to Marxist policy. that being said if there is actual interest and me making an effort post about the ongoing Chinese reform efforts I'm happy to do so. there probably isn't a more important and interesting global friction right now than that between the CCP and the atomically wealthy Chinese oligarchs, but it also definitely isn't military history
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Oct 18, 2018 21:39
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Pull up thread! Otherwise ArdentCommunist is going to come in here and he's going to be pissed
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Oct 18, 2018 21:40
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