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Tree Bucket posted:But I already live in Australia. 
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Oct 22, 2018 02:14
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I recently read the walk through Moria again, absolutely fantastic part of the book. Durin's Bane fascinates me quite a bit. It seems like even the more knowledgable memebers of the fellowship, like Gandalf and Legolas, are surprised by it being a balrog. When it killed Durin and drove out the dwarves, didn't descriptions of it reach the outside world, or did the dwarfs keep it to themselves? I assume they wouldn't know the exact nature of a balrog, and it's probably not as easy as describing one's appearance to fully encapsulate what *it* is, but it still fascinates me how the general identity is mysterious till the very end. I guess it comes down to: did the victors of the War of Wrath know that some balrogs managed to escape to the depth of the worlds? I can see it as being a "oh poo poo these things aren't long gone?!" sort of situation.
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Oct 23, 2018 14:20
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If you have to ask whether the dwarves kept something to themselves... I don’t know that I’d call Gandalf and Legolas surprised though. Neither of them is happy about it, but they both recognize it right off (particularly interesting in the case of Legolas who surely can’t have seen one in the flesh before) and Gandalf is even like “well, that makes sense with the evil magical presence I felt earlier”. It’s general knowledge at least among elves that the dwarves woke up something really bad in Moria, but there’s a lot of weird bad things underneath the world like tentacles and giant spiders that poo poo darkness, so there’s no need to assume it’s a balrog. Celeborn also didn’t know it was a balrog but he doesn’t seem surprised either, just upset.
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Oct 23, 2018 14:30
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Maybe the dwarves described it as having wings and that's why everyone was surprised when it showed up
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Oct 23, 2018 14:31
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I kind of assumed Legolas would know of Balrogs due to the stories of elves fighting them in the first age, and the whole fall of Gondolin business. And yeah, the dwarves were secretive to say the least, but them abandoning Moria can hardly be considered a secret, and to me it'd make sense that the more powerful beings of Middle Earth (the Istari, Sauron, Tom Bombadil *obviously*) would take notice and try to figure out what's up. BigglesSWE fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 14:37
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webmeister posted:Maybe the dwarves described it as having wings and that's why everyone was surprised when it showed up How dare you
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Oct 23, 2018 14:39
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WoodrowSkillson posted:How dare you Hey man, it looks cooler that way. (It absolutely does).
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Oct 23, 2018 14:42
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BigglesSWE posted:I kind of assumed Legolas would know of Balrogs due to the stories of elves fighting them in the first age, and the whole fall of Gondolin business. Yeah pretty much. Legolas as a character has his origins in the fall of Gondolin story so maybe it’s just a metajoke, even if it doesn’t line up with the character background he is given in LOTR.
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Oct 23, 2018 14:43
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BigglesSWE posted:Hey man, it looks cooler that way. This topic is literally delving too greedily and too deep
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Oct 23, 2018 14:45
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What I wonder is how much current knowledge the Balrog had of the outside world. Was it chilling in Moria because it was from Age 1 and still terrified of the Valar showing up at any moment to whoop its rear end? If it did know of what went on in the outside world, why didn't it try to join up with Sauron or even create its own power base to threaten the world? And did it command the Orcs in Moria, or did it merely tolerate their presence? I got the sense it was more of the latter. Historically you've got Azog talking trash and commanding the Orcs of Moria, but we know the Balrog was always there and that even after Dwarves killed Azog they still didn't dare enter Moria because they could sense its presence. If it was commanding the Orcs or at all invested in the Orc/Dwarf war there is no way in hell the Dwarves would have been able to win. Seems to me the most likely explanation for its actions is it plans to just sit it out until Melkor returns because no other presence on Middle Earth - including Sauron - is capable of commanding its loyalty. Though I guess there's the question of whether Sauron would even be aware of its existence. The Orcs of Moria were a distinct third faction given that they didn't go along with either Saruman or Sauron's Orcs when they captured Merry and Pippin. So if those Orcs aren't under its command it's questionable whether Sauron even knew about it since none of his servants dwelt near Moria.
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Oct 23, 2018 14:50
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And the dwarves awoke Something Awful. I also like the idea that any surviving Balrogs wouldn't necessarily be under the control of Sauron even if he managed to summon them. A bunch of ticking bombs waiting to go off on any unsuspecting underground-building dwarves, "Reign of Fire" style. The Balrogs were Maiar, correct? Beings of same nature as Sauron and Gandalf, if I understand their origin correctly?
