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Furnaceface posted:Didnt the senate stop a handful of regressive bills the Harper government tried to ram through? The Senate hasn't vetoed a bill since before World War 2 E: Pft thecandianencyclopedia.ca is a bad website apparently vetoing and voting down aren't same thing DariusLikewise fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 18:54
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DariusLikewise posted:I always thought an elected Senate would be could, but at the same time why do we really need a second chamber that is essentially just a duplication of the tasks handled by the House of Commons. "Sober Second Thought" was just some bullshit that was used to justify a chamber that was only made up of the wealthy and meant to squash anything that wouldn't be in their favour from the Commons. Even if we followed the Triple E model and had some sort of PR election for the Senate with representation from Indigenous people it would still just be serving the same purpose with a massive power imbalance based on borders rather than population. Devise a system to elect the experts and abolish the senate
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Oct 19, 2018 18:57
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DariusLikewise posted:The Senate hasn't vetoed a bill since before World War 2 Well we do have the Senate to thank for barely blocking a pretty regressive abortion law in '91
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Oct 19, 2018 19:08
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Devise a system to elect the experts and abolish the senate The amount of effort it would take to actually do anything with the Senate unfourtunately just isn't worth it in the end.
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Oct 19, 2018 19:11
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"Residential schools weren't that badf, and a priest should definitely be grooming underage parishioners for sex." - sober second thinkers
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Oct 19, 2018 19:13
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Sorry if it's been posted before but this thread is big, any good guides to the candidates in the toronto municipal elections?
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Oct 19, 2018 19:20
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Furnaceface posted:Didnt the senate stop a handful of regressive bills the Harper government tried to ram through?  You're being reasonable and demanding some sort of continuity in govt and that's understandable. However a senate that can veto the recriminalization of marijuana by the future Scheer govt can also stymie any serious future attempt to address climate change. This is not to mention that a truly politically empowered Senate would inevitably become as partisan as the House while being naturally gerrymandered (something that doesn't really happen in the existing Canadian electoral system). There's no benefit to tolerating a politicized Senate, and it only seems like a reasonable idea at present because it's lack of democratic mandate (and real power) has allowed it to remain superficially non-partisan. Also let's be honest a small office of civil service workers could probably fulfill the actual Senator responsibilities.
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Oct 19, 2018 19:24
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DariusLikewise posted:The amount of effort it would take to actually do anything with the Senate unfourtunately just isn't worth it in the end. That isn't true, even if it takes 15-25 years to reform/get rid of the senate you can still from there on it'll still a good decision 100 years down the line. Long term thinking and desire to make good systems of governance should go hand in hand.
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Oct 19, 2018 19:30
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flakeloaf posted:"Residential schools weren't that badf, and a priest should definitely be grooming underage parishioners for sex." Yeah this is the issue currently. The Senate isn't elected or accountable so ends up just being a place for friends of politicians and back benchers who never got to speak publicly in their time in the house. Like it's just a mish mash of assholes who don't really do much.
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Oct 19, 2018 19:32
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Nocturtle posted:
Fair enough. I guess Im just worried for when we inevitably elect our own Trump. Though Ford is proving that it wont matter anyway.
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Oct 19, 2018 19:35
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mila kunis posted:Sorry if it's been posted before but this thread is big, any good guides to the candidates in the toronto municipal elections? Is there any other choice? https://twitter.com/FaithGoldy/status/1053224975061209088
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Oct 19, 2018 19:36
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Furnaceface posted:Fair enough. I guess Im just worried for when we inevitably elect our own Trump. Though Ford is proving that it wont matter anyway. Whenever Bernier becomes Prime Minister, either the entire Conservative caucus in the Senate will just pass whatever he wants or he will have enough vacancies to just jam up the Senate with idiots that will pass whatever he wants. It's not really an effective stonewalling tool.
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Oct 19, 2018 19:42
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Can we put Faith Goldy on a bus to the middle of the Atlantic?
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Oct 19, 2018 19:46
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Nocturtle posted:Also let's be honest a small office of civil service workers could probably fulfill the actual Senator responsibilities. But how does the small office of civil service workers get appointed? By the ruling government? What's to keep the Scheers, Berniers and Fords from appointing bobbleheads that just nod and rubber stamp their bills to slash worker rights and protections?
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Oct 19, 2018 19:48
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Jan posted:What's to keep the Scheers, Berniers and Fords from appointing bobbleheads that just nod and rubber stamp their bills to slash worker rights and protections? A well-regulated militia
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Oct 19, 2018 19:51
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Nocturtle posted:Likewise Canadians are not savvier than Americans or have a more decent civil society, Don't we though? We have way less poverty,less violence and a more inclusive society. Far from great, but I'd rather live amongst Canadians than Americans anyday. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 19:55
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zapplez posted:Don't we though? We have way less poverty and a more inclusive society. Far from great, but I'd rather live amongst Canadians than Americans anyday. Although canada being incredibly marginally better on most issues than the US, on average, is true, it's constantly used as an excuse to defend the status quo here.
