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Phanatic posted:They do a pretty good job of suppressing dissent and controlling the information the public is exposed to, including the press. That's got nothing to do with Marxism. Which book/speech/pamphlet by German philosopher and economist Karl Marx says that heavy state censorship is a thing you should do?
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Oct 18, 2018 21:43
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bewbies posted:I'm assuming this is a no true communist situation, and no amount of proposed or actual Chinese reforms or policies are going to satisfy whatever it is you're looking for here. Yep.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:46
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Phanatic posted:What did collectivization do for the average farm laborer? What did the Great Leap Forward do for anyone? You’re No True Scotsmanning pretty hard here. They were at least intended to be better. poo poo ideas, but an attempt to improve things in theory. Saying 'we are super Communist now' and keeping your same old hyper capitalist economy in practice just...isn't. It's not even trying and failing, thats the point. What has the Chinese government concretely tried and either succeeded or failed in doing to improve the conditions of workers, let alone eg give them control of the means of production? Also I must have missed the part in Marx where 'controlling the press' is a fundamental principle of Communism.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:47
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feedmegin posted:They were at least intended to be better. poo poo ideas, but an attempt to improve things in theory. Saying 'we are super Communist now' and keeping your same old hyper capitalist economy in practice just...isn't. It's not even trying and failing, thats the point. What has the Chinese government concretely tried and either succeeded or failed in doing to improve the conditions of workers, let alone eg give them control of the means of production? It's kinda like genocide, it happens naturally in Communist systems.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:49
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feedmegin posted:They were at least intended to be better. poo poo ideas, but an attempt to improve things in theory. Saying 'we are super Communist now' and keeping your same old hyper capitalist economy in practice just...isn't. It's not even trying and failing, thats the point. What has the Chinese government concretely tried and either succeeded or failed in doing to improve the conditions of workers, let alone eg give them control of the means of production? Bollocks collectivisation was intended to be better for the peasants, it was intended so the state could exercise control over the rural peasantry.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:51
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 You know what, I'm out. Modern China is literally doing that bit from the Simpsons with zombie Lenin, sure. No doubt Jeremy Corbyn wants to bring in literal gulags and Bernie Sanders wants all Republicans put up against a wall and shot with Mosin-Nagants, why not.
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Oct 18, 2018 21:58
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Are Mosins really the best option for wall exections?
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Oct 18, 2018 21:59
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Polyakov posted:Bollocks collectivisation was intended to be better for the peasants, it was intended so the state could exercise control over the rural peasantry. Taking control of the means of reproduction.
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Oct 18, 2018 22:01
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zoux posted:Are Mosins really the best option for wall exections? Vasily Blokhin preferred a Walther Model 2 .25 ACP pistol.
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Oct 18, 2018 22:03
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as a thread lurker: im getting the vibe that nobody in this conversation is actually chinese or an asian affairs specialist, because y'all seem really determined to jam a round country into a square DAS-KAPITAL/NOT-DAS-KAPITAL shaped hole without understanding any of the associated societal context, it's kinda offputting
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Oct 18, 2018 22:05
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for starters, cessna is the only person here who's (obliquely) mentioned the entire 中国特色 concept, which isn't so much a fly in the ointment as it is a giant firebreathing dragon
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Oct 18, 2018 22:07
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Reiterpallasch posted:for starters, cessna is the only person here who's (obliquely) mentioned the entire 中国特色 concept, which isn't so much a fly in the ointment as it is a giant firebreathing dragon You sure that was me? I don't speak/read Chinese. I'll have to ask my wife to translate once I get home... Edit: The first character is the "Red Dragon" in Mah Jong, right?
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Oct 18, 2018 22:16
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From the sound of it, China is doubling down on philosophical rhetoric and doing some programs to back it up, which also fits with Xi Jinping consolidating his power over the country and developing his "Xi Jinping Thought" to be added to official state doctrine. Am I getting the right gist of things? Not necessarily adherent to other brands of communism, nor fully self-consistent philosophically with itself, but grand universal political philosophies, especially ones that are propagated for political reasons, usually have big ol' holes.
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Oct 18, 2018 22:17
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Cessna posted:You sure that was me? Google says Communism with Chinese Characteristics
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Oct 18, 2018 22:20
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zoux posted:Are Mosins really the best option for wall exections? You'd have to worry about overpenetration. Make sure your wall is thick enough.
