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Nuclear is better than all renewables.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:19
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I roll the coal up the hill. Sweat beads on my brow, trickling down, both watering and salting the barren earth at my feet. Only a little higher. I'm almost there. The coal reaches the top and I rest, happy, proud of my accomplishment. I've rolled coal with the best; I've reached the pinnacle. Then it happens, again. Just like yesterday. Just like the day before that, the week before that, the months, years, even millennia that passed as slowly as the stones making homes of my kidneys. The coal boulder--the coalder--begins to shift. The sand gives way, and the coalder picks up speed. Down the hill it tumbles, all the way to the bottom again, dragging me behind it by the chains of consumption shackled to my wrists. Bloodied, beaten, exhausted; I am defeated once more. The gods laugh from atop their nuclear cloud and send crows on the ever-renewing wind to claw at my eyes. My face is wet, but whether from blood or eco-friendly tears I no longer know. I start again at the bottom, forever rolling the coal to the heights, rolling it toward the light, showing the world that coal has its place in the sun. My tears rinse the coal clean, polishing it to a beautiful, gleaming finish that pollutes neither eye nor air. This time, the coalder will make it. This time, they'll finally let me die.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:19
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EdithUpwards posted:Nuclear is better than all renewables. It'd be nice if it actually managed to stay on budget.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:21
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The Dipshit posted:If we don't solve the problem with the current political frame, then a new political framework will emerge. The most likely one if we don't start changing voluntarily is something that'll look like fascism. Many of us would rather not see that, because gently caress me, that should be obvious. Solving the problem with the current political frame is literally impossible in the time scale available. I hate that I've come to think this way but I legit think full communism now is the only solution that doesn't involve naturally sprouting fascism. Democracy will never work, you can't fix a century-scale, global problem with hundreds of half-decade governments coming and going, all being elected under pressure to do things that are directly counter to the interests of the environment. Monaghan posted:I dunno, I think this thread does ignore the fact that prices of eco friendly stuff like solar panels and electric cars keep going down. it's Fixed. We will never reduce needless consumption or production while people still need money to live. As long as 'how much does this cost' is a factor there is no technology on this gay earth that will fix things.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:22
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Monaghan posted:It'd be nice if it actually managed to stay on budget. The solution to budget woes is guillotine.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:22
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Monaghan posted:It'd be nice if it actually managed to stay on budget. Some huge chunk of the cost overruns arise from financing issues. Like 70% IIRC, I'll look it up when I'm off a phone. Owlofcreamcheese posted:That is probably true. People in france/italy/spain where people have per capita emissions of 4-6 tons instead of american's 17-20 live their lifestyles differently, but like, generally comparable western lifestyles to the US/south korea/canada. There is no ecofascism or loss of freedoms or extreme deprivation. Just reasonable non-extreme variations on society. Ok, break down a plan to make it happen in approx. 10 years then. I'd be happy with just some vague bits here. The Dipshit fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 23:23
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Slavvy posted:
I agree with the needless consumption part, but I don't see how reducing carbon emissions is somehow inherently tied to capitalism dying, if a cheaper and non-polluting form energy generation or transport is in the mix. Edit- capitalism should die for a host of reasons, don't misunderstand me. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 23:25
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Wakko posted:Is there really much to debate or discuss here? What is it you get out of this thread? What does anyone get out of any thread? I post in this thread because global warming is real an is an extreme threat that is going to hurt a lot of people and places, and there is paths towards solutions that we should be taking, where we have identified the things causing the problems and either have complete solutions or have partial solutions that have known paths to complete solutions but everyone decided that the whole sections of the environmental movement would focus on crazy stuff instead of that. Where people counter hosed up denialists with weird hosed up fallout fanfiction and offer suggestions to fix it based on literally impossible to implement plans for people's personal lives over hard to implement but known workable actual solutions. Like lets cut the per capita CO2 of america by half. Over and over people will tell you it can't be done, people on MY side, that want to fix climate change and will go on and on about their view about how that big of a cut would require some extreme denial of modern society and return to the woods and some massive ecofascism movement or everyone to spontaneously adhere to monastic rules of extreme self denial. But like, countries exist that have half our per person output, they are generally totally normal countries that have normal western lifestyles. But people wanna jerk off to apocalypse fantasy so they play up how impossible and unsolvable things are. And end up fighting against discussions and movements that could be productive.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:32
