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time to close the thread now that people are arguing about who lives in a stupider place. every urban planning thread will devolve into people getting hissy about their life choices
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Oct 15, 2018 16:00
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People having a stupid derail in D&D??? If that's your bar just shut the whole thing down
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Oct 15, 2018 20:59
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Cicero posted:Suburbs don't have have to be lovely like the US does them. Plenty of suburbs in other developed countries that are still reasonably dense with good transit going into the city. This is honestly the only true plus of living in the city for me, besides being close to work. With the exception of a few new urbanist developments and college towns, you need to live in an urban core area to truly have walkable neighborhoods with mixed development, at least in America. My ideal home isn’t a podpartment in a sea of highrises, it’s a townhome with a backyard big enough to comfortably grill in, a few blocks away from a trolley stop that’ll take me to work. Urban living in the truest sense DOES suck in between the filth, the noise, and the congestion.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:34
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Cicero posted:Suburbs don't have have to be lovely like the US does them. Plenty of suburbs in other developed countries that are still reasonably dense with good transit going into the city. The American suburbs that are pre-car are proof that even Americans can make good suburbs. Of course then we tore out the trolly lines and light rail, but at some point they were good!
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Oct 18, 2018 23:50
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ProperGanderPusher posted:Urban living in the truest sense DOES suck in between the filth, the noise, and the congestion.
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Oct 19, 2018 00:17
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ProperGanderPusher posted:My ideal home isn’t a podpartment in a sea of highrises, it’s a townhome with a backyard big enough to comfortably grill in, a few blocks away from a trolley stop that’ll take me to work. Philly has this in abundance.
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Oct 19, 2018 00:50
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Nitrousoxide posted:Philly has this in abundance. Noted for when I decide to seriously plan an exit strategy from the cyberpunk hellhole that is the SF Bay Area.
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Oct 19, 2018 03:41
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Cugel the Clever posted:These sound like consequences of policy more than anything inherent to modern urban living. congestion and noise is inevitable as a consequence of density, filth is largely negotiable. tokyo is cleaner than most american homes
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Oct 19, 2018 04:13
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luxury handset posted:congestion and noise is inevitable as a consequence of density, filth is largely negotiable. tokyo is cleaner than most american homes Noise doesn't seem like a huge deal either, our previous apartment had a rail line used by the S-Bahn nearly in our backyard (it was ~20-30m away) and we barely noticed it. Then again, Germans are pretty big on tamping down on noise, both in terms of building construction standards (holy poo poo the doors and windows here don't gently caress around), and in terms of written and unwritten rules (IIRC there's an actual law about "quiet time" on Sundays). Would probably be worse closer to the city center though.
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Oct 19, 2018 09:54
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luxury handset posted:congestion and noise is inevitable as a consequence of density, filth is largely negotiable. tokyo is cleaner than most american homes Congestion wouldn't be nearly as bad as it is if Americans didn't have some weird, passionate hatred for mass transit. Cities would also be way less filthy if Americans didn't have such a weird, passionate hatred for the government actually doing things. A few tax dollars, a couple of city employees with cleaning tools, and hey, the city is significantly less dirty all of the time! BUT BUT BUT MAAAAH TAXEEEEEESSSSS  *moves to the suburbs, works in the city, bitches that the city sucks because it has no money*
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Oct 19, 2018 16:21
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some of yall taking a very narrow view of what congestion is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUJ5uvZ3n5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4phFYiMGCIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgEKIaDH7yg
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Oct 19, 2018 16:49
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Congestion wouldn't be nearly as bad as it is if Americans didn't have some weird, passionate hatred for mass transit. Cities would also be way less filthy if Americans didn't have such a weird, passionate hatred for the government actually doing things. A few tax dollars, a couple of city employees with cleaning tools, and hey, the city is significantly less dirty all of the time! There are a LOT of people in the US who would love effective mass transit but they're overridden by special interest groups and racist white people who don't want "inner city types" to be able to easily travel to their neighborhoods.