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Oct 18, 2018 22:20
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Crazycryodude posted:Item 3 is also describing just straight-up imperialism which basically every communist theorist ever has loudly decried as bad and part of capitalism. Painting your capitalism red and putting "communist" in the name of everything but not actually changing the concrete things you do doesn't make it actual Marxism. Seems a bit much to describe that as imperialism, though I've long been skeptical of many criticisms of neocolonialism. Anyway, this does remind of a statement by Xi I heard recently, which was that China "does not export revolution." This was emphasized as a pillar of Chinese foreign policy. In context is was used as a criticism of perceived US meddling in other countries internal affairs on humans rights issues, but I was curious if anyone here could explain the deeper context of what exporting revolution means to the Chinese government? I assume it contrasts their present policy with what they were up to in the 1960s, but am unsure. HEY GUNS posted:someone brought up harmful totalitarianism, thoughts are going to lead in the direction of harmful totalitarianism I know totalitarian is a rather vague concept but its really stretching it to a apply it to a place like Venezuela, which --putting aside the rhetoric for a moment-- has what is in many important respects a very shallow state. In terms of how it actually functions it has as much in common with right-wing governments like the one ruling Honduras as it does with the Soviet Union.
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Oct 18, 2018 22:21
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Cessna posted:You sure that was me? that usually gets translated to "chinese-style socialism" or "socialism-with-chinese-characteristics," which was in a news article that you linked. the big thing that a lot of western readers miss when this phrase comes up is that it means something. what it means is a take on marx that's often deeply cynically subordinated to the political needs of whoever is in the ascendancy in the CCP right now, but it's still a real way of thinking about marx that real people really do. i dont like using this word when it comes to well-meaning people (edit: not you) who are missing context, but reducing the grotesqueries of modern chinese state capitalism to "YEAH BUT WAS IT IN MARX/ENGELS" is...kinda racist, yeah. they have an answer for that! that you'd know about, if reading chinese takes was as important to you as reading westerner takes on china which happen to support your own political ideology! e: the first character is zhōng, which just means "middle", as in "middle kingdom", as in china. it's a on a mahjong tile too though, yeah Reiterpallasch fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 22:23
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I really dislike discussion of whether something is "true communism," or fascism, or democracy, or w/e. In part I'm interested in post-colonial history, and the ideology really becomes scrambled from the perspective we're used to looking at things. Sometimes an African President will swing wildly from spouting Marxist platitudes to strident anti-communism, purely as a product of which great power they are courting. Leaders like Saddam Hussein will idolize and seek to emulate both Stalin and Hitler. Is a rightwing military dictatorship with its own paramilitaries fascist? Or is it actually a modern example of pre-fascist Presidential dictatorship that has co-opted a few fascist window dressings? Or should we back date the origin of fascism so that it includes Paraguay under Francisco Solano López? I think a lot of times we let ourselves craft a platonic idea of what an idea like socialism or fascism looks like, and we will base this ideal off of a real world example like Hitler's Germany or the Soviet Union. Then we judge other countries by how close or far they are from these ideal type specimen. However we neglect the way these types are idiosyncratic, and much of what we come to consider descriptive and characteristic of the grand ideologies may actually be unique and particular to the singular case which dominates our imagination. Since you apparently understand a bit more about Chinese politics than me, can you explain what Xi would mean by exporting revolution? I'd really like to know the significance of this policy in Chinese policy and ideology, but don't know where to start.
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Oct 18, 2018 22:43
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We are kinda getting off topic here, so it's kinda hypocritical of me to add more... But I would say that Xi Jinping's government may or may not be more Marxist, but it does move the Chinese Communist party closer to the party of Mao (in terms of centralised power, cult of personality, obsession with rooting out corruption), and away from a state of being dominated by the sorts of people Mao persecuted. As someone whose family was impacted by the history there, this is certainly a concern.