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Oct 19, 2018 19:56
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zapplez posted:Don't we though? We have way less poverty and a more inclusive society. Far from great, but I'd rather live amongst Canadians than Americans anyday. The 2017 poverty rate in Canada was 13.9%. The 2017 poverty rate in the USA was 12.3%.
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Oct 19, 2018 19:58
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Baronjutter posted:Although canada being incredibly marginally better on most issues than the US, on average, is true, it's constantly used as an excuse to defend the status quo here. Totally agree. Good but so so so much to improve upon. I just don't agree with the thinking Canadians and Americans are inherently the same and our countries turned out different just by luck. There is such a thing as national values and I do believe that the average Canadian is much more accepting of gays or muslims or the poor than the average American. And I am proud of that.
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Oct 19, 2018 19:58
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vyelkin posted:The 2017 poverty rate in Canada was 13.9%. Wow. I am incredibly surprised. Thanks for correcting me. I think the figures might be different for the most impoverished. Will have to do some more research.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:00
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Postess with the Mostest posted:Devise a system to elect the experts and abolish the senate The USA famously elects judges, sheriffs, and other civil servants who should have some expertise in their field. Should we restrict the Senate to former MPs and / or people with (real) PhDs in Law? I say real because most honourary doctorates are in Law. Oh wait, most current senators are pretty much exactly that, plus a bunch of honourary doctorates.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:01
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ExecuDork posted:The USA famously elects judges, sheriffs, and other civil servants who should have some expertise in their field. Should we restrict the Senate to former MPs and / or people with (real) PhDs in Law? Yes but they also have to be Aboriginal. Let's get some real representation going.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:04
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vyelkin posted:The 2017 poverty rate in Canada was 13.9%. These are two different measures, no? Is there an apples to apples comparison? Edit: here is one. US 16.8%, Canada 14.2%. HappyHippo fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 20:06
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zapplez posted:Wow. I am incredibly surprised. Thanks for correcting me. A better indicator would be the Gini coefficient, but Canada isn't doing much better by that standard either. We can do better.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:08
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Arivia posted:Yes but they also have to be Aboriginal. Let's get some real representation going. I would fully support a process that rapidly (say, a year) turns over the senate to one that's majority First Nations, Metis, and Inuit.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:08
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Jan posted:A better indicator would be the Gini coefficient, but Canada isn't doing much better by that standard either. We can do better. Here seems to be a better article about the difference between the two. Canada is doing a lot better than America, but lots to be done of course. "The poverty rate is 17.0 percent in the United States, the second highest of all nations and the highest of all rich nations. The average rate of poverty is 12 percent in Canada (Burtless and Smeeding, 5). " and even more significantly "In Canada, social welfare programs bring one in two poor families out of poverty. In the U.S., the rate is one in five (Hanratty, 1992). " https://mtn150.wordpress.com/2016/03/23/poverty-in-canada-and-united-states/
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Oct 19, 2018 20:12
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zapplez posted:Totally agree. Good but so so so much to improve upon. I just don't agree with the thinking Canadians and Americans are inherently the same and our countries turned out different just by luck. There is such a thing as national values and I do believe that the average Canadian is much more accepting of gays or muslims or the poor than the average American. And I am proud of that. 2017 poll of Canadians: 74% support same-sex marriage 2017 poll of Americans: 67% support same-sex marriage 2017 poll of Canadians: 46% have a negative view of Islam 2017 poll of Americans: there isn't as straightforward a positive/negative question in this poll, but 50% say Islam is not part of mainstream American society and 44% say Islam is incompatible with democracy 2017 poll of Canadians: 28% say poor people are poor because they're lazy, 72% because of circumstance 2017 poll of Americans: 34% say poor people are poor because they're lazy, 53% because of circumstance Why am I bringing up these polls? Because I think the "we're better than America" tack is a really dangerous one. We really aren't. We have some better institutions (and some worse institutions, too), we have some better social programs, but culturally and socially Canadians and Americans are far more similar than different in our attitudes towards each other and our society. And treating our country like being a few percentage points better than America is good enough to be proud is a huge mistake that leads to us stagnating as an apathetic, good-enough, completely unambitious country.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:18
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Jan posted:But how does the small office of civil service workers get appointed? By the ruling government? What's to keep the Scheers, Berniers and Fords from appointing bobbleheads that just nod and rubber stamp their bills to slash worker rights and protections? I don't want to derail this thread too much into Senate chat, although I think it's an interesting topic. As mentioned previously IMO the senate and few other key institutional differences make Canada's govt more responsive and accountable than the American. Institutions matter! The objections you're raising here are in line with the classical arguments for an upper house comprised of gentry or whatever modern equivalent as a check against populists. Like the American electoral college it might be a good idea in principle but two centuries of empirical evidence suggest that they just don't work as intended. At best the Senate is essentially vestigial, at worst it will actively aid populists while stymieing progressive legislation (what we're seeing in the US right now). I'd argue that an undemocratic and politically empowered upper house actually increases the chance for reactionary populists to gain power, as it helps bring about the conditions that allow them to thrive. Ultimately it's up to voters to stop reactionary populists from destroying the govt, and electoral reform is a more productive way to help with that. edit: VVVVVVVV I've lived in several major Canadian and American (anglophone) cities. I can assure you that Canadians are just as terrible as Americans. This shouldn't be surprising, they're both white settler capitalist states. There are important institutional differences, as much due to historical accident as anything else, that have made Canada less of a basket case lurching towards constitutional crisis. Nocturtle fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Oct 19, 2018 |
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Oct 19, 2018 20:19
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Its funny you see those polls are proof supporting "we are the same" but to me they say by pretty wide margin we are much more accepting. I guess we just won't see things the same way.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:19
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zapplez posted:Its funny you see those polls are proof supporting "we are the same" but to me they say by pretty wide margin we are much more accepting. Yeah probably not, but I really wouldn't call those wide margins. If the average Canadian is like 5% more accepting of gay people and 2% more accepting of Muslims than the average American I don't really think that's something to celebrate.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:27
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zapplez posted:Its funny you see those polls are proof supporting "we are the same" but to me they say by pretty wide margin we are much more accepting. If by "wide margin", you mean within the range of statistical error, sure!