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Oct 23, 2018 14:50
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BigglesSWE posted:
I suspect that 1) The Balrog generally didn't leave many survivor witnesses 2) The Dwarves who did survive, may not have recognized a Balrog -- they aren't elves or wizards, they have limited lifespans, so it was probably just a "what the gently caress was that". Even if Legolas hasn't seen a Balrog before himself, he's probably talked 1 on 1 to another elf who has; Gimli on the other hand may be multiple generations removed from anyone who saw Durin's Bane and the dwarves who saw Durin's Bane may not have had anyone in their entire genealogy who had before seen one. 3) Those dwarves that saw it and survived may not have spoken directly to anyone who wasn't a dwarf -- the Fellowship has an unusually high level of cross species communication and travel for Middle-Earth -- isn't Gimli the first dwarf to ever even enter Lothlorien? 4) When and if they did talk about it, they may have just used vague terms like "Durin's Bane", partly out of reverence and partly due to #2 5) Balrogs are kinda weird. They're a specific "subtype" of Maiar of Morgoth. But they aren't the *only* Maiar of Morgoth -- presumably, there's lots of other Weird rear end Magic Monster poo poo that "Durin's Bane" could have been. Basically, this is a pre-modern world and you're dealing with pre-modern oral communication about weird poo poo reported by word of mouth starting from a small number of ignorant witnesses. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 14:55
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BigglesSWE posted:The Balrogs were Maiar, correct? Beings of same nature as Sauron and Gandalf, if I understand their origin correctly? Yes, they are Maiar so beings on the same playing field as the wizards and Sauron. Sauron would have to convince one to help him, since they shared the same boss before.
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Oct 23, 2018 14:56
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Yes, they are Maiar so beings on the same playing field as the wizards and Sauron. Sauron would have to convince one to help him, since they shared the same boss before. One question is whether Sauron could have compelled the Balrog if he regained the Ring. The waking of DB is well into the Third Age and post-dates the fall of Numenor and the War of the Last Alliance.
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Oct 23, 2018 15:01
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Sauron and the Balrog could have had some tentative contact. I just recently realized this, but a significant part of the orcs occupying Moria at the time the fellowship passes through aren’t native to the mountains, they were sent from Mordor apparently in response to Balin’s colony, which they (and possibly the balrog though this is not explicit) then destroyed. Who knows if anyone ever reported back to Mordor about it though. I think the balrog never goes out because they are basically unambitious figures. Unlike Sauron, who even under Melkor goes out and sets up his own fiefdom at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the balrogs are always found only in Melkor’s guard or leading his campaigns. They’re destroying angels, not politically inclined.
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Oct 23, 2018 15:13
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Yes, they are Maiar so beings on the same playing field as the wizards and Sauron. Sauron would have to convince one to help him, since they shared the same boss before. This is true, but it's also important to recognize that Sauron is greater than all of the Balrogs. Sauron was basically Melkor's 2nd in command. Gothmog (the greatest of the Balrogs) might have been on Sauron's level of power, but even that is not really certain. So while a Balrog might not just bow to Sauron he is stronger and it would probably know it if any contact was made.