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Oct 19, 2018 17:29
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Congestion wouldn't be nearly as bad as it is if Americans didn't have some weird, passionate hatred for mass transit. Cities would also be way less filthy if Americans didn't have such a weird, passionate hatred for the government actually doing things. A few tax dollars, a couple of city employees with cleaning tools, and hey, the city is significantly less dirty all of the time! Counterpoint: SF is possibly the most trash ridden city I’ve ever seen in the states and it’s hardly a haven for teabagging chuds. We even vote to increase our taxes on occasion.
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Oct 19, 2018 17:58
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luxury handset posted:some of yall taking a very narrow view of what congestion is Cicero fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 19:18
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I live in Eugene, OR. I am convinced that it is the most poorly laid out city over 100k population in the United States. Take a gander at Google Maps and bask in the awe. Of special note is the I-105 spur in the middle of town.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:30
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I live in Portsmouth, which holds the record of the most densely populated city in the entire UK, not aided by it only having three roads in (the M275, A3 and A2030) and due to it being an island city, if one of those roads snarls up or has an accident, particularly near the city centre, it can cause absolute havoc everywhere
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Oct 19, 2018 21:16
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Spergin Morlock posted:There are a LOT of people in the US who would love effective mass transit but they're overridden by special interest groups and racist white people who don't want "inner city types" to be able to easily travel to their neighborhoods. Yeah, basically everyone I know here in Denver that doesn't use transit regularly has some variation of "I'd love to take the bus/train to work every day if it wouldn't take me two hours when driving would take 20 minutes/require four transfers/have me waiting an hour for my bus after work/etc" I'm fortunate enough to live and work in places where transit is super convenient but that's not the case for most of the city.
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Oct 20, 2018 05:25
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The Maroon Hawk posted:Yeah, basically everyone I know here in Denver that doesn't use transit regularly has some variation of "I'd love to take the bus/train to work every day if it wouldn't take me two hours when driving would take 20 minutes/require four transfers/have me waiting an hour for my bus after work/etc" That's sort of the conundrum, a lot of people will claim "well I'm fine with transit when it's good" and then fight it ever becoming good because in reality they mean "I want it to become good with zero side effects whatsoever impacting my lifestyle and preferences". It's not entirely unlike people who say that they're totally against racism and sexism but are mysteriously against anything that might actually reduce said racism and sexism.
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Oct 20, 2018 09:23
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Cicero posted:Completely understandable in and of itself, but in practice many of those people will then vote against things that would actually improve transit, like bus lanes or reduced parking requirements or higher density zoning. A wonderful example; quote:Residents in Lawnswood are up in arms over proposals to remove a ‘landmark’ roundabout on a busy road and replace it with a multi-lane traffic light junction. But my flowers 
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Oct 20, 2018 16:35
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Total Meatlove posted:A wonderful example; Yeah, pave all the green spaces! That’s an awesome idea!
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Oct 20, 2018 16:45
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So there's absolutely no value to the pedestrian concerns (see the final quote re taxi pickup)?
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Oct 20, 2018 17:25
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Anyone have any info on reducing runoff?
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Oct 20, 2018 17:28
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Spacewolf posted:So there's absolutely no value to the pedestrian concerns (see the final quote re taxi pickup)? Here's the junction in question
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Oct 20, 2018 17:43
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I see. OK, two different concerns in that article. The roundabout, yeah, get rid of it. Widening the approaches, though, might want to be considered a bit more.
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Oct 20, 2018 18:00
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Eleven Eleven posted:I live in Eugene, OR. I am convinced that it is the most poorly laid out city over 100k population in the United States. Take a gander at Google Maps and bask in the awe.