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twodot posted:Is there good evidence this doesn't just induce more demand like other efficiency gains? I agree that making cars more fuel efficient by itself wont reduce overall CO2 emissions. However, by creating the technology now, it will make it easier to transition to a less fossil-fuel dependent society in the future when the effects of climate change become real and people start voting to restrict fossil fuel consumption. Consider the following two scenarios: A.) We don't make cars more fuel efficient right now. B.) We make cars more fuel efficient right now. Let's say that in 20 years the effects of climate change cause voters to pass a law that caps each person's yearly CO2 emissions to some value. In scenario A people would have to reduce their non-car CO2 emitting activities MORE than in scenario B, so the people in scenario A would suffer more while they wait for the technology to make cars more fuel efficient is developed.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:33
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OOCC cherrypicks posts about individual action because cultivating laziness is therapy for him. That's why whenever he posts you should just remind him that when he was trying to talk down to people that know their poo poo he managed to undershoot the IPCC's latest current emissions pathway estimate by an entire degree Celsius.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:37
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An example of current climate change issues being debated on Facebook : banning plastic straws. What we need people talking about : literally anything more radical
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Oct 18, 2018 23:37
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Wakko posted:Life is not star trek, there are real physical limits to the planetary systems that support us. Just an example, iirc even stopping all GHG emissions but continuing to grow energy production by 2% a year for the next 300 years, we would cook the earth to the point of no longer supporting life just from the waste heat. I don't think you remembered correctly.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:41
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Monaghan posted:I agree with the needless consumption part, but I don't see how reducing carbon emissions is somehow inherently tied to capitalism, if a cheaper and non-polluting form energy generation or transport is in the mix. Ok I'll break it down. You need money to live because you need to pay for rent, food, necessities et al. The institutions that provide you with those things are doing it in order to make a profit. This means that a substantial amount of your work is being used to generate profit; you aren't paying for what your solar panel (or whatever item) costs to make, you're paying for what it costs to make + what keeps the company shareholders happy that they're making a profit. So let's take them out of the picture and make every corporation a non-profit and the products all become cheaper as a result. Great, but the wages of the solar panel workers still have to be paid because they still need to live. Sweet, you can buy one. But Zimbabwe can't. But you need to fix the planet so given the choice of making money or fixing the planet you choose the latter and give them to zimbabwe for free. How do the workers get paid if you're giving them to zimbabwe for free? The money has to come from somewhere. It's simply not possible to develop/build/distribute the technology and infrastructure needed to make the necessary massive societal changes if someone needs to 'pay' for it, let alone make a profit. Which means the workers have to do it for free, which means they need some other means of surviving on a personal basis, which means capitalism is a dead-end. Or alternatively you could try to convince the 1% to donate 99% of their wealth to the cause of fixing the environment. I'll wait.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:42
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 Mmmmmm. Good thing the IEA has announced that global carbon emissions will increase again this year, and next year, and next year. Potentially until we start explosively dismantling oil infrastructure and oil executives, but people will always disagree on that. Rime fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 23:43
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The Dipshit posted:Ok, break down a plan to make it happen in approx. 10 years then. I'd be happy with just some vague bits here. Since I'm using france as the example of climate techno utopia so much lets look at how france got there: the president said 'hey, lets switch to nuclear power", then they switched to nuclear power within a few years. that it. that was the whole thing. ( not every country is going to have it go that smooth, but it really is a perfect example of the denier's claim it is inherently a 250 year process that is sci-fi to even think about and couldn't be any other way) https://francenuclear168.weebly.com/messmer-plan.html "France’s Prime Minister, Pierre Messmer then decided to launch the Messmer Plan. As a result of the Plan, France constructed a total of 56 new reactors between the years of 1974 and 1989. debate did not necessarily form over the use of nuclear power as an energy source, but rather focused on the lack of public and parliamentary discussion before its enactment."