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Oct 19, 2018 20:35
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vyelkin posted:Why am I bringing up these polls? Because I think the "we're better than America" tack is a really dangerous one. We really aren't. We have some better institutions (and some worse institutions, too), we have some better social programs, but culturally and socially Canadians and Americans are far more similar than different in our attitudes towards each other and our society. And treating our country like being a few percentage points better than America is good enough to be proud is a huge mistake that leads to us stagnating as an apathetic, good-enough, completely unambitious country. Of course it's anecdotal, but from speaking with the kids that end up working retail with me, the ones that are lucky enough to think they're going to be robot janitors or fart app coders raking in good money know full well what's happening and what's coming and openly don't care because they think they'll be in a position to be comfortable through it all while everybody else eats poo poo. They're very polite about it, but the attitude is there nevertheless.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:37
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Yeah the thing about being better than the US is that’s a really low bar to clear. We should aim a bit higher than that. We should be comparing ourselves to the countries like Denmark or Norway that people routinely praise as progressive. Just because the US is our lovely neighbour doesn’t mean that should be the standard we aim to meet.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:46
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I think the key thing about the US and what we do deserve to give ourselves some credit for is the disconnect between the government and those popular opinions. The Liberals might be milquetoast centrists, at least they're not trying to ram through an agenda of regressing health care, abortion rights and gay marriage. If 67% of Americans support same sex marriage, then why is their government slowly shifting the political balance in order to reverse it despite this support? Of course, we're absolutely not immune to this in Canada, and a Scheer government would happily stoop to the same methods. Hence the need for some sort of checks and balance thing and the whole Senate discussion. As for progressive countries, I couldn't find an equivalent for the other questions vyelkin brought up, but here's a summary of opinion polls on same sex marriage. At 72%, Norway is surprisingly lower than you'd think.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:55
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I work with professionals who had to move to Canada because of the trump immigration policies. We can be bad but still better.
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Oct 19, 2018 20:58
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Yeah the Scandinavian countries aren’t perfect either. They’re good on economic/socialist issues but they’re still kind of lovely on things like immigration and social issues. I mean ultimately we shouldn’t be comparing ourselves to other countries at all to determine how “good” we are. We should be able to judge that on our own. The way we treat natives would still be lovely even if every other country treated their own minorities worse. I guess part of the problem is how much of the Canadian identity is wrapped up in “not being American”. Our national character should be about who we are, not who we’re not.
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Oct 19, 2018 21:04
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mila kunis posted:Sorry if it's been posted before but this thread is big, any good guides to the candidates in the toronto municipal elections? The Star has probably the most comprehensive coverage you'll find. Scroll down the page for coverage of individual wards and interviews with the major candidates. If you're not sure what ward you're in now, go to https://myvote.toronto.ca and enter your address, it'll tell you your ward and all the registered candidates for mayor, council, and school trustee. Basically coverage has been a bit lackluster thanks to DoFo sucking the air out of the election with the ward cuts.
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Oct 19, 2018 21:07
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edit: nvm covered before by others, better
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Oct 19, 2018 21:20
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vyelkin posted:2017 poll of Canadians: 74% support same-sex marriage Exactly. You see it in reactions to crime, poverty, racism, inequality, unemployment after the recession, lobbying, banking regulations, etc. It’s crazy the extent to which people have embraced the “America but a tiny bit better” idea as part of their national identity, basically guaranteeing that when they slide, we slide with them. I’m convinced that’s why a guy like Bernier has any support at all right now. It’s okay to be racist as long as you’re a little less racist than Republicans.
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Oct 19, 2018 21:26
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Postman just brought me weed. I mean he's been doing that for years but this is the first time I had to sign for it. Dude was laughing and said it's a very popular box today, being the first day it could be delivered if you bought day 1. Sent me off with "Enjoy!" lol.
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