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Oct 23, 2018 15:16
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skasion posted:I think the balrog never goes out because they are basically unambitious figures. Unlike Sauron, who even under Melkor goes out and sets up his own fiefdom at Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the balrogs are always found only in Melkor’s guard or leading his campaigns. They’re destroying angels, not politically inclined. It's hard to speculate on the Balrog's motivations but my guess is that the Balrog is still freaked out from the War of Wrath. Presumably, it's that far down in the bowels of the earth because either 1) Tulkas dropped a mountain range on its head or 2) it freaked the gently caress out and decided to hide as far away as possible and then goes dormant. Then it wakes up a few millenia later and the War of Wrath is still a fresh memory for it. (Him? Her?). Plus, it's not a Maiar like Sauron that managed to talk its way out of consequences; it got *beat*, hard. I think it's staying in Moria because it's hiding. It's got a nice army of minions with the orcs and nobody bothers it and (this is very important) it can hide. Then Gandalf shows up and it can probably sense Gandalf the same way Gandalf can sense it. So it probably is afraid Gandalf is some kind of scout for the Valar and it's gonna get its rear end kicked. Gandalf doubles down with his Servant of the Secret Fire and at that point the Balrog freaks out because, oh lawd they comin', and tries to kill Gandalf before Gandalf can report back. Basically the balrog had PTSD and was afraid to go outside
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Oct 23, 2018 15:22
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Yes, they are Maiar so beings on the same playing field as the wizards and Sauron. Sauron would have to convince one to help him, since they shared the same boss before. How independent were the Balrogs? They always seemed to be deployed more like weapons than soilders. Maybe it would welcome a new boss. Sauron in the first age was very clearly a lieutenant of Morgoth, but the Balrogs seemed more like heavy artillery that would only be called out on the most powerful targets. Edit: ^^ that is a really interesting reading of the Balrog. sunday at work fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 15:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think it's staying in Moria because it's hiding. It's got a nice army of minions with the orcs and nobody bothers it and (this is very important) it can hide. Like I said though I don't think the Balrog even commands them. Or at least, not actively. It tolerates their presence, but doesn't give many shits about what they do. If it was more actively involved in running Moria, there's no way in hell the Dwarves would have prevailed in the Dwarf/Orc war. I think it mostly just chills out there, kills anyone who enters, and otherwise doesn't bother with them. As for sensing Gandalf....not sure that's the case. Gandalf has apparently been through Moria before, and so has Aragorn, so clearly powerful people can go through there without the Balrog's notice. I suspect the Balrog was roused in this case because of: 1) Pippin's idiotic actions and 2) The ring. Even if it didn't sense Gandalf, I'd be quite certain it would feel the disturbance of the ring's presence.
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Oct 23, 2018 15:32
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Ginette Reno posted:
Yeah, good point. Probably a combination of all three -- Pippin being an idiot, the ring, and Gandalf. Like, you don't notice there's a raccoon in the attic until it knocks something over, but once it does, you realize you can smell it.
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Oct 23, 2018 15:36
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The thing that draws the balrog’s attention to the fellowship is the orcs going apeshit. I don’t think he was listening to see if anyone threw a rock down a well.
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Oct 23, 2018 15:41
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skasion posted:The thing that draws the balrog’s attention to the fellowship is the orcs going apeshit. I don’t think he was listening to see if anyone threw a rock down a well. No but the rock roused the Orcs which roused the Balrog like you said. So it's pretty much Pippin's fault that things went tits up. Or :providence: since Gandalf being separated from the Fellowship led to the unique circumstances which sent Merry/Pippin to rouse the Ents, Aragorn to Rohan/Gondor, and Frodo/Sam to Mordor. So good job
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Oct 23, 2018 15:45
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True, I’m just saying I don’t think it was drawn to the ring (almost uniquely among the evil creatures encountered in the story, it shows no interest in Frodo or his burden at any time) or even to Gandalf until the two of them have their contest at the door.
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Oct 23, 2018 15:51
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skasion posted:True, I’m just saying I don’t think it was drawn to the ring (almost uniquely among the evil creatures encountered in the story, it shows no interest in Frodo or his burden at any time) or even to Gandalf until the two of them have their contest at the door. True, and that's weird considering: 1) The tentacle beast grabs Frodo first out of all the company. 2) The orc captain in Moria spears Frodo instead of anyone else Frodo's got a very punchable face I guess. or the ring
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Oct 23, 2018 15:56
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I think there is some connection between the orcs and the Balrog though. The main reason is because it shows up at the same time the orcs do! That would be a huge coincidence of they weren't connected. More likely than not the orcs follow the Balrog when it gives them orders, because of course they do. I'd say that the failure of the Balrog to intervene in the Dwarf/Goblin war probably had something to do with the fact that Galadriel is right next door to Moria. The Balrog would probably know enough to be wary of her at the least. And no Balrog is going to put itself in danger for the sake of orcs.