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Oct 18, 2018 23:47
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:OOCC cherrypicks posts about individual action because cultivating laziness is therapy for him. That's why whenever he posts you should just remind him that when he was trying to talk down to people that know their poo poo he managed to undershoot the IPCC's latest current emissions pathway estimate by an entire degree Celsius. Which seems like a lot more educable mistake than the million posts that decide the IPCC report itself is toilet paper garbage because the actual science didn't support their hopes and dreams that the cleansing fire will get them out of work by next week tops so must be wrong. It's not like I've doubled down that I'm right about the number and they are wrong when I wrote something and it wasn't right.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:59
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Slavvy posted:The money has to come from somewhere. If the Modern Monetary Theory folks are correct*, just print US dollars to cover the cost, send the panels to wherever, and list the cost as part of this year's federal deficit. Used sparingly - such as when averting society-transforming disasters - the fallout from doing so would be far less than that of taking no action. * I'm not 100% convinced, but I have yet to hear a rebuttal that breaks it down into layman's terms that the MMT economists don't have a counter-rebuttal for.
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Oct 19, 2018 00:01
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most of the "individual action is pointless" people are basically just human lab rats that have lost the will to live https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
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Oct 19, 2018 00:03
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Which seems like a lot more educable mistake than the million posts that decide the IPCC report itself is toilet paper garbage because the actual science didn't support their hopes and dreams that the cleansing fire will get them out of work by next week tops so must be wrong. It's not like I've doubled down that I'm right about the number and they are wrong when I wrote something and it wasn't right. It would be educable if you actually learned from it.
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Oct 19, 2018 00:04
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StabbinHobo posted:most of the "individual action is pointless" people are basically just human lab rats that have lost the will to live possum, don't be racist
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Oct 19, 2018 00:06
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StabbinHobo posted:most of the "individual action is pointless" people are basically just human lab rats that have lost the will to live I'm the main "individual action is pointless" guy in this thread and it's like a comet was going to hit the earth and half the population decided that was fake and we shouldn't do anything about it then somehow a disturbing percentage of the other half agreed the comet was going to hit but somehow decided the answer was to brush your teeth regularly and be nice to your neighbors. While nasa engineers scream that the rockets you'd need to fix 80% of it are the kind we already know how to build and we just need to focus on that and not the tooth brushing thing.
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Oct 19, 2018 00:23
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Trabisnikof posted:I don't think you remembered correctly. It was 2.3%, so you're right: Galactic-Scale Energy I don't have a PHD in physics, but it seems like a pretty straightforward function of compound growth. This is just one random thought experiment, but I think the greater point is- there's meaningful discussion to be had within the problem space of how do we find solutions within the limits to growth that are imposed by physical reality. If you think technology will forever overcome all such limits, that seems more like a personal spirituality.