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Oct 18, 2018 22:52
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Squalid posted:Since you apparently understand a bit more about Chinese politics than me, can you explain what Xi would mean by exporting revolution? I'd really like to know the significance of this policy in Chinese policy and ideology, but don't know where to start. From a foreign policy viewpoint China is obviously and arguably justifiably very interested in stepping into the gaping vacuum the US is leaving all over the world. The point about exporting revolution relates to China's core foreign policy ideology, which is that the internal politics of states should be considered sacred and its actions should be regarded as politically neutral with no strings attached. This is distinct to the US, which is portrayed as inherently trying to spread free market democracy, and Russia which has its own ambitions. To what extent this is just cynical rhetoric (it is extremely convenient in justifying actions in Tibet and Xinjiang as well as making deals with various dodgy regimes around the world) and what extent the Chinese actually believe this is left as an exercise to the reader. Fangz fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 23:02
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Squalid posted:Since you apparently understand a bit more about Chinese politics than me, can you explain what Xi would mean by exporting revolution? I'd really like to know the significance of this policy in Chinese policy and ideology, but don't know where to start. I don't think there's anything super deep going on here. Chinese governments have always advocated for (and mostly practiced) non-interventionism outside of what they see as their specific sphere of influence (Korea, Vietnam, the SCS, etc). Obviously their neighbors who are inside what the Chinese consider their sphere of influence have other opinions about this, but it's definitely true that Chinese foreign ministries don't feel the need to put out tsk-tsk statements everytime something happens in Argentina or the Middle East or whatever. Partially this policy of mutual noninterference is because they'd really rather not talk about what's going on with Tibet/Xinjiang/Taiwan, and partially because they genuinely do not give a gently caress what other governments do in their own spheres of influence as long as they're willing to do business. It's almost tautological: obviously "Chinese-style socialism" isn't going to work super great anywhere that's not China. Why would they export it? Why would anyone want to import it? The implicit comparison here, of course, is the American belief that American-style democracy is a panacea for whatever ails your country. What Xi Jinping is doing here is reinforcing a tacit agreement that you can run your country however you want and the Chinese aren't going to mess with you as long as the checks clear and the natural resource exports keep flowing. They're not going to press for IMF/World Bank style reforms, and they're not going to press you to make your own political system look better to CNN viewers. For a lot of political leaders, that's a really attractive offer! Reiterpallasch fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Oct 18, 2018 |
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Oct 18, 2018 23:07
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Trying to get back on topic: another thing internet observers have difficulty with is exactly how terrifying the current Chinese naval expansion spree is to everyone else in the region, especially at this precise time when the United States is sending, uh, mixed messages about its defense obligations re: its Asian allies. They can already assemble credible carrier strike groups around Liaoning and whatever they name their new 001A, including surface combatants qualitatively superior to anything Japan/Taiwan/Korea can field. Type 055 is in most respects (the PLAN is generally considered to lag in ABM and ASW operations) a match for the hypothetical Flight III Burkes, which puts it at least two generations ahead of Burke I derived designs like the Japanese Atago-class. And even running flat-out, the US' Asian allies simply can't come close to the scale of shipbuilding that the PLAN has already locked itself in for. The PLAN already has no peer navies aside from the USN, at least within the bounds of a hypothetical conflict in the SCS/Strait of Taiwan.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:28
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Reiterpallasch posted:Trying to get back on topic: another thing internet observers have difficulty with is exactly how terrifying the current Chinese naval expansion spree is to everyone else in the region, especially at this precise time when the United States is sending, uh, mixed messages about its defense obligations re: its Asian allies. They can already assemble credible carrier strike groups around Liaoning and whatever they name their new 001A, including surface combatants qualitatively superior to anything Japan/Taiwan/Korea can field. Type 055 is in most respects (the PLAN is generally considered to lag in ABM and ASW operations) a match for the hypothetical Flight III Burkes, which puts it at least two generations ahead of Burke I derived designs like the Japanese Atago-class. And even running flat-out, the US' Asian allies simply can't come close to the scale of shipbuilding that the PLAN has already locked itself in for. The PLAN already has no peer navies aside from the USN, at least within the bounds of a hypothetical conflict in the SCS/Strait of Taiwan. Japan/Taiwan/South Korea are not the only countries in the region. Malaysia/Indonesia/Thailand/Philippines typically have pretty positive opinions of China.
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Oct 18, 2018 23:40
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that's definitely true, but it's hard not to watch an entire fully constituted CBG roll out of the shipyards in the space of a year next door and not get nervous
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Oct 18, 2018 23:55
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Didn't China buy up like half of Iraq's oil after the war? After being one of the countries scolding the US for entering into the war. Where does that sort of thing factor into a non-interventionist policy? Usually that kind of investment is what drags countries into interventions.
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Oct 19, 2018 00:11
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i mean, if the pla has deployed to mosul to protect chinese investments in iraqi oil companies from isis (direct investment/futures are how they usually prefer to operate, not literally buying all the oil, which is still in the ground) i haven't heard about it it yet
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Oct 19, 2018 00:16
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I don't know how to make this less giant, but I thought Hey Gal (and others) would enjoy: e: link is better https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/PleasantBeautifulAplomadofalcon e2: video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FscvwcF-uv0 PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 00:23
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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SlothfulCobra posted:Didn't China buy up like half of Iraq's oil after the war? After being one of the countries scolding the US for entering into the war. According to the rhetoric, that's just a simple transactional arrangement. If a rebel group overthrew the Iraqi government, then China would just offer the same deal to the new leadership.
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Oct 19, 2018 00:30
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feedmegin posted:And this does what for the average Chinese sweatshop worker? 'The Chinese Communist party pushes to expand its control' does not mean the 'Communist' in that name is any more real. He thinks it does because the word is there. The word also means bad. It’s divorced from ideology.
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Oct 19, 2018 01:32
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Damnit, the first time we talk about something I actually have a modicum of expertise in and someone beat me to basically every point I was going to make, only a lot clearer than what I would have probably said. It's like people time these Chinese conversations to happen when I'm at work.