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Oct 23, 2018 16:39
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It shows up later than the orcs, when they have already attacked and been repulsed. It definitely has a power over the orcs that is based on the fear it causes them. But I don’t see any reason to suppose that the balrog caused the attack, which is a tactical botch that lets a laughably inferior force get away almost clean (why not send someone around to block off the other door? For that matter, why not go into the battle himself? It’s a chance for combat nowhere near any deadly falls into deep water, a balrog’s dream!) It seems more likely to me that the orcs found the fellowship first and attacked, then the balrog showed up, got the roof dropped on his head, dug himself out and rallied the orcs in pursuit. Another thing I’ve been wondering about here is: what is the origin of the burning fissure that would have blocked the fellowship’s path had they come down directly from the upper halls, rather than taking the back door? Did the balrog make this as a trap to box them in? Perhaps the fire there is just part of his magic he has cast off temporarily — when he appears in the chamber of Mazarbul, and again right before he leaps the fissure, he is a figure of darkness, with no flames present, but: quote:Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. Maybe that was his plan if he had one — just cut them off at the exit and let them walk into an inescapable situation — and the orcs jumped the gun. I don’t think the balrog intervened in the dwarf and goblin war for the same reason the elves didn’t: to wit, who cares?
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Oct 23, 2018 17:19
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Maybe a long shot, but could Gollum have led the Balrog to the Fellowship? Gollum was following them all the way through Moria so he knows where they were. But after Pippin gives away their position to the Orcs he loses any chance to grab the ring in Moria. He could view the Balrog as a nuclear option. If the Orcs, now alerted to the Fellowship get the ring his chances of taking it go way down, and at this point he probably views any Orc as an agent of Mordor. If he isn’t aware of Gandalf’s true nature as a potential match for the Balrog, and the Balrog’s history as Sauron’s co-worker he could think it would just wipe everyone out – Fellowship and Orcs alike – after which he can waltz in and pick the Ring from the ashes.
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Oct 23, 2018 18:07
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There is no evidence he interacted with the Balrog unlike the sexy questgiver, Shelob.
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Oct 23, 2018 18:10
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There is some line from Gandalf about him overhearing the orcs speaking of "fire", which I took to mean the Balrog. There are also lines implying that the orcs are afraid of it. I'm fairly certain that the orcs very much live their lives in Moria around the Balrog. I'm also pretty sure that it doesn't care for them one bit, but since they are the spawn of evil, it wouldn't actively attack them. I bought the first volume of the History of the Middle Earth today. We'll see how long it'll take me to finish it. BigglesSWE fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 18:22
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I loved how they did the moria orcs in the movies, with the implication that they worship the balrog and imitate fire and poo poo in their armor to try and look like it.
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Oct 23, 2018 21:16
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BigglesSWE posted:I bought the first volume of the History of the Middle Earth today. We'll see how long it'll take me to finish it. I spent waaaaay too long trying to piecemeal them together before i realized Amazon had them all sorted already (though i did swap out numbers 2 and 5 for the cover art continuity, as those didn't match my readers of the sil, the hobbit, and lotr). I'll pick these up individually myself as time and cash allow, but I've got The Fall of Gondolin to read next. I also just finished the Silmarillion this afternoon, for the first time in a few years. In the past few months I've re-read all of the stories again, and want to echo the sentiments from a few pages ago: I found myself much more engrossed in LotR this time around. Of course the actual re-telling of the "old lore" in those three books felt much more familiar, but I noticed myself picking up on so many more mentions and allusions to the "old" legends and stories, it was significantly more enriching than I'd imagined it would be. e: spelling Not Very Metal fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Oct 23, 2018 |
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Oct 23, 2018 21:17
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I figure that fissure was a natural feature that the Dwarves were using as defensive terrain so that if someone did bust into Khazad-dum from the east, they could just knock down the bridge and flip them the double deuce, followed by dwarfish arrows. The Balrog might have been calling on volcanic magma down low, DF style, but if you want a more boring explanation it was igniting natural mine gas.
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Oct 23, 2018 21:36
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Silmarillion is great but it’s like the cliff notes to his awesome longer versions of the stories found in HOME so def plow through those next.
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Oct 23, 2018 21:39
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Nessus posted:I figure that fissure was a natural feature that the Dwarves were using as defensive terrain so that if someone did bust into Khazad-dum from the east, they could just knock down the bridge and flip them the double deuce, followed by dwarfish arrows. The Balrog might have been calling on volcanic magma down low, DF style, but if you want a more boring explanation it was igniting natural mine gas. I’m not talking about the chasm over which the bridge of Khazad-dum passes; that was certainly the point of the bridge of Khazad-dum, but this was something different that definitely does not strike me as a feature of the design. quote:They now went on again. Before long Gimli spoke. He had keen eyes in the dark. ‘I think,’ he said, ‘that there is a light ahead. But it is not daylight. It is red. What can it be?’ Emphases mine.