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Oct 19, 2018 00:38
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:we already know how
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Oct 19, 2018 00:46
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qkkl posted:The problem is... there is no problem... yet. poo poo's already happening. Just off the top of my head: - High-tide's flooding Miami, which recently passed $100m in spending for adaptation - 5" of sea level rise in areas of the east coast are wrecking smaller communities, mainly in the Carolinas. (^Sea level rise is not equally distributed) - Wildfires are getting worse. - Syria wouldn't have happened without climate change. - Loss-of-islands is displacing peoples already. - America's farming region is shrinking, its western boundary has moved 140 miles east (link, read this one it's crazy) its_happening.gif
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Oct 19, 2018 00:48
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StabbinHobo posted:when you say "we" though you really mean "anyone but me" cuz you're not just useless you're actively counter productive I've been reading both sides of the argument and I don't see how what oocc posts is that unreasonable. From what I can tell he's advocating for big global / government level changes instead of begging people to be "good" for everyone's sake
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Oct 19, 2018 00:58
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The debAte over whether renewables will be enough,or whether we need nuclear, or whether we as individuals have to stop having kids and eating meat, is all academic. Truth is, none of those will be enough. Things will just keep getting worse and worse and worse. Don't mock people for having sci-fi fantasies, at least not without acknowledging your own fantasies of humans surviving as a technological civilization of any kind. Nobody is going to have electricity, clean potable water, or medicine. No,we ain't gonna get selfdriving cars or space elevators or life extension. But we're also not going to have cars of any kind, or space programs of any kind, or space telescopes, or telecommunications satellites, or healthcare of any kind. Maybe it won't all go away at once,but it'll go away. space It was fun, guyz. We got to enjoy tv, movies, video games, YouTube videos, and porn. We got to indulge in junk food and air conditioning for a while. But we're gonna lose em. And we're gonna lose more. Like the expectation that our kids will make it to adulthood, get an education, a career or some kind of wellpaying job, a house of their own, and a legacy. Nah. Our grandkids are gonna be making GBS threads in the woods and eating squirrels, if they can find any. I don't blame folks like OOCC. They delusional but hey, if your gonna dream, dream big.
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Oct 19, 2018 01:02
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StabbinHobo posted:when you say "we" though you really mean "anyone but me" I really mean: calls for individual action is the "millenials need to stop eating avocado toast then they could afford houses" of environmentalism. There is no amount of toast you can skip that will ever save enough to buy a house, you can jerk off as much as you want that toast costs nonzero money so any toast they skip technically brings their savings closer to a house but that is just garbage advice that literally will never have any impact of any sort on the root causes of the issue. Even if that means the individual does not have direct control over the larger reasons their generation struggles to buy a house. I could switch to petting locally sourced organic cats right this second and I'd save some hundred thousandth of a percent of global Co2 over my entire life. There is no end game to that. And if it depends on global compliance of everyone agreeing to do it then with everyone on earth united to do things could implement the real solutions. A vast majority of Co2 comes from a tiny number of sources. The biggest sources have already existent solutions that could replace them. Declaring that too hard to fix then deciding the better choice is literally impossible plans that everyone will globally comply with a set of moral guidelines that don't even attack the right things because that is something you can yell at your friends and family about directly and pretend you are fixing things is stupid.
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Oct 19, 2018 01:36
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that was a very long "yes"
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Oct 19, 2018 01:42
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StabbinHobo posted:that was a very long "yes" You literally can make no meaningful impact on climate change through lifestyle decisions while living next to a coal plant. If you can team up enough people to change their life that it would make a number that matters you can gather that number of people to close the coal plant. Now you say "well I wanna do both!" then have everyone make 400 posts about the exact details of their lifestyle modification plan that would lead to some .001% decrease in CO2 through perfect eternal compliance over the whole globe mixed in with one or two posts vaguely mentioning maybe replacing energy generation at some point but that no one should work to hard on that because it's impossible anyway and a few more mentions of transportation but only in context of where it intersects with telling people how to behave.
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Oct 19, 2018 02:09
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I really mean: calls for individual action is the "millenials need to stop eating avocado toast then they could afford houses" of environmentalism. There is no amount of toast you can skip that will ever save enough to buy a house, you can jerk off as much as you want that toast costs nonzero money so any toast they skip technically brings their savings closer to a house but that is just garbage advice that literally will never have any impact of any sort on the root causes of the issue. Even if that means the individual does not have direct control over the larger reasons their generation struggles to buy a house. hang on, this actually looks like a good post
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Oct 19, 2018 02:16
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Socks4Hands posted:hang on, this actually looks like a good post 1) Explicitly referencing their habit of taking international flights, which they are somehow surprised people continuously reference despite also continuously referencing their own international flights: Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think the extreme hyperfocus this thread has on my vacations is a super clear example of weird misdirection of attention based on bad metrics of what does or doesn't meaningfully contribute to climate change. Owlofcreamcheese posted:If no one can figure out a way to avoid things entirely (increasingly likely) the next best thing is figuring out ways to minimize how bad it gets and minimize how long it lasts. Owlofcreamcheese posted:All the dumb "we will ban meat!"/"we will have a global 1 child policy!" stuff has a time line of "this is not stuff that is actually going to happen" no matter how often people present it as a one weird trick. OOCC routinely throws out utter nonsense so long as it justifies their personal life style.