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Oct 19, 2018 03:56
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Would this be possible to tell as a story about a "regular joe in the German army"? Stalingrad has a similar allegory when the men find out that Hauptmann Haller has hoarded supplies and even taken a sex slave while keeping extreme discipline on the grunts. You can tell any kind of story in a film or a comic or a video game.
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Oct 19, 2018 04:31
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Reiterpallasch posted:Trying to get back on topic: another thing internet observers have difficulty with is exactly how terrifying the current Chinese naval expansion spree is to everyone else in the region, especially at this precise time when the United States is sending, uh, mixed messages about its defense obligations re: its Asian allies. They can already assemble credible carrier strike groups around Liaoning and whatever they name their new 001A, including surface combatants qualitatively superior to anything Japan/Taiwan/Korea can field. Type 055 is in most respects (the PLAN is generally considered to lag in ABM and ASW operations) a match for the hypothetical Flight III Burkes, which puts it at least two generations ahead of Burke I derived designs like the Japanese Atago-class. And even running flat-out, the US' Asian allies simply can't come close to the scale of shipbuilding that the PLAN has already locked itself in for. The PLAN already has no peer navies aside from the USN, at least within the bounds of a hypothetical conflict in the SCS/Strait of Taiwan. You got any cool reading on this? I’m hella interested because my interactions with the CCP have been entirely “on the ground”, but they’ve been extreme enough I try to avoid the Chinese government if I can because gently caress they can be terrible. 我也看得懂，所以中文的好啊。
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Oct 19, 2018 05:33
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Squalid posted:I really dislike discussion of whether something is "true communism," or fascism, or democracy, or w/e. Squalid posted:I know totalitarian is a rather vague concept but its really stretching it to a apply it to a place like Venezuela, which --putting aside the rhetoric for a moment-- has what is in many important respects a very shallow state. In terms of how it actually functions it has as much in common with right-wing governments like the one ruling Honduras as it does with the Soviet Union. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 06:15
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O hey what was that awesome book on the 39Years War again
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Oct 19, 2018 06:17
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I would just like to point out that there are excellent reasons to be worried about Battlefield 5's Germans, namely that Battlefield 1 had a campaign which I will never get bored of reminding people was outright Fascist propaganda from just about the first word
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Oct 19, 2018 06:20
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Xiahou Dun posted:O hey what was that awesome book on the 39Years War again
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Oct 19, 2018 06:32
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HEY GUNS posted:i thought i was talking about china? Well going back two steps EvilMerlin listed several states of which Venezuela was one, with radically varying social and political systems. If you look at African socialism in particular though it's anything but totalitarian. Certainly not compared to modern Western states which have relatively expansive and powerful states. Some people here might also be surprised at how many states which adopted socialism as the official ideology were explicitly anti-Marxist. This was particularly common for Arab socialists who really disliked the atheism tangled up with Marx. Though if you read statements on the subject by proponents like Gamal Nasser, you get the sense that socialism is very abstract and distant from the present, and that the appeal of central planning to them comes largely from their desire to emulate the economic and military successes of the Soviet Union, rather than deep ideological commitments.
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Oct 19, 2018 06:54
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Xiahou Dun posted:You got any cool reading on this? I’m hella interested because my interactions with the CCP have been entirely “on the ground”, but they’ve been extreme enough I try to avoid the Chinese government if I can because gently caress they can be terrible. Chinese military stuff is always a pain to get solid sources on, because the PLA is famously secretive about its capabilities. Presumably they don't feel the same need to justify their budgetary allocations to the public, the way western navies do. What's available to people like you or me is pretty much all filtered down from either squinting at officially released photographs/satellite imagery or translated from various chinese-language military sperg forums. I'm serious. You can read it, so go ham. It's just as bad as military forums everywhere else on the internet though. As far as English language sources go, Popular Science of all places has an actually really good blog column which follows developments with the PLA, though maybe not at a level of detail that would satisfy thread regulars. After that, it's basically all privately run blogs and Jane's writeups and reddit arguments and it's basically terrible. There's a pretty good writeup of the PLAN's new surface combatant here, at least.
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Oct 19, 2018 07:00
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Ensign Expendable posted:World of Tanks and War Thunder players whine nonstop about German tanks not being the invincible death machines they want them to be, so the best case scenario would be to make the Tiger terrible. Bonus points for having it break down in the opening cutscene and then the crew gets pressed into fighting as infantry. lol follow this young wehrmacht lad as he gets his rear end kicked in lovingly rendered battles from Stalingrad to Seelow
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Oct 19, 2018 07:04
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Fangz posted:We've had that discussion earlier in the thread, I think. I think these things are quite different kettles of fish in terms of mainstream accessibility and also the visceral nature of your engagement. The last time this discussion was around, I was inspired to write an article about it: https://www.barreldrill.com/press-x-to-salute-hitler-the-difficulty-of-making-german-wwii-fps/
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