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Oct 23, 2018 21:47
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Ginette Reno posted:True, and that's weird considering: I think the ring's power (when not on Sauron's hand) to influence those around it is limited to things that are pretty low on the willpower meter. I've always thought both of those examples were the ring's doing but I could never figure how the Watcher ganking Frodo would have done the ring much good. Also, just read LotR again for like the 90th time - this is a fine time for escapism - and what I think of as the bad parts were more unpleasant than ever. I like the setting of the Old Forest and the idea of Bombadil and I've defended him in the past, but he just gets to be too much. I wish he'd been handled more like Treebeard, a little lower key. The Lords Of Men human pedigree crap was especially grating, the Significant Jewelry and Swords With Names likewise, and all the crying and hand-holding and brow kissing at the end are just weird, they add nothing to our understanding of how the characters are feeling. My kids show no interest in reading it and honestly I don't feel like urging them to at this point.
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Oct 24, 2018 15:18
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I just had to spend a car ride defending Bombadil to a tolkien-casual friend (he's more of a Terry Brooks guy lmao), and man it's a tough row to hoe Even if you couch it in terms of "Well Bombadil dates back to the 30s and stories he told his kids, and he's a poetic exercise and an artifact of an earlier time in his writing that he didn't have the heart to get rid of", you still end up sounding like a drat weirdo
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Oct 24, 2018 15:42
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The defense of Bombadil is that not everything in a fantasy setting needs to make sense to the viewpoint characters, or even necessarily to the narrator. The real world doesn't fully make sense either, because human viewpoints are limited. Past that, just cite to Bored of the Rings and Tim Benzedrine, who is hilarious.
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Oct 24, 2018 15:45
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Tbh I find Treebeard almost sillier than Bombadil. Bombadil is bizarre and uncanny in a fairytale way, he seems like he could do or be anything. Treebeard on the other hand is ridiculously normal for a giant, sure he’s weird in the sense that he only drinks psychoactive river water and can’t bend at the waist but he’s disarmingly friendly and relatable to the hobbits, he’s even more avuncular than Tom despite having a much more violent and active role to play. He could have stepped right off the page of The Hobbit with the cockney trolls. At least you would think, especially after their previous encounters with magic trees, that both parties would be a little more hostile to each other. e: also I always read Treebeard with a southern accent and if Tolkien didn’t want me to do that, he shouldn’t have made that “ent/ain’t” pun skasion fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Oct 24, 2018 |
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Oct 24, 2018 16:05
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skasion posted:Tbh I find Treebeard almost sillier than Bombadil. Bombadil is bizarre and uncanny in a fairytale way, he seems like he could do or be anything. Treebeard on the other hand is ridiculously normal for a giant, sure he’s weird in the sense that he only drinks psychoactive river water and can’t bend at the waist but he’s disarmingly friendly and relatable to the hobbits, he’s even more avuncular than Tom despite having a much more violent and active role to play. He could have stepped right off the page of The Hobbit with the cockney trolls. At least you would think, especially after their previous encounters with magic trees, that both parties would be a little more hostile to each other. Treebeard's demeanor always made sense to me though in the sense that he's thousands of years old. He's possibly the oldest living creature in Middle Earth not counting Bombadil. So he's been around and seen some poo poo. He's like those 80 year old people you see in Humans of New York articles where they sound unfazed by the world around them. Like they're aware of how lovely things can be, but have learned to accept that. That's my read on Treebeard. Although obviously Treebeard doesn't accept it but he requires a bit of convincing to snap out of his apathy.
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Oct 24, 2018 18:34
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skasion posted:Tbh I find Treebeard almost sillier than Bombadil. Bombadil is bizarre and uncanny in a fairytale way, he seems like he could do or be anything. Treebeard on the other hand is ridiculously normal for a giant, sure he’s weird in the sense that he only drinks psychoactive river water and can’t bend at the waist but he’s disarmingly friendly and relatable to the hobbits, he’s even more avuncular than Tom despite having a much more violent and active role to play. He could have stepped right off the page of The Hobbit with the cockney trolls. At least you would think, especially after their previous encounters with magic trees, that both parties would be a little more hostile to each other. I always read Treebeard with a extra deep and slow version of Garrison Keillor lol. I think my problem with Tom is just too much "hey dol merry dol" what the hell is that? I found "hoom hoom hrum hoom" far more pleasant.
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Oct 24, 2018 23:17
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