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Oct 19, 2018 02:25
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I still want a clear explanation of this 'petting cats' thing because it sounds awesome.
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Oct 19, 2018 02:25
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anyways, i'm in favor of maximizing how bad it gets and ensuring that it happens as rapidly as possible so i'm not really somebody who has a place in this discussion
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Oct 19, 2018 02:38
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Accretionist posted:I still want a clear explanation of this 'petting cats' thing because it sounds awesome. OOCC has this firmly held belief that intercontinental traveling, specifically by way of flying, is a life-changing leisure activity, which he partakes in when possible and as part of singing its praises he boasts it's allowed him to pet a cat from every continent. He believes this experience should be available to all peoples and, this is no exaggeration, that if technology and society cannot progress in such a way that leisure travel in this fashion becomes even more affordable than it is now, then human civilization should just end because it's not worth existing. His brain is loving broken.
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Oct 19, 2018 02:41
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If you take everything said on this gay dead forum seriously your brain is broken
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Oct 19, 2018 02:46
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Lampsacus fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 02:50
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Accretionist posted:I still want a clear explanation of this 'petting cats' thing because it sounds awesome. I'm gonna pet every cat on earth in randomly selected order before I die. (I take frequent very dumb trips and always find a cat to either talk to or pat to support a joke premise that a fictional cat petting call is why I need to suddenly fly and visit wentworth falls australia some random long weekend. So I've met a cat in 30+ countries and pet a cat on every continent. as the guy said I view the travel network that allows me to do this as a basic part of a future of global civilization and am totally aware that my actual own travel is largely a meaningless and just for fun, but that the network that allows it is one of the greatest wonders in human history that I will never stop praising and that the current incarnation is hilariously primitive to an extreme degree and the fact I can just barely manage this dumb gimmick is just a baby step towards a real future incarnation of this that is open to everyone, and this includes the need to fix the many many many problems air travel has now that make it painfully costly and horribly polluting to the point it can't be for everyone, instead of just declaring it bad and cutting it off even more to be only all but the rich. Also my brain is very broken. Like the guy said. )
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Oct 19, 2018 03:38
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starkebn posted:If you take everything said on this gay dead forum seriously your brain is broken Yeah I mean, I'll grant it's possible that he's actually a well-adjusted individual that has been merely consistently posing as a faux extremist neoliberal for the better part of 3 years in order to troll the entirety of the D&D subforum.
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Oct 19, 2018 03:41
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http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/1/19/infographic-paper-waste
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Oct 19, 2018 03:56
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| # ? May 14, 2024 22:55 |
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Now you say "well I wanna do both!" then have everyone make 400 posts about the exact details of their lifestyle modification plan that would lead to some .001% decrease in CO2 through perfect eternal compliance over the whole globe mixed in with one or two posts vaguely mentioning maybe replacing energy generation at some point but that no one should work to hard on that because it's impossible anyway and a few more mentions of transportation but only in context of where it intersects with telling people how to behave. We have to do both, though. Like, I get you. If you, personally, stop flying then it doesn't loving matter. I've made a pile of posts to that effect in this thread in the past and I stand by it. The reason it doesn't matter is that other people also aren't doing it, though, not because it isn't worthwhile. We actually have "easier" and more readily available solutions to maintaining a car-centric lifestyle if for some goddamn reason we really loving want to do that then we do to international leisure travel. So, yeah, we have to do the big stuff. We also have to stop the smaller emissions sources because at some point we need to be negative emissions as a global civilization.
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Oct 19, 2018 04:00
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