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Oct 20, 2018 18:18
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It's election day in Vancouver and the unabashed YIMBY party YES Vancouver looks to be headed to defeat. The Mayoral candidate leader of the municipal slate, Councillor Hector Bremner has been polling way down the pack in barely double digits. The Globe and Mail published two election round up articles, one focusing specifically on housing, and he wasn't even mentioned. If you want to see an example of what a real non-hypothetical YIMBY party platform looks like you can download a big policy PDF here https://yesvancouver.ca/letsfixhousing-action-plan/ Broadly what they're advocating is a city wide rezone to allow four story apartment buildings everywhere. In contrast other pro-development parties are more incrementalist in advocating studying how Vancouver could get to triplexes and fourplexes (The city just changed zoning to allow duplexes city wide). Unfortunately the defeat of this party will not likely give any indication of Vancouver's opinion toward the YIMBY ideas that YES is advocating for as Bremner himself is proved to be a rather polarizing figure. Bremner comes from the right of centre and previously worked for the deeply unpopular and recently ejected from provincial government BC Liberal party. It's possible that Vancouver is ready for the ideas that Bremner is proposing, but he's not the right man to usher in these changes.
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Oct 20, 2018 19:38
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:My dude have you ever been to Boston I have not, how bad is it?
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Oct 20, 2018 19:40
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Total Meatlove posted:A wonderful example; Roundabouts actually typically have better throughput than light controlled intersections. I'm not sure what benefit they're even hoping to achieve. The primary downside of roundabouts is that they take up significantly more space than a regular controlled intersection, but that's primarily an issue for demolishing existing structures or buying up land that was previously owned/occupied to expand it. If it's already in place than you're probably not going to see much, if any improvement.
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Oct 20, 2018 23:12
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Nitrousoxide posted:Roundabouts actually typically have better throughput than light controlled intersections. I'm not sure what benefit they're even hoping to achieve. The primary downside of roundabouts is that they take up significantly more space than a regular controlled intersection, but that's primarily an issue for demolishing existing structures or buying up land that was previously owned/occupied to expand it. If it's already in place than you're probably not going to see much, if any improvement. I think that there are cases where unequal traffic flows benefit from light controlled junctions over roundabouts because there can be throttling applied to the heavier used routes etc. But would be interesting if they did post the studies though
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Oct 21, 2018 10:48
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I love roundabouts but they absolutely do suck if there's unequal traffic. If most of the cars go the same particular route, it will slow them down a bit while keeping everyone else waiting anyway, because they have to give way to the vehicles from the heavier route that are constantly on the roundabout. There's an absolutely idiotic one just completed nearby where they replaced an ugly but perfectly well functional intersection with a roundabout, and now traffic comes to a crawl 500m away because 90% of the cars that would just keep left here have to come to an almost complete stop.   It's not on streetview or even satellite yet but that's roughly what they did: 
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Oct 21, 2018 14:50
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The Maroon Hawk posted:Yeah, basically everyone I know here in Denver that doesn't use transit regularly has some variation of "I'd love to take the bus/train to work every day if it wouldn't take me two hours when driving would take 20 minutes/require four transfers/have me waiting an hour for my bus after work/etc" Yeah... I was commuting in Northern Virginia some years ago and didn't have a car, so what would have been a 15-20 minute drive was 1:30-2 hour bus + metro trip depending on the time of day. Compared to some time I spent living in London 10 years ago where the loving buses ran every 10 minutes. We're just inexorably wedded to the personal car here.
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Oct 21, 2018 15:01
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If you want to to rely on public transport you just have to accept that some trips will take way long than driving (yes, sometimes several times longer), and either keep a car for those trips or just suck it up deal with it. If the standard for acceptance is "can't take longer than driving", it'll never take off. Yesterday I went to see a movie with some friends and had to cross the whole city for it during the evening rush hour. My starting point was literally on a metro station and the destination was a few km from one too, so the perfect use case, right?   The stop and go was a bit annoying but even with the evening traffic driving took just about 35 minutes, returning at night was under 20. Google suggests the bus because the metro would take about 45 minutes to dump you like 4 km away so it'd take another 20 to get there. This is in a city with one of better public transport systems too.
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Oct 25, 2018 10:42
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mobby_6kl posted:If you want to to rely on public transport you just have to accept that some trips will take way long than driving (yes, sometimes several times longer), and either keep a car for those trips or just suck it up deal with it. If the standard for acceptance is "can't take longer than driving", it'll never take off.
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Oct 25, 2018 10:45
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I remember it being ranked as one of the top 5 systems in the world and apparently it was from this study: https://www.arcadis.com/assets/images/sustainable-cities-mobility-index_spreads.pdf This also includes sustainability and economic factors but even on purely coverage & reliability it's like #13. Anyway I don't have much of an opinion personally. The thing is though, in this example even if they dug one more station next to my destination, it would still take 45 minutes. Like you literally couldn't get any better than that short of digging a direct, express tunnel. Of course with different geography and population density things could be different, and in any case I'm glad as many people use it as they do.
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Oct 25, 2018 11:25
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Yeah, I don't disagree that there are always going to be some trips that are faster in a car, even with excellent transit coverage and speed. In your example it's from the outskirts to other outskirts, and yeah getting that trip to be really fast on trains/buses is going to be hard. The thing that's dumb about the US is that even in a much more straightforward scenario, like "middle of decent sized suburb to middle of major city", transit is often still substantially slower than driving, even in rush hour, which is like a near-ideal case for transit. I didn't realize Prague's system was rated that highly. To me it seemed pretty good, but being American my internal bar for that is usually low.
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Oct 25, 2018 12:24
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it's ok if transit takes longer. the point is to have options for people who lack personal transportation for whatever reason my drive to work is about twenty minutes, because it is much shorter and direct than the 45-60 minute commute on transit which goes way out of the way. so i drive most days. but on days when my aging car is in the shop i have the easy option to plan ahead and spend an extra half hour sitting on the train instead of scrambling to arrange a ride, renting a car, relying on uber etc. like many americans would be in that same situation meanwhile during any sort of off-peak travel times personal automobiles will typically be a faster option for most people, even in a city like manhattan or tokyo (although you're likely to choose a taxi or something because parking is a huge pain)
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Oct 25, 2018 16:11
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mobby_6kl posted:Google suggests the bus because the metro would take about 45 minutes to dump you like 4 km away so it'd take another 20 to get there. This is in a city with one of better public transport systems too. 40/45 mins from Nové Butovice to Skalka and then the last 2.5 kms by bike-share might actually be the most efficient, if Prague were to have a decent share scheme plus requisite ease of use wrt cycling infrastructure. Then you can get loaded on overpriced beer at the cinema and take a leak two times during the latter half of the movie. However, I guess with a modal share of 8% there's a long way to go with biking in the Czech Republic.
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Oct 25, 2018 16:29
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Lime or whatever is trying to get the shared electric scooters to take off. I wouldn't want to ride one anyway though because they look sketchy as gently caress. It's weird bikes aren't more popular because it seems that's all everyone does on weekends.
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Oct 25, 2018 22:55
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It also depends on just the about of traffic involved. Around rush hour in Moscow, it is almost certainly faster to use to the metro (for example) compared to street traffic and it is probably the same in New York.
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Oct 26, 2018 07:48
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Of course, I didn't mean to imply otherwise, but just to help set expectations. Public transport might seem like magic that just teleports you to your destination if you're not actually using it, and sometimes it is. But even in a good, widely used network many routes might take longer than driving, and if they don't, you might be spending a half-hour being pressed into a door/windshield by a fat smelly neckbeards on your way to way to work. See also: Tokyo, Moscow, etc. So if you'd like it to take off, some sacrifices on time and/or comfort might be necessary.
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Oct 28, 2018 10:40
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